“Database free” Capture One
In short: I would welcome a simplified version of Capture One, acting just as RAW editing software easily integrated to workflow based on other software used for DAM. Editing the files in this simplified version of Capture One would create sidecar files located next to the photo file (i.e., in the same folder, without complex folder structure).
Long version: I admit I have little experience with Capture One, I used Adobe Camera RAW in past. My workflow is based on IMatch database, which I use for everything from browsing, sorting, viewing, rating, categorizing and keywording my images. This software is exceptional, reliable and extremely capable and one would not believe it is a work of one single programmer (kudos to Mario Westphal). But I need software for editing my Nikon RAW files.
I downloaded trial version of Capture One. After viewing some video tutorials, I quite like the user interface and I really like the results – exported images. What I do not like is a complex handling of images, creation of whole bunch of folders with different associated files… I understand that it is necessary for Capture One serving as a DAM, yet it complicates smooth incorporation of Capture One for my purpose. From my testing it seems that:
- the settings files (*.cos) are not located next to the image file (as I am used to from ACR and *.xmp files), but in generated folders several levels deep. While IMatch can set “file-relation rules” and locate and manage these external sidecar files when moving/copying the image files, it is a complication and hassle.
- Capture One creates its own cache of images and thumbnails. It also seems to “copy” RAW files to “its own” location, which actually duplicates the RAW files (and causes mess in the folder/files structure).
- Organizing (moving) files in IMatch breaks the connections in Capture One and vice-versa. This is inherent consequence of two simultaneous DAMs. While the files can be relocated, it is a further complication.
My question to Capture One experienced users and/or developers: Is it possible to somehow set current Capture One so that it does not create catalogs or sessions and works in a simplified mode? I mean, where it only retains full editing capabilities (i.e., including layers and masks). If not, would the developers consider such version of Capture One in (close) future?
I believe it could be done quite easily. Just let any folder be opened in Capture One, adjustments/editing made, where sidecar files are saved to the very same folder. If any cache needs to be generated (I don’t think so), let the user specify any folder in the PC where cache is saved (and cleaned from time to time). Such approach would make Capture One highly attractive to any users with workflow based on another DAM.
Best wishes,
David
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What you are suggesting -- essential a "browser mode" for C1 -- was what I was expecting from sessions.
Sadly, sessions impose a certain folder structure and are therefore not suitable for quickly browsing through folders and, potentially, applying some edits here and there.
I agree that it is a pity that one always has to import (either into a catalogue or a session) in order to view RAW files using C1.0 -
Perhaps this would be interesting for other people too. Perhaps some developer would respond. Perhaps it could be implemented...
D.
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David: as Class A has already said, you can essentially do this in a session. Navigate anywhere you like, find a file and edit it. The edits are stored in sidecar files in subfolders of the image location.
Class A: no, sessions don't have to impose a folder structure. True, when you create a session, you get default folders for Capture, Selects, Output and Trash. But you can navigate anywhere in the file system (using the System Folders section in the Library tool) find an image and edit it. So you don't actually have to import the images. If you want easy access to a folder you have edited in, you can add it to the session favourites, to make it quicker to find next tie, but you don't have to if you would prefer to navigate by hand through the file system.
Ian
Edited to add: Capture One can copy images into a catalog, but it doesn't have to - you can choose when you import them to leave them in their existing location. In that case, the edit information and the thumbnails are in the catalog, but the raw files aren't.
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Ian, thank you for the reply. I will try it soon. The possibility to keep the photo files in their original location is a good tip!
I have only worked with sessions so far, but still a lot of subfolders were created. Their content is not fully clear to me, I guess it is for thumbnails, image previews, deleted files, etc. I wonder whether it is possible to avoid creation of all those subfolders and keep only the important sidecar files. This would reduce the “mess” created on the disc. And is there any option to place the sidecar files directly next to the image files, or are these always put into subfolders?
I still believe that the proposed idea of “simplification” is not bad….
David
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David,
The subfolders you mention are the sidecar files.
the Cache folder contains Thumbnails and Previews. These can be deleted but will be recreated if the image folder is later used again.
The Settings(xxx) folder contains files that define editing activity.
HTH.
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OK, imagine I have well organized folder structure with my image files – RAW (NEF) files and developed JPGs that is indexed in IMatch database and I do all my file transfers from IMatch. I want to edit some files from folder “dp1580__Sherwood forest”, subfolder “Orig NEF” and export the finished JPG files into a sibling folder “FullRes JPG”. These are monitored by IMatch and new files are automatically indexed. Perhaps I manage to tell Capture One to load some required RAW files from “Orig NEF” folder (without copying these) and to export finished JPG files to my “FullRes JPG” folder. Fine. I accept that some folders with sidecar files are created somewhere under “Orig NEF” (although I would much prefer these to appear directly in “Orig NEF” folder). But is there any possibility to instruct Capture One NOT TO create the other folders with thumbnails and previews? Or at least, to create these somewhere else on my disc, outside from the folder structure indexed/monitored by IMatch? I would like to prevent indexing all the “unwanted” files (thumbnails, previews), as these would mess my clean database without real benefit… ☹
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David, thank you for raising this interesting idea. I speculate that Axcel will have investment/development resource allocation strategies which insist that future development is focused on Phase One and Capture One as they are currently architected. I do not think you will readily abandon the excellent DAM capabilities of iMatch, so you may end up finding an alternative RAW processor which will integrate more cleanly and readily with iMatch. If you do, I for one would be most grateful if you were to update this forum with your decision.
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Hi Tony,
Thank you for your reply! As I am new here, I do not know who is who and cannot recognize a reply from a user and that from a moderator/software developer. Your reply seems to me that you belong to more informed people here, which I appreciate, but which makes me a bit sad at the same time; it seems that the architecture is firmly established and although it might seem to me as “easy to implement”, it is definitely not without associated costs and effort. Perhaps I am only a minority of users who would appreciate this.
Yes, you are right, I do not plan to abandon IMatch. I was a betatester in early IMatch5 stage, and thus have some insight into what Mario was able to create. I strongly believe that his work is generally underrated and less known than what IMatch deserves. It requires some learning curve, but this is how complex software typically is.
Unfortunately, I am not sure whether there is any (high-quality) RAW converter working with masks that does not try to be a DAM too. An old rule says that the less functions given device has, the better it fulfills these… (sorry for the lame translation, English is not my primary language :-/ ).
If I get some clear feedback from Capture One that what I proposed is neither manageable (with some workaround) in current software, nor is any interest to consider the idea for further development, then yes, I need to find different RAW converter. With regret, though.
In the meantime, I tried to follow Ian Wilson’s advice to import the images without copying. I couldn’t find it for sessions, but it seems to me that I achieved it for catalog. A bit strange, IMHO, but so it seems. Further testing needed. I still didn’t understand the complexity of folders and subfolders where all the settings are stored. I don’t want to use Capture One as a “blackbox”, but want to understand what data are stored where…
David
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Hi David,
Let's be quite candid: you don't qualify to have any concerns about your ability to correctly use this mongrel and highly arbitrary language called English. Your use exceeds, by a considerable margin, that of far too many native English speakers of my acquaintance.
Next, I agree that it is difficult to determine the 'rank' or 'status' of contributors to this forum. This company does things in its own, unique way, some aspects of which, based on my background, I find quite difficult to accommodate. You'll have to use your own judgement concerning the value of the replies you get to this topic.
I'm not more informed than others here, (aside from having had a career as development executive for a muli-national half a life-time ago). Far from it - I am relatively new to C-One, too, as part of my search for a suitable escape mechanism from Adobe LightRoom - of which I have experience from the very first beta and use it to manage a large collection of photo images, with an equal number waiting to be scanned from film.
The need for DAM has always been apparent to me. Having a focus only on photographic image assets I found LightRoom to be the most attractive option for me when it first appeared, as the alternatives then available were either functionally inadequate or aimed at the Corporate/Industrial user.
Now I have need for both a DAM with a wider remit than photo assets, and a better RAW processor than LightRoom 6 (as I will not submit to Adobe's 'dirty-tricks' subscription strategy). Based on your comments about iMatch and now having looked at the product in some detail over the last few hours I readily endorse your comments about both the product and its developer. It's a remarkable achievement, especially in its lack of recognition. Capture One does seem to provide all the RAW processing capabilities that I need as an amateur photographer (or. more accurately, as a picture taker).
Based on my previous experience of managing these sorts of development, and as previously stated, I do not expect the team running Phase One/Capture One, or the purse-keepers at Axcel will readily accept your 'DAM-free' suggestion. One reason will be that the current base of iMatch users is small, while the total 'audience' for all other decent, consumer-level, stand-alone DAM offerings combined is probably even less, bearing in mind that the MAC and Linux worlds are excluded.
Have you looked at Exposure 5 which can run as a plug-in (I think) and has good layers and masking capabilities. The masking capability in DarkTable looks good, but I'm not sure how easily it could be integrated with iMatch.
Any further discussion is really outside the aim of this forum, I suspect. If there is a 'private message' facility with this forum feel free to use it. But, as I said, this company has its own way of doing things....
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David,
There is no real hierarchy here and many, perhaps most, of the Pro users are now (or should be for their benefits) operating either out of the older forum now dedicated to Phase camera owners/users and the accredited Digital Tech program or, perhaps, use the alternative "Enterprise" service arrangement more often than this forum.
That said you have a way to use C1 as an editor only via sessions. The downside if that that approach, for flexibility and potential portability, creates the Capture one Folder and associated subfolders. The Settings subfolder contains all of the edits or, as a minimum, Base Characteristic settings C1 needs to be able to operate on the files. The Cache folder could be deleted for archiving but would be recreated on next access to the folder.
The cache files have their own file types so I would expect that it should be possible to exclude those file types from indexing by the DAM - hopefully.
One option that I have never tried but that might work for you is to use C1 and an external editor for IMatch.
I believe it should be possible to select an image and call up C1 as the chosen editor in which case I would anticipate that C1 probably would not read the entire folder in which the image is being stored and thus only the associated settings, thumbnail and preview files for that image would be added to the CaptureOne folder sub-folders.
Have you already tried that approach?
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Hi Tony,
Thank you for your kind words concerning my English(!) and for long reply to my previous post.
Obviously, we are both congruent concerning Adobe’s subscription strategy. Personally, I have always inclined to favoring “smaller and less known, yet capable” compared to “big, famous and dominating”. I seriously doubt that the strategy of “being paid for doing little” is good for any company in the long term, but I am neither manager, nor businessman... so I may be wrong.
If you consider to try IMatch, I highly encourage you to do so 😊 I first used old generation of IMatch 3, which was OK, but quite difficult to handle. But since IMatch 5 (where I was a betatester), the whole environment maturated in all aspects, function, design, user interface. Since that, I could not keep pace with all new features that Mario added over time, but IMatch is getting better and better with every update.
I admit that the number of potential customers interested in “database free C1” is probably not worth the investment. But still I hoped to receive any reply from someone in the management, because I do believe the idea is not utterly out of place. I am not a professional photographer myself (perhaps a picture taker, like you said, it amused me 😊 ), but among my friends and colleagues (both enthusiasts and casual shooters), I see significant demand for capable RAW editor, but without additional functions and complexity. Many people do not have time to dedicate in creating any DAM database (they work on a basis of folders), yet they sometimes want to develop their RAW files. So I believe that the proposed “database free C1” would not attract only IMatch users, but many database-free users too. Actually, I believe that the antipathy (shared by us two) towards Adobe’s subscription is also shared by many people…
If I notice any interest from C1’s management, I can bring this topic to IMatch forum and try to find out whether people are interested in RAW editor based on “C1 engine” or not.
Coincidentally, I downloaded Exposure X5 trial one week before C1. It is not bad, but I found out that it somehow makes mess in metadata of the exported files (I found out this together with Mario’s help). I wrote about it to Exposure stuff, received “thank you and here is your ticket number, we will contact you”, but no more reply so far… :-/ Then I tried C1 and watched the tutorials and liked it even better.
If only I knew to whom should I send the private message… I hoped that someone “from top” will look at and reply to this thread.
Thank you again, Tony, it was nice to meet you here.
David
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To SFA: Thank you for your post and advice. I will try this approach. There is option to open any image in desired application directly from IMatch. If I set relation rules to handle *.COS (and the other settings file with masks) in IMatch, set IMatch to neglect unwanted folders from indexing and „clean“ (delete) redundant cache folders before the image folder is moved (e.g., to archive HDD), this might work!
It is less straightforward approach than what I like, but it might work. Thank you for the tip!
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