Global De-Saturation
Dear Capture One,
I'm writing this post to put forward to Phase One a simple suggestion that will greatly improve their software. As a user of at least 12 years as a digi op and as a photographer this is one of my biggest frustrations. Currently the de-saturation slider in the exposure tab is not global. It would make life so much easier if this was the case. If you input shadow /midtone / highlight colour through curves /levels or even colour balance and then are able to simply de-sat the overall then I would be a very happy man.
There are very few times when you create a tone that you want to de-sat the image colour separately from these inputs. Infact I don't think I have ever wanted it. I know you could do this via local adjustment layers but this is not a solution.
Part of the beauty of using capture one is to quickly create looks. This change would alter the speed and ease of use hugely.
Please consider this change..... Please
I'm writing this post to put forward to Phase One a simple suggestion that will greatly improve their software. As a user of at least 12 years as a digi op and as a photographer this is one of my biggest frustrations. Currently the de-saturation slider in the exposure tab is not global. It would make life so much easier if this was the case. If you input shadow /midtone / highlight colour through curves /levels or even colour balance and then are able to simply de-sat the overall then I would be a very happy man.
There are very few times when you create a tone that you want to de-sat the image colour separately from these inputs. Infact I don't think I have ever wanted it. I know you could do this via local adjustment layers but this is not a solution.
Part of the beauty of using capture one is to quickly create looks. This change would alter the speed and ease of use hugely.
Please consider this change..... Please
0
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[quote="NNN634248485356566063" wrote:
Currently the de-saturation slider in the exposure tab is not global.
Not sure what you actually mean and want to achieve. Could you put more beef on it?
In my experience the saturation slider works an all channels, and yes you can push individual channels which counteract the saturation slider but I assume if you do that then you do want to have that, no?
Or do you want B&W development? For that there is a dedicated tool in the colour tool tab.
This is a user to user forum (though P1 crew occasionally jumps in), feature requests should go through your account / support case. However I guess more information than you gave is needed also for the support staff.
cheers
BeO0 -
[quote="NNN634248485356566063" wrote:
Dear Capture One,
I'm writing this post to put forward to Phase One a simple suggestion that will greatly improve their software. As a user of at least 12 years as a digi op and as a photographer this is one of my biggest frustrations. Currently the de-saturation slider in the exposure tab is not global. It would make life so much easier if this was the case. If you input shadow /midtone / highlight colour through curves /levels or even colour balance and then are able to simply de-sat the overall then I would be a very happy man.
There are very few times when you create a tone that you want to de-sat the image colour separately from these inputs. Infact I don't think I have ever wanted it. I know you could do this via local adjustment layers but this is not a solution.
Part of the beauty of using capture one is to quickly create looks. This change would alter the speed and ease of use hugely.
Please consider this change..... Please
I understand what you are trying to achieve. Please create a Support, so it can be logged officially.0 -
Christian,
Do you think this change to the saturation slider (whatever it is...) would benefit and be welcomed by all other users too?
Thanks,
BeO0 -
Not by all, no, but that is natural when changing things from something known and tried to something new. 0 -
Something new or something better? What is it?
btw, something new would be if C1 would support OMD EM-10 Mark II, I am sure no user would have objections to it... 😊0 -
[quote="BeO" wrote:
Something new or something better? What is it?
btw, something new would be if C1 would support OMD EM-10 Mark II, I am sure no user would have objections to it... 😊
Something additional perhaps?
Maybe and Either this way OR the other way ...
Grant0 -
Do you have a clue what NNN634248485356566063 asked for, Grant? 0 -
[quote="BeO" wrote:
Do you have a clue what NNN634248485356566063 asked for, Grant?
I read the words. I understand them, I think. (It's possible I don't but I think I understand the intention.)
What I am not sure about is why that is different to what happens now.
I suspect there may be some conceptual discussions that may need to occur.
I think Christian's response is wonderfully enigmatic.
I would very much like to have it explained using an example.
How about you?
Grant0 -
Yes, I would be interested too. Especially as I am totally satisfied with how it is working today... 0 -
Maybe it's about this:
Take a color image with lots of red and give it a strong curve in the red color channel. Just bring the dark red part close to '0' and leave the bright reds at normal. Now desaturate the image with the exposure slider. The result is not gray. It is tinted with the complementary color. The tint seems to be the difference between the neutral curve and he manually set curve. It's causing a split toning effect.
When targeting at b&w, using 'Enable Black & White' solves it. But when targeting at a very desaturated image with a specific look, I found no solution.
Regards,
Hans0 -
[quote="HansB" wrote:
Maybe it's about this:
Take a color image with lots of red and give it a strong curve in the red color channel. Just bring the dark red part close to '0' and leave the bright reds at normal. Now desaturate the image with the exposure slider. The result is not gray. It is tinted with the complementary color. The tint seems to be the difference between the neutral curve and he manually set curve. It's causing a split toning effect.
When targeting at b&w, using 'Enable Black & White' solves it. But when targeting at a very desaturated image with a specific look, I found no solution.
Regards,
Hans
Exactly right 😊 So, as mentioned, changing this behavior can be both good and bad. Again, if someone would like it to works this way, please let us know in a feature request. That is the only way we can track demand properly.0 -
[quote="Christian Gruner" wrote:
[quote="HansB" wrote:
Maybe it's about this:
Take a color image with lots of red and give it a strong curve in the red color channel. Just bring the dark red part close to '0' and leave the bright reds at normal. Now desaturate the image with the exposure slider. The result is not gray. It is tinted with the complementary color. The tint seems to be the difference between the neutral curve and he manually set curve. It's causing a split toning effect.
When targeting at b&w, using 'Enable Black & White' solves it. But when targeting at a very desaturated image with a specific look, I found no solution.
Regards,
Hans
Exactly right 😊 So, as mentioned, changing this behavior can be both good and bad. Again, if someone would like it to works this way, please let us know in a feature request. That is the only way we can track demand properly.
+1 to treat it as a feature request, not as some bug to be fixed, when filed in a support case.
The current way gives a lot of possibilities in split toning effects.
The requested way gives extra possibilities in strongly desaturated images.
Regards,
Hans0 -
[quote="HansB" wrote:
+1 to treat it as a feature request, not as some bug to be fixed, when filed in a support case.
This would never be treated a bug, rest assured.0 -
Got it, sounds interesting. Wouldn't this be an enhancement to the B&W tool? Instead of a checkbox (or in addition) a desaturation slider? 0 -
[quote="BeO" wrote:
Got it, sounds interesting. Wouldn't this be an enhancement to the B&W tool? Instead of a checkbox (or in addition) a desaturation slider?
That would be an excellent solution to fit both needs. I like it. And I am one of those (few?) who need it.
Regards,
Hans0 -
[quote="HansB" wrote:
That would be an excellent solution to fit both needs. I like it. And I am one of those (few?) who need it.
In order to give it more weight you should also create a support ticket (and describe your proposal) 😊0 -
[quote="BeO" wrote:
Got it, sounds interesting. Wouldn't this be an enhancement to the B&W tool? Instead of a checkbox (or in addition) a desaturation slider?
OK, sounds like what I though it was about.
I think the B&W tool deals with it already. The issue here, if I have if right, is that highly desaturated colour may be out of balance because the reduction in saturation applied is linear (or still too linear it it is not exactly linear) for the desired outcome to be easily achieved. Any boost to a particular setting (compared to other colours in the example) will be retained. So +20 RED at 100% saturation is still, perhaps, +20 red at 10% saturation when maybe +2 red would better retain the intended balance.
I'm not sure that the overall processing would be that simple of course but that's the sort of concept I think we are looking at. At 0% zero would apply to colour but not luminosity - as per B&W tool.
Presumably the "look" can be achieved by other means (go back and adjust the colour again?) but a different control method would make things easier for those that need it.
I can see that this would be something of particular interest to people establishing a "look" for an entire set of images that start out with relatively large colour variations. It may not be so much of a problem when working on individual images.
There may be some aspects of this requirement that are counter to much of the effort put in to making the algorithms "respond like human sight" for a natural appearance. Of course to a large extent a "look", by definition and requirement, is non-natural. That is partly what will make it interesting enough to grab our attention (whether we like it or not being a different matter ....!)
Grant0 -
I've just figured out a way to do it!
Lower the saturation here:
'Color Editor' - "Basic" tab - rainbow-circle (at the bottom of the color circles)
Why didn't I think of that option some month ago? Everything would have been so much easier.
Regards,
Hans0 -
[quote="HansB" wrote:
I've just figured out a way to do it!
Lower the saturation here:
'Color Editor' - "Basic" tab - rainbow-circle (at the bottom of the color circles)
Why didn't I think of that option some month ago? Everything would have been so much easier.
Regards,
Hans
Are you sure?
If I have understood the problem correctly the Basic tool is a good place to experience the problem described.
Take an image which offers a good opportunity for a distinct colour adjustment.
Open the basic colour editor and set the ALL (Rainbow line) slider to -80.
Now pick one of the colours above that is well represented in your chosen image and increase the saturation for that colour and see what happens.
Spot colour! 😉
That said - if you boost R/G/B using, say, a levels adjustment the global colour pick in the Basic colour adjustment does seem to give a balanced result.
Whether that would remain true for all possible methods of boosting (or supressing) a colour (beyond the use of the adjustments in the basic tool itself for which we already know the results) would require some further examination.
I'm not sure that the result is quite what the OP is looking for anyway - but maybe be will hear about that.
Grant0 -
Grant,
You are absolutely right, and my workaround isn't complete.
If I change another color in the Color Editor too, it has effect on the all colors slider. So there is still need for a tool that de-saturates without split toning. It should not be too complicated to implement. It has to apply curves and levels before de-saturating instead of after.
What I was looking for, when I was working on my images, was a tool that doesn't Split Tone when de-saturating with modified channels in Levels and Curves. And without other color adjustments in the Color Editor, the rainbow-circle in the Color Editor does the job.
Regards,
Hans0 -
Hi all,
I think you have all worked out what I am talking about.
When you input colour like i said via colour balance in shadow/mid/highlights or curves / levels via each colour channel black white or chosen midtone point, then the saturation slider works as to de-sat the colour image excluding this input colour so as to create a split tone effect. This is not the way the de-sat slider should really work.
If you think of photoshop (sorry!) when you create a saturation layer it effects everything below including channel colour inputs leaving the most de-sat image as b/w.
I can't see why this shouldn't be the way that capture one works.
Yes there are kind of work arounds via saturation sliders in colour editor and de-sat via local adjustment masks but this is the silliest way to try and effect something that is so easily solved by changing the behaviour of the de-sat slider in the exposure tab.
It also would save a stupidly large amount of time having to go through different tools to have such an easy and logical way to alter the overall saturation of your image.
This is especially evident when you are working quickly on large amounts of images, with say various strengths of sunlight throughout a day.
I find that when using capture I want exposure, high dynamic range, levels, curves, sharpening, b/w, and vignetting. With these I could pretty much do all the basics to a image very quickly creating almost all tones. A proper de-sat slider is the one thing from that list that is lacking....
While I'm on this subject actually if there was an opacity slider on all tool menus then that would be great as well!!! Thats the other gripe I have!
Btw I read your replies about support case can someone link me please!0 -
[quote="NNN634248485356566063" wrote:
Btw I read your replies about support case can someone link me please!
https://www.phaseone.com/en/GlobalMenu/ ... tMain.aspx
You need to login to your Phase Account but after that the screen should be self evident.
Grant0 -
Glad I understood you right. I ran into it myself a couple of times. I have just filed a support case with a feature request.
You can do it on the PO website. Log in into 'My pages' here:
https://www.phaseone.com/en/My-Pages.aspx
Go to 'Tech Support Cases' and 'Contact technical support'.
I gave them the description I posted here, listed BeO's suggestion for implementation (I'd really like it like that), and pointed them to this thread.
Regards,
Hans0 -
I think, if the objective is colour desaturation not an additional B&W desaturation method, that any tool provided should be outside the B&W tool in order to differentiate it. Possibly also for other practical reasons.
Personally I would associate it with Colour editing since it seems more logical there than in a B&W tool if users are creating colour looks. The B&W tool, by name at least, presumably does not have that need.
Grant0 -
[quote="HansB" wrote:
[quote="BeO" wrote:
Got it, sounds interesting. Wouldn't this be an enhancement to the B&W tool? Instead of a checkbox (or in addition) a desaturation slider?
That would be an excellent solution to fit both needs. I like it. And I am one of those (few?) who need it.
Regards,
Hans
Hi Guys
Thanks for pointing me in the right direction re- support case.
I have to dis-agree about it the implementation of this only within b/w tool. You aren't altering the b/w you are altering the colour image. Big difference.
I also think my suggestion of and opacity function like photoshop within each tool would super enhance the software.
One of the failings i see of the way capture seems to work is there is no defined hierarchy of tools and their effects (this actually could be a plus or minus). Maybe capture one could implement a tool hierarchy based upon the tab flow (though I'm sure this would create a few issues do to the move-ability of tools around the tabs)0 -
[quote="SFA" wrote:
I think, if the objective is colour desaturation not an additional B&W desaturation method, that any tool provided should be outside the B&W tool in order to differentiate it. Possibly also for other practical reasons.
...[quote="NNN634248485356566063" wrote:
...
I have to dis-agree about it the implementation of this only within b/w tool. You aren't altering the b/w you are altering the colour image. Big difference.
...
Valid points. Agree.
Regards,
Hans0 -
I've started a support case to add to yours Hans so hopefully we'll see this sometime in the future.
Cheers for your comments.0 -
[quote="NNN634248485356566063" wrote:
Maybe capture one could implement a tool hierarchy based upon the tab flow (though I'm sure this would create a few issues do to the move-ability of tools around the tabs)
Opacity is an interesting option but I suspect that some of C1's interpretation of raw data via the rules of human vision (as currently understood) on to the resulting display of an image using severely limited technology (compared with what the brain can do) may be challenging.
I am familiar with one application that is a lot like C1 (sessions mode) in many ways but uses Stacked tools with positional importance and allows things like colour range and luminosity selection, "layers", opacity settings and blend mode for every instance of every tool. (Except a few special tools for which not all adjustment variables would make sense.). You may already know of it.
These days to compare the two is probably very unfair but the bottom line for me was that C1 produces more immediate good looking results straight from conversion from more of the images, is faster to use for editing and generally give back more for less effort. If you like to spend a lot of time per image (I tend to have a need for fast volume production as the primary selection criterion) there is not much difference between them for productivity. The only real downside for C1 is that you have to pay for it! 😉
Using a tool with some many variables to control at so many levels you can end up chasing a result trying to work out how one change somewhere will affect the next. Some of the tools are not "traditional" in the way that we might understand them. I actually find them more intuitive than the traditional alternatives but that's another matter.
My personal opinion is that in the majority of cases having total control over the tool stack, tool instance by tool instance (you can deploy the same tool multiple times), rarely gives me anything I would want to use that C1 does not already offer.
But that is just a personal opinion.
I like and enjoy using both products.
Grant0 -
"Enable Black & White" and boost a colour with one of the sliders there
vs.
Fully desaturate in the exposure tool and boost the same colour (lightness) in the basic color editor
Then it it is not the same.
If you partially desaturate then ligthing works. I assume the desaturation is done first and when fully desaturated, then nothing's left to lighten up. Hence I assume there is an order in which the tools are applied to the demosaiced raw.
(off-topic, sorry)0 -
I am by no means are criticising Capture One. It is, for me, absolutely the best photographic capture and output software available.
Certainly the most well thought out from a workflow point of view and really getting better in each update. Some things do take a while but get there in the end! Also some things they update you think are a bit mad and then become quite useful!
Though I am not a software developer and actually know nothing about that, I really don't see why capture couldn't implement a opacity slider on each tool menu though. So many times I do a tweak with three different colour inputs or contrast brightness desat and then think if I could just take that back a little bit that would be perfect. Alas I then have to go back and tweak multiple sliders or tools to get it where I want it. Speed of use is really the key in all circumstances I find. It certainly removes the frustration you feel when working in a program day to day.
I get what you are saying Grant, regarding the stacks. It probably would be more difficult to work out where things go wrong if something like that was implemented. But in some way capture is heading in the direction of a layered system now with it's local adjustments. So this could possibly be the future? Who knows. In fact I think if Capture really want us to use their software as a substitute for photoshop ( real masking/ cloning etc) they will have to implement some sort of opacity tool in local adjustments for speed of use. It would be logical also then to have a clear and defined hierarchy to the way the tabs or tool order work with an opacity tool and in general.
I would be interested to know from Capture what their tool order is currently.... If anyone knows.
Also on the topic of hierarchy a top to bottom structure within a tab would certainly make getting your head around output and multiple sub folders easier. In fact the way in which local adjustment works, the change of tools on different layers (process recipes) could be implemented in the process tab. I have always thought that each process recipe should be able to have it's own individual output location as well as many more sub folders. Maybe top to bottom would help? Apologies going a bit off piste here!0
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