New Model Camera Support "What If ..."?
Looking at the future I have a question about ways round issues should C1 be a bit slow on adding support for a new camera model.
Were I to buy a camera soon after release and C1 took time adding support for raw images (not tethering), would a route to use the camera be to first convert the C1 unsupported raw images into DNG format (e.g. Adobe DG converter) and then import the DNG files rather than the raws that were not yet supported.
I'm just looking at "what if..." scenarios as I'm keen on getting a higher spec mirrorless camera and nothing released yet that meets my needs so probably waiting for a new model which will mean delays in software support?
My concern comes from a few years ago when I purchased a new model Sony and had to shot jpeg for one trip (couple of months) as Adobe were rather slow adding raw support for the camera.
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In the past I have found that by converting yet unsupported Panasonic RAW images into 16 bit TIFFs (using Silkypix) I could use these images in Capture One until Capture one supported the RAW images.
I don't think that Capture One support for new cameras arrives any more quickly than for Adobe products. Often users become rather impatient for support to be provided. If you were to do a search on the Nikon Z7, you could estimate the typical time it takes for new camera support.
Usually the vendor will supply a photo tools that can read the RAW image files, and then edit them or convert them to another format.
But then when the software support arrives, you must decide what to do with the RAW Images and TIFFs, especially the TIFFs that have been edited.
I am usually reluctant to buy a new camera model soon after it appears on the market. The price is at its peak. If the camera has a problem, it may take a few months to be dsicovered - consider the recent case of the Olympus OMD E-M5 mark iii and its tripod mount breaking. Or the debacle with the Nikon 600 and oil. Also a competitor may appear that is even better. And then there is the problem with software support for RAW files from Capture One Adobe and so forth.
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Hi Psamathe,
Unfortunately, the Capture One policy until now didn't allow to read and process RAW images issued from a non-supported camera even when converted into DNG. Usually, there are a few updates over the year following the release date of a new upgrade (about the end of the year until now), but nobody can tell you how long Capture One will take to support a new camera.
Robert
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Having had to go jpeg when Adobe were slow implementing new camera support, I think such a C1 policy makes switching to C1 a "non-starter" for me. (I'm currently evaluating as I desperately want to depart Adobe, but not if that is going may be limiting me in future)
Adobe seem to be having frequent updates these days but having to wait for "a few a year" to discover I could start shooting raw.
Maybe I'm over-concerned but I've suffered bad limitations over this in the past and am waiting for a new model of camera to be released (probably) - so not even accepting DNGs would make switching to C1 too much of a risk.
Thanks for letting me know and avoiding problems later.
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I agree about not buying new cameras before support - but I tend to go off travelling to amazing places for e.g 4+ months so want "the right camera" if it's available and process images whilst travelling. So waiting did not happen and next trip who knows what cameras might be released and when travel can happen again.
For some reason I can't present technical reasons for I don't really like TIFF. Maybe because of storage sizes (but I've never compared to RAW for same image).
When I was limited to jpeg as Adobe were a bit slow, they weren't terrible, just that I headed off before they released it and terrible internet when travelling means updating was not practical. At the moment Adobe seem to be doing monthly updates which include "new cameras and lenses" (though I've not looked at how long since these newly supported models were available to buy).
I've also been reading internet reviews and whilst there can be "zealots" and "fanboys" (for different companies), generally C1 is said to be slower than Adobe and I'd assumed the DNG route would be a way round waiting for such support (if Adobe were quicker than C1).
But this has impacted me in the past so I could not make a change that might put me there again (however much I want to leave Adobe "ecosystem").
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I think that you have made the decision to stick with Adobe.
It could indeed be true that a new camera (that you haven't selected yet and doesn't exist now) might not be supported in time for the trip that you haven't planned yet. And then you might be stuck with JPEGs for a while.
Good luck with your planning.
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I'd pretty well decided to switch to C1, but I need to learn from past issues. I love the C1 interface and don't find any of the "takes some learning" some reviewers go on about. Of course there are things LR does C1 does not but I can find work-rounds OK (e.g. synonyms on keywords). And I far prefer the default on import image from both my cameras in C1.
My trips are always imminent (it was only the current pandemic that brought me home and I'm frustrated at not being able to get away again). Last trip decided I need to travel with different gear and existing body is far from suitable - hence change. If flights resumed tomorrow I'd get a EOS R (which would not be a problem) but it's somewhat behind Sony and likely that Canon will be taking several steps forward soon and as no flights I'll wait and see what is released.
As you pointed out, there's a risk in early adopting. Trip where I had to shoot jpegs, camera had an issue and on return the camera had to be replaced; fortunately the issue did not stop the camera working.
(I don't tend to plan trips, more decide on a region and go and travel around deciding each day what to do/where to go tomorrow).
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Something like an EOS R will have very good JPEGs, and you did mention using JPEGs before.
What you might do, while your camaera is not supported is to take all the images as JPEG-RAW pairs and store and back them up together. As preparation for later, rename the JPEG and RAW images so they have the same root name, so that when you sort by name, the JPEG and RAW images are grouped together.
Until RAW support is available, only import the JPEGs into Capture One, do any editting and organisation with the JPEGs.
After RAW support is available, make a user collection especially for the purpose of synchronising the olders RAWs with the JPEGs.
Import the older RAWs into the user collection, and copy the corresponding JPEGs into the same collection. Sort by name.
Now copy the adjustments and metadata from each JPEG to its corresponding RAW, which will be beside it, this can be done in one action for each pair with C1. You will likely have to touch up some of the adjustments for the RAWs.
If you have done most of your organisation with Smart Albums, then there will be little work to get them into the same user selection.
If you ahve a complex arrangment of user collections, you can use my Applescript to find which user collection the JPEGs are in.
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Good plan (maybe the way round).
Had an idea - I'm looking for an EXIF editor to "hack" some of my existing RAWs to create a non-existent camera and see what happens on import to C1.
One mistake I made in LR is I take a lot of photos of each place and when I go through I only delete the disasters and only process the better ones so plenty of unedited not great ones and in LR I've never rated or flagged the ones I've edited. So e.g. using a colour label to flag edited ones.
I don't think I'm good enough to spend ages processing so the time is more from the numbers of photos than the time to re-process (and previous travels have been with iPad and LR-CC and when I get home I bin the CC stuff and re-import to LR Classic (as process results from LR-CC on iPad are "poor"). And the tags, titles, etc. are more important than processing (for me) (and LR-CC does not sync tags to Classic - dog's breakfast) so keeping address, title, etc. copying jpeg to raw later would preserve those.
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I'm looking for an EXIF editor
ExifTool. Yeah, you'll have to launch a terminal window and use the command line to unlock all of its many capabilities. It's worth it.
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@Walter Rowe Thanks for pointing that out. Always better to use real data.
It is possible that Capture One's M.O. is changing as a result of the new ownership last year. (June??)
Eric
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Done some experimenting (and please somebody point out if I've messed-up).
1. Took a Sony RAW file and converted it to DNG using LR twic (125.dng and 125s.dng). Then used EXIFTOOL to change the "Make" and "Model" to something daft (Make="Bogus" Model="My Model") on 125.dng and LR and Finder confirmed the EXIF changes.
2. Imported the doctored and undoctored DNGs into C1.
Both imported OK and C1 except C1 showed the genuine original "Make" and "Model" in both doctored and un-doctored images. But the colour was very different
(Rubbish photo but has a range of colours and was part of my test library)
A clear difference but C1 seems to be getting Make and Model from elsewhere within the image so I'm unsure if it was recognising it as a supported camera?
As a 2nd text I took an HEIC photo from iPhone built-in camera app (as C1 does not support HEIC), converted it to DNG in LR, didn't doctor anything and imported it fine into C1 and the colours look good as well.
So do people think my tests show C1 can import unsupported camera DNGs or has the "doctoring" not been fulls successful?
Many thanks
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@Walter
Yes Walter, you are right. From the last version (20) :
"DNG files from camera models with native support in Capture One will per default have their native Capture One colors applied. DNG files from camera models that are not natively supported in Capture One will have generic DNG Standard colors applied."
(But "DNG support not optimized for some cameras".)
@Psamathe
So, I think adjustments could be made on DNG converted from non-supported camera RAWs, and, when your camera is supported, only small colour shifts would be expected, that could be easily corrected (or not if very slight).
Robert
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As far as I am concerned I would prefer a 1-3 year old camera shooting raw over the latest greatest new camera model shooting jpg - any time.
At least when it comes to image quality of the final image. And the proposed raw to tiff conversion is also better than jpg. That's because jpg as an input format is too inflexible in many respects.
Shooting raw in addition to jpg would be a must for me, even if I would not have time right now for post processing, who knows if I wouldn't like to process my best shots in a few years time, maybe start to love post processing, maybe cannot travel due to a broken leg, maybe AI based raw converters will do great jobs with minimal human effort in the future, or any combination thereof.
There are of course other considerations for buying a brand new camera or switch brands; resolution, lenses, AF, stolen camera, etc. etc., no doubts. Or jobs where jpg is sufficient.
Horses for courses.
Z7 support at day 1? Though C1 does not have the same arrangements with Nikon than they have with Sony or Fuji? Wow!
It would be good for many if C1 would have a quick preliminary support for new models they want to support, maybe based on the previous model, in case the effort for them to do so is reasonable. See the latest 1DX iii files.
Regards,
BeO
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Psamathe,
do both Sony files have the same curve in the base characteristics tool? The left one looks a little bit like a linear response curve.
Regards
BeO
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@Robert
Out of interest, would those changes happen automatically when the camera became supported? i.e. install update and the now supported DNGs change a bit to reflect the better processing? Or would the processing be set on image import.
My preferred system would be to automatically update, but I've been playing a bit further manually adjusting the ICC Profile (in C1 in "Base Characteristics" for the doctored DNG) and it's set to ICC Profile "DNG Generic" with "Curve" set to "None". If I change the profile to be the actual supported camera C1 rejects the change (it's a Sony RX100m6 and manually set this and it rejects it but set it to the m5 or m7 version and it accepts it!). If I change the Curve from "None" to "Auto" the image colour changes to be very close to the un-doctored ARW imported image (so other adjustments easily bring it virtually the same).
I find it difficult to balance risks as in reality, given my existing Canon lenses (mainly the EF 100-400) I'm likely to go for a Canon body and I'd expect a new Canon mirrorless to be supported (not a weird "outlier" specialist model).
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@Walter Rowe
On the LR dialog I un-checked the embed raw file option but the "Embed fast load data". But that said, I've found a fair number of bugs in LR so am a bit un-trusting of it.
I assume separate Adobe apps (like the DNG converter) will use the same code.
But, following your point, I've re-done further test and exported without the "Embed Fast Load Data" option and import to C1 now gets the Make and Model as per my "doctored" settings (i.e. does not see the Sony RX-100m6). Plus, the imported image ICC profile is DNG Generic (as previous DNG) but the "Curve" becomes "DNG Standard" rather than "none" previously and the resulting image is a lot closer to the original raw. In images below, doctored DNG with rubbish Make and model on the left, original Sony ARW on the right.
So it looks like C1 us using the "Fast Load Data" (whatever that includes.
There is an obvious difference but nothing a few adjustments can't quickly sort. But when the camera becomes supported will the underlying adjustment update and with my adjustments on top make it OTT (which is not the end of the world but useful to know.
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Many thanks to all for help as, whilst I'm still evaluating and the issues I'm raising are important to me, running through and the experimenting is helping me understand how C1 works and pushing me to hunt around to discover e.g. how to change ICC stuff - all part of understanding how it works.
For me, changing package is a long term step as switching is invariably going to mean losing some past work so switch rarely and stick with a package for long term (I've been on LR since version 2). And whilst I've had experiences driving me away from Adobe, another aspect is that I can't go travelling for a bit (pandemics) so I have time to put in the work.
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@Walter Rowe
I'm still processing a massive backlog of images in my Lightroom library from the trip before last (let alone the last trip). I'm going through exporting the better ones to commons.wikimedia (releasing them with Creative Commons licenses) as an ongoing task but a lot of my travels the places I've visited have no or poor coverage in WikiMedia/Wikipedia. To continue this process I'm looking to port my entire LR library.
I've done a test and keywords, titles, etc. come across fine but the processing adjustments on move were not great. So I might as you suggest just do new work in C1 for a month until CYME Avalanche https://cyme.io/store/ is ready (I've offered to beta test and they will be sending me pre-releases. It looks like that might ports processing adjustments more accurately. But either way, if I have to re-do the processing such is life. I'm not great at processing anyway so repeating will be a learning experience.
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@Walter Rowe
Re: "There is a Lightroom plugin from John Beardsworth called Syncomatic ...". I tried the "Capture Time" plug-in for the tests above as it includes options to change the Make and Model fields but it didn't work so I downloaded the EXIFTool and did it from the command line. I suspect the plug-in was set to only work using .xmp files (the -X on the exiftool's command line irrespective of the "write directly to raw" options in the plug-in. The exiftool seemed to work from command line fine (except for the "fast load ..." as raised above).
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You can also use Imaging Edge Desktop and output TIF/WideGamutRGB from the ARW image then edit in C1.
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Out of interest, would those changes happen automatically when the camera became supported? i.e. install update and the now supported DNGs change a bit to reflect the better processing? Or would the processing be set on image import.
@Psamathe
It would very easy to shift from one DNG to another, or to the camera ICC profile, simply by selecting all your images and making the change for all at once in the "Base characteristics" tool. Of course, for the newly imported images, the camera ICC profile will be automatically applied once your camera model is supported (unless you specify other).
Robert
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Eric, Walter,
"believe it or not, Capture One supported the Z7 on launch day! Once in a while Capture One works with a camera manufacturer (or the manufacturer works with Capture One?) and you get immediate support. Other times you do have to wait."
As I recall the original Canon 1DX was also supported from day 1 (there happened to be a C1 update scheduled on the day of general release of the camera iirc.)
That said I seem to remember that the camera was announced about a year or so before it was "released" and there seemed to be a lot of people testing it in the field.
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