Backwards Compatibility? Copying rating and/or grade to <C20
Maybe this is something I'm overlooking, or perhaps it's a, "functioning as normal" type of question, but is there a native or workaround way to copy ratings and/or simple grades from C20 back to C12 and earlier?
THE WHY
As a digital operator, sometimes I don't have the pleasure of determining which C1 version the photographer will be using once the job is done, and they go home and tweak the curve. I've been using older versions of C1 when tethering with photographers who haven't upgraded to something that runs great on my machine, but have run into some serious performance issues as of late, especially with C9.
THE COUNTER ARGUMENT (Because I've heard it before, and because it reminds me of the GFX Fuji Argument, pre-C12)
1. "Capture XX engines don't work well with previous engines, etc etc etc." Sure... but sometimes we just want to add a bit of contrast/WB/saturation for the client as a starting point (including crops and rotations) and tweak that later. Also, doesn't explain why ratings won't transfer?
2. "Photographer X should just upgrade." Doesn't quite help me
3. Something about data integrity
WHAT IVE TRIED
1. Pack EIPS in C12/C20 using the engine upon tether for the destination C1 (in this case C1 v9): No go
2. Saving a user style for the grade and applying that in older versions of C1. Works great. Extremely time consuming for multiple grades, and photographers who crop 4,000 different times
3. Making a list of selected images, using find with list with older versions of C1, and applying an overall 1-star for selects.
WHAT WORKS
1. Migrating forward. That's just dandy.
2. Exporting Lo-Res with metadata and allowing them to open it in bridge or equivalent for quick selects; great if the photographer is understanding... would still get the, "where is my crop?" question
OR
Maybe it's something laughably simple I'm missing, and I look a bit silly?
THE WHY
As a digital operator, sometimes I don't have the pleasure of determining which C1 version the photographer will be using once the job is done, and they go home and tweak the curve. I've been using older versions of C1 when tethering with photographers who haven't upgraded to something that runs great on my machine, but have run into some serious performance issues as of late, especially with C9.
THE COUNTER ARGUMENT (Because I've heard it before, and because it reminds me of the GFX Fuji Argument, pre-C12)
1. "Capture XX engines don't work well with previous engines, etc etc etc." Sure... but sometimes we just want to add a bit of contrast/WB/saturation for the client as a starting point (including crops and rotations) and tweak that later. Also, doesn't explain why ratings won't transfer?
2. "Photographer X should just upgrade." Doesn't quite help me
3. Something about data integrity
WHAT IVE TRIED
1. Pack EIPS in C12/C20 using the engine upon tether for the destination C1 (in this case C1 v9): No go
2. Saving a user style for the grade and applying that in older versions of C1. Works great. Extremely time consuming for multiple grades, and photographers who crop 4,000 different times
3. Making a list of selected images, using find with list with older versions of C1, and applying an overall 1-star for selects.
WHAT WORKS
1. Migrating forward. That's just dandy.
2. Exporting Lo-Res with metadata and allowing them to open it in bridge or equivalent for quick selects; great if the photographer is understanding... would still get the, "where is my crop?" question
OR
Maybe it's something laughably simple I'm missing, and I look a bit silly?
0
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I summarize to check I understand your post correctly:
You are a digital tech. You do some rating, cropping in Capture One before you hand over the images to the photographer. The photographer does not see the rating/crop because he is using an older version of Capture One. I assume you work with sessions.
Q: Is there a simple way to downgrade?
A: No.
Elaborate response: to make the photographer see your edits, the photographer's Capture One must be the same or later as yours.0 -
Paul_Steunebrink wrote:
I summarize to check I understand your post correctly:
You are a digital tech. You do some rating, cropping in Capture One before you hand over the images to the photographer. The photographer does not see the rating/crop because he is using an older version of Capture One. I assume you work with sessions.
Q: Is there a simple way to downgrade?
A: No.
Elaborate response: to make the photographer see your edits, the photographer's Capture One must be the same or later as yours.
Thanks Paul, your summary was correct, this was my working assumption. Though, I must admit, I am baffled as to why this is the case. It seems like a very deliberate decision by Phase to exclude backwards compatibility across things that are universal in both values and code across things that both engines may include. The following is obviously not directed at you, as it's more of a rant than anything, looking back over it.
For all use cases I've tried to far (provided it is not a new feature that is not available to older versions), I can get files working both ways by making a few changes to the metadata COS files, that are essentially identifier values:
I can get get values from C12 to work in C11 for single images by changing the directory of CaptureOne/Settings120/YYYMMDD_FILENAME.CR2.cos to read Settings110 instead, and modifying the *.cos file to read:<E K="Author" V="11.3.1.6 Pro Mac" />
instead of<E K="Author" V="12.0.3.28 Pro Mac" />
and<VAR Engine="1100">
<E K="LastMetadataModificationDate" V="1576894011.077180" />
<E K="LowResProcessCounter" V="4" />
<E K="ProductID" V="CanonEOS5DMk4" />
<E K="SyncProcessCounter" V="2" />
<E K="UUID" V="E6060E10-DA2A-4186-B568-9CDE3BF32832" />
<DL>
Instead of<VAR Engine="1200">
<E K="LastMetadataModificationDate" V="1576893087.060189" />
<E K="LowResProcessCounter" V="31" />
<E K="ProductID" V="CanonEOS5DMk4" />
<E K="SyncProcessCounter" V="1" />
<E K="UUID" V="2FE82345-51D1-441C-A7FB-011C29737AB3" />
<DL>
From this code, it seems that Capture One uses a simple, If version<current version, then update these identifier values. If version>current version, then do nothing. This metadata code has probably changed a lot of times, so the example I'm using is probably very specific to the latest versions, but you can simply allow a program to ignore values it does not understand.
Furthermore, as we have run into quite a few issues of late with Capture One 20 and a 16" MacBook Pro, the idea that I can't pull out a backup laptop running an older version of Capture One to continue working with a grade and/or ratings is a bit of a worrying issue, and one that is having me reconsider recommending anyone upgrade, which I would assume is at odds with what Phase One wants; they *WANT* us to upgrade right?
I need some kind of solution. At the moment, i'm exporting lo-res jpegs with metadata and having an art director/photographer open it in bridge/photomechanic/whatever do their selects at it. In other cases, I'm suggesting upgrading to at least Capture 12, but I work with more than enough photographers to where telling them to upgrade is just not a viable option, and doesn't solve my problem in the immediate time-frame, when arriving on set.
I'm considering having someone program some kind of batch find & replace software for all the metadata so that I can run comfortably in a newer version of C1, and be comfortable that I won't have to spend hours after a shoot, with no overtime, manually copying grades and ratings over to whatever the client has chosen to use.0 -
interesting to read that there is no easy way to have some backward compatibly and I can´t believe that your needs are unique . the DNG path would be the most obvious and open solution imho but p1 crippled DNG support for probably the very same reason they have no backward compatibly with EIP.
when p1 would do open and transparent surveys better data exchange options would for sure make it to the top ranks among pro user.0 -
JNOR wrote:
(...)
Though, I must admit, I am baffled as to why this is the case. It seems like a very deliberate decision by Phase to exclude backwards compatibility across things that are universal in both values and code across things that both engines may include.
The reason that backward compatibility is not as obvious as you might want and would expect, is that later versions of Capture One and their newer Engines may make adjustments that are not compatible with earlier versions. For example, the new HDR adjustments (White and Black) are unknown in CO12. And the existing HDR adjustments (Highlight and Shadow) now have both positive and negative values. CO12 or earlier are not able to understand that and not coded to handle these unfamiliar adjustments. The support department would be flooded with issues of users complaining it is not working.
To prevent issues, there is no backward compatibility out of the box. You can edit the .cos files, at your own risk.
Now the solution... (drum roll)
That said since we are discussing rating and tagging between versions of Capture One, why not use XMP files? Set your Metadata sync settings to Full Sync (Preferences, Image tab) and Capture One will write all ratings and tags to the XMP files as well as the .cos files.
Now, when opened in an older version of Capture One, the user sees your ratings/tags in his older Capture One because the XMP files are in the image folder, not in the adjacent Settings folder, which is version related.
The values in the XMP file should be loaded on first opening in the clients computer with Capture One, without any change to his or her's preference settings.
I have not tried this but took forward to your reply if you had time to try this out.0 -
Paul_Steunebrink wrote:
JNOR wrote:
(...)
Though, I must admit, I am baffled as to why this is the case. It seems like a very deliberate decision by Phase to exclude backwards compatibility across things that are universal in both values and code across things that both engines may include.
The reason that backward compatibility is not as obvious as you might want and would expect, is that later versions of Capture One and their newer Engines may make adjustments that are not compatible with earlier versions. For example, the new HDR adjustments (White and Black) are unknown in CO12. And the existing HDR adjustments (Highlight and Shadow) now have both positive and negative values. CO12 or earlier are not able to understand that and not coded to handle these unfamiliar adjustments. The support department would be flooded with issues of users complaining it is not working.
To prevent issues, there is no backward compatibility out of the box. You can edit the .cos files, at your own risk.
Now the solution... (drum roll)
That said since we are discussing rating and tagging between versions of Capture One, why not use XMP files? Set your Metadata sync settings to Full Sync (Preferences, Image tab) and Capture One will write all ratings and tags to the XMP files as well as the .cos files.
Now, when opened in an older version of Capture One, the user sees your ratings/tags in his older Capture One because the XMP files are in the image folder, not in the adjacent Settings folder, which is version related.
The values in the XMP file should be loaded on first opening in the clients computer with Capture One, without any change to his or her's preference settings.
I have not tried this but took forward to your reply if you had time to try this out.
sad that you care more about the software you promote and try to sell presets for than the needs of real world user in real world scenarios. maybe it is because the impact of the problem is outside the scope of your imagination or experience but probably both. otherwise I simply don't understand why it seems impossible to simply acknowledge that things could be improved in this regard. your argument is even more questionable because when you upgrade an image with c1 12 HDR settings applied to engine 20 there is no change in appearance !! the same happened from 11 to 12, 10 to 11... and even when there are small changes they would not amount to a problem in the workflow scenario the op described. with some good will it should be possible and easy to add some kind of backward compatibly. it is a business question and not a technical one.0 -
Horseoncowboy wrote:
it is a business question and not a technical one.
How do you know?0 -
@Horseoncowboy
With the greatest of respect, I think you should stop taking out your grievances on other members of this forum. We are, after all, just your fellow users of Capture One, not Capture One staff. You are free to make suggestions for improvements to Capture One in a support case. Or if you really don’t like it, you are free to switch to other apps - there are quite a few out there. But I take exception to your rudeness to fellow users here, some of whom are my friends.
Season’s greetings.
Ian0 -
Ian3 wrote:
@Horseoncowboy
With the greatest of respect, I think you should stop taking out your grievances on other members of this forum. We are, after all, just your fellow users of Capture One, not Capture One staff. You are free to make suggestions for improvements to Capture One in a support case. Or if you really don’t like it, you are free to switch to other apps - there are quite a few out there. But I take exception to your rudeness to fellow users here, some of whom are my friends.
Season’s greetings.
Ian
….hm ian, than maybe your friends should simply stop acting this way. the OP had layed out a very clear case. It is of course a niche issue but it affects his job and I’m very convinced that he is not the only one who would benefit from some backward compatibly so what is not agreeable here ?
there is also no need for 100 % accuracy and with some good will it should be possible for p1 to add some code to the EIP export and offer ( limited ) backward compatibly but to suggest that user are too stupid to understand that not all settings can be translated to older versions with 100% accuracy and so support is flooded as an argument against an improvement is very offensive and stupid in my view. this is also about what hobbyists get wrong about professional priorities btw.
It is also not a matter of like or dislike, c1 is simply a software tool I pay for which does some things better than other apps so I use it but I ´m not aware that by using c1 I have automatically agreed to become a member of a cult which does not allow to suggest improvements and criticise the app.
we all have very different needs but if you see us as a user community we should see every suggestion for improvement justified because maybe some day we benefit from it too but to argue against it just to proof that c1 is always right, a high priority agenda for some user here, serves nobody this should worry you.....0
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