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Keywording

Cass Cassim
While I know it does not much good, I continue to make comments in this forum all the way back to version 9, and now 20 (and counting no doubt), whereby we still do not have a couple of easy embellishments for key-wording, namely: -

1. No ability to filter keywords on export
2. Synonyms, either automatically from a reference file or manually
3. No proper keyword sets

Number 1, the thing that is so important when one has categories in the keyword hierarchical structure, but do not wish the category title to be exported, could be as easy as adding a field in the export dialogue where we can enter a filter keyword. So, if I have a hierarchy of: -

> ~colours
>> primary colour
>>> blue
>>> red
>>> green
>> pastel colour
>>> light-blue
>>> light-pink
>>> light-green

and I have added the blue and light-blue to an image, when I do an export, I could specify the tilde ~ character as my filter, and the resultant file would have keywords: primary color, blue, pastel colour, light-blue, but not ~colours, since it contains the tilde. One simple filter field could allow us the ability to filter out outputs; maybe about an hour of programming...

Not that anyone will care much, but just to put my comments here in case one day someone from PhaseOne takes note, or perhaps to gain some additional comments/support for the notion that the abilities of the keywording system have not changed for more than four major version upgrades, despite being inferior to their nearest competitor's software in this regard. I am staying with v 11 until either PhaseOne finally adds these features or someone else besides Adobe does...

I wait... 😎
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Kommentare

12 Kommentare

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  • NNN636728902051422072
    Just like me. The keyword library implementation is very poor and slow aswell. It almost prevented me from moving to c1. I spent a lot of time in creating an extended keyword library in LR. Almost complete unusable in c1.

    Looks like not many are complaining about this implementation though. Astonishing because c1 was primarely build for the professionals and IMHO good keywording is essential for them.
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  • Paul Steunebrink
    NNN636728902051422072 wrote:
    I spent a lot of time in creating an extended keyword library in LR. Almost complete unusable in c1.

    Could you perhaps elaborate a bit more on that statement? I mean, 'almost complete unusable' is quite a strong statement but I have a hard time figuring out what makes it that way?
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  • SFA
    NNN636728902051422072 wrote:


    Looks like not many are complaining about this implementation though. Astonishing because c1 was primarely build for the professionals and IMHO good keywording is essential for them.


    Professional at what level though?

    If, for example, one shoots weddings, how complicated does the keywording requirement become for each shoot?

    If one shoots news and markets the shots through agency I would assume that the initial keywording, if used, would be a lot simpler than than the agency might later apply through their corporate standard fully IPTC complaint DAM libraries.

    If one is a scientific archivist recording examples of flora and fauna to the deepest levels of categorisation then the level of complexity could be intense but the search needs could be very broad. However one might feel obliged to ensure that a user could search for and find a most obscure word quickly and easily even if that search may never be made. For the most part such level of detail when searching is unlikely to be heavily used.

    I regularly shoot some sporting events that have some fairly simple levels of keywording requirement (assuming there is any requirement at all) but that are often complicated by quite random factors due to what happens on the day.

    I can either decide to deal with the complications and adjust accordingly or work at a simpler level at the risk of compromising my retrieval consistency over the whole archive. (If I ever need to do any retrieval in the future) .

    Much of the problem is not related to applying the information; rather it is a challenge to discover the adjustments (accurately) and decide how best to apply them usefully. Well, that and deciding if doing so will be worth the effort.

    The problem, for me, is the nature of the event and the information sources available for it rather than the application of the keywords which I find works well.

    Grant
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  • Ian Leslie
    Indeed. I moved my LR keyword list that I started from https://www.controlledvocabulary.com/ over to C1 with no pain at all and am happily using it just like I used to with no perceived difference. Granted I have no hard requirements from external sources that I have to meet but I keyword images nearly every time I use C1 and output for printing, sharing a clients with no issues at all.
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  • Irvin Gomez
    NNN636728902051422072 wrote:
    Astonishing because c1 was primarely build for the professionals and IMHO good keywording is essential for them.


    Actually, professionals are a tiny portion of the people who buy cameras and raw processing software. The middle-aged dentist, engineer, accountant, etc., it the best and most important customer today.
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  • NNN637112411336198791
    IanL wrote:
    Indeed. I moved my LR keyword list that I started from https://www.controlledvocabulary.com/ over to C1 with no pain at all and am happily using it just like I used to with no perceived difference. Granted I have no hard requirements from external sources that I have to meet but I keyword images nearly every time I use C1 and output for printing, sharing a clients with no issues at all.


    I wish I could say the same. I'm trialling C1 because I'd like to move away from LR 6 but keywords are a disaster zone for me. I have imported my catalog and my collections vanished, new keywords have been created from GPS city/location/sublocation etc data, some keywords which should be nested under higher level keywords also appear at the top level, some of these point to photos which should not have this tag and certainly don't show in LR with the tag.

    Correcting the errors appears to be impossible; if I select one of the extra keywords which has been generated and delete it, a scroll bar comes up, takes some time, says it has deleted the keyword, the keyword vanishes and then a few seconds later it's back. Sometimes it shows a photo count, sometimes it shows zero. Some of them showing a photo count, when selected, show zero photos. I have created new keywords to test the functionality and I can't delete them. It's just a horrible mess. It's hardly worth mentioning that assigning keywords is a long way from intuitive since that's not a bug just design.

    All this from the country that gave us Carlsberg. 😕 As a final blow, it's a damn good editor. ☹️

    John
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  • Ian Leslie
    Well that does sound sucky and buggy. I don't know what to suggest - other than contacting support and seeing if they can help.
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  • SFA
    NNN637112411336198791 wrote:
    IanL wrote:
    Indeed. I moved my LR keyword list that I started from https://www.controlledvocabulary.com/ over to C1 with no pain at all and am happily using it just like I used to with no perceived difference. Granted I have no hard requirements from external sources that I have to meet but I keyword images nearly every time I use C1 and output for printing, sharing a clients with no issues at all.


    I wish I could say the same. I'm trialling C1 because I'd like to move away from LR 6 but keywords are a disaster zone for me. I have imported my catalog and my collections vanished, new keywords have been created from GPS city/location/sublocation etc data, some keywords which should be nested under higher level keywords also appear at the top level, some of these point to photos which should not have this tag and certainly don't show in LR with the tag.

    Correcting the errors appears to be impossible; if I select one of the extra keywords which has been generated and delete it, a scroll bar comes up, takes some time, says it has deleted the keyword, the keyword vanishes and then a few seconds later it's back. Sometimes it shows a photo count, sometimes it shows zero. Some of them showing a photo count, when selected, show zero photos. I have created new keywords to test the functionality and I can't delete them. It's just a horrible mess. It's hardly worth mentioning that assigning keywords is a long way from intuitive since that's not a bug just design.

    All this from the country that gave us Carlsberg. 😕 As a final blow, it's a damn good editor. ☹️

    John


    Did you run a cleanse of the source data before importing?

    I'm not tying to be critical - just asking.
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  • NNN636728902051422072
    Could you perhaps elaborate a bit more on that statement?


    In Lr I make extensive use of synonyms.
    For instance:
    I do a lot of nature photography. For each specie I determine its common used name and also in latin, dutch,english, sometimes in german or french aswell (depending on the location where the picture was made) and add well known alternative names (multi langual when possible). I add all these extra names as a synonym to the main keyword.
    This is a lot of work for each specie..

    When i have a new (sub)specie I just have to specify that one and put it in place in the hierarchy of the speci. So each keyword can easily contain 4-6 synonyms. Once defined I just have to add its main keyword to a new image and the whole branch and according synonyms are linked automaticaly. Peace of cake.

    Importing the list in c1 will drop ALL synonyms and only the main keyword remains!! Without that option it is undoable to find out all names over and over again when a new photo is added.

    Thereby in LR I can use a keyword as an organisational item in the hierarchy and mark it as a label only keyword. This keyword will not be exported. (Like colors in: colors\blue,colors\yellow,colors\red. etc It doesn,t make any sense to export the keyword 'colors' as a keyword but colors can be of great value in organizing the library)
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  • NNN637112411336198791
    SFA wrote:
    NNN637112411336198791 wrote:
    IanL wrote:
    Indeed. I moved my LR keyword list that I started from https://www.controlledvocabulary.com/ over to C1 with no pain at all and am happily using it just like I used to with no perceived difference. Granted I have no hard requirements from external sources that I have to meet but I keyword images nearly every time I use C1 and output for printing, sharing a clients with no issues at all.


    I wish I could say the same. I'm trialling C1 because I'd like to move away from LR 6 but keywords are a disaster zone for me. I have imported my catalog and my collections vanished, new keywords have been created from GPS city/location/sublocation etc data, some keywords which should be nested under higher level keywords also appear at the top level, some of these point to photos which should not have this tag and certainly don't show in LR with the tag.

    Correcting the errors appears to be impossible; if I select one of the extra keywords which has been generated and delete it, a scroll bar comes up, takes some time, says it has deleted the keyword, the keyword vanishes and then a few seconds later it's back. Sometimes it shows a photo count, sometimes it shows zero. Some of them showing a photo count, when selected, show zero photos. I have created new keywords to test the functionality and I can't delete them. It's just a horrible mess. It's hardly worth mentioning that assigning keywords is a long way from intuitive since that's not a bug just design.

    All this from the country that gave us Carlsberg. 😕 As a final blow, it's a damn good editor. ☹️

    John


    Did you run a cleanse of the source data before importing?

    I'm not tying to be critical - just asking.


    That's ok, I understand. Not sure what you mean by a cleanse. I always keep my keywords tidy. I do sometime make mistakes but I usually spot them straight away and tidy them up. They were cwertainly in good shape prior to importing to C1. I tried ACDSee about 12 months ago on the recommendatio nof a friend (poor editor and spins off hidden, large, JPEGs all over the place) and On1 (pretty good but buggy) and I had no problems with keywords with either of them. On1 did flatten the hierarchy and reduce everything to lower case but was otherwise fine.

    I might create another catalog and try importing just the images, not the catalog, see what that does, just out of curousity. Of course if you have any suggestions... 😄

    John
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  • NNN637112411336198791
    IanL wrote:
    Well that does sound sucky and buggy. I don't know what to suggest - other than contacting support and seeing if they can help.


    I'm reluctant to do that as I don't have a specific complaint, just it's generally a mess. I have raised a ticket ref C1 creating Keywords from GPS data but I've not heard back yet. I guess trialling a product just after the release of a new version is a dumb idea.

    John
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  • SFA
    NNN637112411336198791 wrote:
    IanL wrote:
    I guess trialling a product just after the release of a new version is a dumb idea.

    John


    Not really but it can be a busy period and perhaps especially so at this time of year. But with Apple and Microsoft tending to provide OS updates with significant changes around this time and a need to react to any operational changes those updates may include there is probably not much flexibility available for scheduling an update at a different time of the year.

    Probably other factors too.


    Grant
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