Keystoning – independent vertical/horizontal corrections?
As far as I can see, there's no way of making keystone corrections vertically and horizontally independently of each other, that is, there's no way of unlocking the four lines so that you have eight adjustment points rather than four. This makes it very easy to inadvertently throw off the adjustments you've already made on one axis when making adjustments on the other. And in many cases having to place the adjustment points in the same places vertically and horizontally will give you inaccurate results as you can only use part of a line/edge for reference.
Does anyone have any tricks or recommendations how to compensate for this? So far I've used the guides, but it often takes many incremental attempts to reach an acceptable result.
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I assume that respective horizontal and vertical keystone feature does not provide what you are looking for? 0 -
Paul_Steunebrink wrote:
I assume that respective horizontal and vertical keystone feature does not provide what you are looking for?
As far as I can see, they're locked in a rectangle, so that you can't adjust them independently of each other. The four adjustment points you get with Keystone Vertical are the same four adjustment points you get with Keystone Horizontal.0 -
thomaskyhn wrote:
Paul_Steunebrink wrote:
I assume that respective horizontal and vertical keystone feature does not provide what you are looking for?
As far as I can see, they're locked in a rectangle, so that you can't adjust them independently of each other. The four adjustment points you get with Keystone Vertical are the same four adjustment points you get with Keystone Horizontal.
I am not sure I follow you here. In particular the phrase "... are the same four adjustment points ..." puzzles me. I do not feel they are the same.
I just try to understand your issue.0 -
On the toolbar if you press and hold the keystone icon you get three options like this. Is that what you wanted?
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49264180276_a2026b34cf_z.jpg
Ian
Edited to add: or adjust the horizontal and vertical sliders in the keystone tool.0 -
Ian3 wrote:
On the toolbar if you press and hold the keystone icon you get three options like this. Is that what you wanted?
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49264180276_a2026b34cf_z.jpg
Ian
Edited to add: or adjust the horizontal and vertical sliders in the keystone tool.
Those are the ones I was referring to.0 -
Paul_Steunebrink wrote:
thomaskyhn wrote:
Paul_Steunebrink wrote:
I assume that respective horizontal and vertical keystone feature does not provide what you are looking for?
As far as I can see, they're locked in a rectangle, so that you can't adjust them independently of each other. The four adjustment points you get with Keystone Vertical are the same four adjustment points you get with Keystone Horizontal.
I am not sure I follow you here. In particular the phrase "... are the same four adjustment points ..." puzzles me. I do not feel they are the same.
I just try to understand your issue.
What I mean is that the four adjustment points you get when you select Keystone Vertical are the same as the ones you get when you select Keystone Horizontal, they're not two independent sets of four adjustment points. If you select Keystone Vertical and move the four adjustment points and then select Keystone Horizontal, you'll see that the adjustment points are in the same place you moved them while Keystone Vertical was selected.0 -
Here's a screen recording.
https://i.imgur.com/pEvfwlo.mp4
(Sorry, I couldn't figure out how to embed it.)0 -
An example.
In this photo, in order to make the most precise keystone corrections you would need 8 adjustment points, like this:
https://i.imgur.com/72rmwCA.jpg
With 4 adjustment points, you're left with this (the double vertical line to left indicates how far the reference line in the photo extends within the rectangle):
https://i.imgur.com/4Fm8Rde.jpg0 -
I think I understand what you're saying. If I do, then...
- Yes, there are 4 set points and they default to the same starting position in each new image and stay where I put them if I do multiple Keystone adjustments in a particular image (they reset if I change to a different image and return to the first one). In other words, when I set the 4 points when working on an image, they stay set for that image until I move them, and I can choose between applying only vertical, only horizontal, or both corrections together for that image. The points reset to default when I move to another image, but they are remembered for images I've worked on. This is how I'd expect them to behave. If I want to use the same settings for other images, I just Copy/Apply the correction in the usual way.
- Alternatively (and for me less precise) is to use the sliders in the Keystone tool.0 -
Nature Isme wrote:
I think I understand what you're saying. If I do, then...
- Yes, there are 4 set points and they default to the same starting position in each new image and stay where I put them if I do multiple Keystone adjustments in a particular image (they reset if I change to a different image and return to the first one). In other words, when I set the 4 points when working on an image, they stay set for that image until I move them, and I can choose between applying only vertical, only horizontal, or both corrections together for that image. The points reset to default when I move to another image, but they are remembered for images I've worked on. This is how I'd expect them to behave. If I want to use the same settings for other images, I just Copy/Apply the correction in the usual way.
- Alternatively (and for me less precise) is to use the sliders in the Keystone tool.
I'm afraid that's not what I meant. The question regards the number of adjustment points. As far as I can see there's only one set of four points, locked in a rectangle – as opposed to two sets of four, four points for vertical adjustments and four points for horizontal adjustments.
Here's an illustration:
https://i.imgur.com/dVhEluR.jpg0 -
For a vertical adjustment, the only thing you need to be able to do is align the guides along lines that should be vertical - edges of a building, etc. How far up or down the edges you position the handles is immaterial - all that matters is getting the guide accurately positioned along the edge. I generally try to put the handles as high and low as is convenient, because when you move one of the handles, the line rotates about the other handle, and the wider the spacing between them, the easier it is to fine-tune the positioning.
The same principle applies to a horizontal adjustment.
I agree with your observation that if you use the vertical tool first, and then the horizontal one, you find the handles positioned where you left them after using the first tool.
I haven't grasped why using the combined tool doesn't work for you. The principle would be to find a quadrilateral that should have right angles and position the four handles at the corners of it. (Sometimes the corners aren't marked by anything and it is a matter of aligning the guides along edges that should be vertical and horizontal.) It is often quite hard to get it right - a small error in positioning the handles can get the result wrong, in which case I tweak them and try again.
I'm finding it hard to work out how your eight handles would work.
Ian0 -
Also, looking at your diagrams, there is no need to position the handles of, for instance the top red line at physical corners. You obviously want the lines to go along suitable edges, but there is not reason why the handles shouldn't be in thin air as it were.
Ian0 -
The only photo I had readily to hand to illustrate what I mean.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49264847213_2bfdcfb6b2.jpg
The top left handle is in midair, but the lines are well-aligned.
The result comes out quite well. And it could be tweaked a bit if I didn't like the result.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49264846868_6dd343d34f.jpg
Ian0 -
Ian3 wrote:
For a vertical adjustment, the only thing you need to be able to do is align the guides along lines that should be vertical - edges of a building, etc. How far up or down the edges you position the handles is immaterial - all that matters is getting the guide accurately positioned along the edge. I generally try to put the handles as high and low as is convenient, because when you move one of the handles, the line rotates about the other handle, and the wider the spacing between them, the easier it is to fine-tune the positioning.
The same principle applies to a horizontal adjustment.
I agree with your observation that if you use the vertical tool first, and then the horizontal one, you find the handles positioned where you left them after using the first tool.
I haven't grasped why using the combined tool doesn't work for you. The principle would be to find a quadrilateral that should have right angles and position the four handles at the corners of it. (Sometimes the corners aren't marked by anything and it is a matter of aligning the guides along edges that should be vertical and horizontal.) It is often quite hard to get it right - a small error in positioning the handles can get the result wrong, in which case I tweak them and try again.
I'm finding it hard to work out how your eight handles would work.
Ian
Here's an example (posted above too):
https://i.imgur.com/72rmwCA.jpg
As you can see, to get the most precise adjustments you would need eight adjustment points, two for each line.
With four adjustment points, this it what it looks like (note the double vertical line on the left which marks the section that is aligned with a line in the photo):
https://i.imgur.com/4Fm8Rde.jpg
Also, as I mentioned initially, the four lines being locked together in a rectangle makes it very easy to inadvertently throw off the adjustments you’ve made on one axis when making adjustments on the other.0 -
Ian3 wrote:
The only photo I had readily to hand to illustrate what I mean.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49264847213_2bfdcfb6b2.jpg
The top left handle is in midair, but the lines are well-aligned.
The result comes out quite well. And it could be tweaked a bit if I didn't like the result.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49264846868_6dd343d34f.jpg
Ian
I see your point here, but – as my example shows – this doesn't always work; sometimes a rectangle won't allow you to use the lines in the photo for alignment. And as I just mentioned, having the ends of the lines locked together means that you easily mess up adjustments on one axis when making adjustments on the other.0 -
One more example. If you have a photo in which these are the only lines you can use for reference when making keystone corrections, what do you do when the adjustment points are locked in a rectangle?
https://i.imgur.com/pvNPMUR.jpg0 -
OK, I agree that is awkward!
Ian
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49267701608_9325ca604e.jpg0 -
Ian3 wrote:
OK, I agree that is awkward!
Ian
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49267701608_9325ca604e.jpg
Thanks – that is indeed a solution, though, as you say, an awkward one.
It would be a bit easier if, by using a modifier key for instance, you could limit the possible movements of the adjustment points so that they would only move along one axis. This would prevent you from messing up the adjustments you'd already made along the other axis.0
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