I am getting V20 upgrade notices. What are the new features?
I just got an email for this but I can't see a place on the site that tells me what is in it.
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Oh well, there is clearly no answer to the PR problem for those who wish to take advantage of perpetual licences.
Maybe it would simply be better, especially fiscally judging by some corporate results, to go subscription only.
There are then less points of non-information or perceived fiscal fairness to get upset about and we could all just concentrate on how the subscription is too expensive or the developments are not provided quickly enough or don't include the right new features for everyone, etc.
Never mind. Carry on.0 -
[quote="Wesley" wrote:
Apparently anyone can sign up for beta to see the new features but can't say what those features are on here? Having NDA seems rather trivial if anyone can sign up.
Yep !! But signing up for beta testing is not only by curiosity, but also for helping Phase One to provide users with a version almost free of bugs. Which means it is expected beta testers "play" with the beta versions and give Phase One their feedbacks. It's just a "fair play" 😄0 -
[quote="Nature Isme" wrote:
Keith,
With all due respect, I think it actually is your job to convince yourself whether C1 (or any other app) is appropriate for you and whether it's worth the price.
It isn't.
I (not just me, of course) need to be given a reason by the thing I'm thinking of spending money on, rather than finding a reason to "settle" for something that may well lack the USP that would otherwise make the purchase a given.0 -
[quote="tenmangu81" wrote:
Yep !! But signing up for beta testing is not only by curiosity, but also for helping Phase One to provide users with a version almost free of bugs. Which means it is expected beta testers "play" with the beta versions and give Phase One their feedbacks. It's just a "fair play" 😄
Normally I'd agree.
But here? Not so much, as it's currently the only way to establish the value to the prospective user of throwing money at an otherwise unknown product.
I don't feel much of an obligation to Phase One in the current circumstances - Phase One clearly isn't overly concerned about doing right by its users by dangling a tempting discount in front of people, acceptance of which would be based entirely on blind faith and ignorance.0 -
[quote="Wesley" wrote:
Sending out emails for upgrade notices and discount without any peep of info on the CO page is just poor taste.
It does have something the feel of a scam about it, doesn't it? "We have a £1,000,000 inheritance waiting for you - you just need to send us £1,000 for administrative costs first..."
(Yes, yes - I know that's not what Phase One is doing, but it did spring to mind: send us some money up front, and we'll eventually give you something really good in return. Just can't tell you what it is, yet).Apparently anyone can sign up for beta to see the new features but can't say what those features are on here? Having NDA seems rather trivial if anyone can sign up.
Heh! Now you mention it..!
😄0 -
Apparently anyone can sign up for beta to see the new features but can't say what those features are on here? Having NDA seems rather trivial if anyone can sign up.
Maybe so. But perhaps Phase One see it as better than announcing forthcoming features in advance, and then not delivering them. For instance a planned new feature might not work as well as intended once the beta testers get to work on it, and it might be pulled to be introduced in a later release, or not at all.
Ian0 -
For Pete’s sake, It’s an offer, nothing more to it. If you don’t like the offer, just give it a pass.
I upgrade yearly so the offer of saving 20% over regular price is compelling and I’m willing to take the bet. For me that utterly stupid marketing actually works. I also regularly pre-order newly announced books from my favorite authors and don’t recall having ever seen such a lengthy discussion on how bad a deal that is.0 -
Capture One and Phase One are now separate companies. Phase One no longer owns Capture One. This information came from tech support in their answer to why the support page had changed for Capture One users who did not own Phase One cameras. Perhaps, the split and its implications will be clarified in Capture One's newsletter. Capture One 20 will be issued by the new company, and the discount offered for buying before you try may reflect their evolving business plan. Phase One/Capture One has changed ownership, before, so we will have to wait and see what the owners of the newly independent Capture One have in store. The buy before you try approach will work only if users do not feel they have been had. Meanwhile, the only way to prevent surprises is to become a beta tester to see what new features and compatibilities with MacOS may be in the upgrade. The major features that work in the final beta version pretty much make it to the upgrade.
Jerry C0 -
[quote="Ian3" wrote:
Apparently anyone can sign up for beta to see the new features but can't say what those features are on here? Having NDA seems rather trivial if anyone can sign up.
Maybe so. But perhaps Phase One see it as better than announcing forthcoming features in advance, and then not delivering them. For instance a planned new feature might not work as well as intended once the beta testers get to work on it, and it might be pulled to be introduced in a later release, or not at all.
Ian
They don't have to announce anything so they won't be liable for said features. Just have a forum section where beta testers can discuss and non-testers can read and have a gist of future feature possibilities.0 -
[quote="Wesley" wrote:
They don't have to announce anything so they won't be liable for said features. Just have a forum section where beta testers can discuss and non-testers can read and have a gist of future feature possibilities.
I don't think that would be wise at all. How would anyone know which "issues" were real (i.e. can be verified), which are spurious, which are comments ("I wish that..."), etc.? I don't particularly care to see what a release has gone through before it's "A Release" even when I'm beta testing. From what I've seen beta testing various products, new beta releases can come out so frequently (fixing and possibly introducing problems) that a publicly visible forum would be a Very Bad Thing.
Really, it sounds like some people are upset because they're being given an opportunity to upgrade at a reduced price without knowing whether the upgrade is worthwhile to them. Or maybe they just missed the short discounted window. But the discount isn't all that huge...just wait for the real release and get a trial. Or wait and buy the .1 or .2 or .3 release. But complaining that we were given an opportunity to upgrade at a reduced price ("opportunity"...not "forced to buy") seems counterproductive to me. Assuming that Capture One is reading this thread, they may well have second thoughts about offering a discounted period in the future (which would be unfortunate imo).0 -
[quote="Nature Isme" wrote:
[quote="Wesley" wrote:
They don't have to announce anything so they won't be liable for said features. Just have a forum section where beta testers can discuss and non-testers can read and have a gist of future feature possibilities.
I don't think that would be wise at all. How would anyone know which "issues" were real (i.e. can be verified), which are spurious, which are comments ("I wish that..."), etc.? I don't particularly care to see what a release has gone through before it's "A Release" even when I'm beta testing. From what I've seen beta testing various products, new beta releases can come out so frequently (fixing and possibly introducing problems) that a publicly visible forum would be a Very Bad Thing.
Really, it sounds like some people are upset because they're being given an opportunity to upgrade at a reduced price without knowing whether the upgrade is worthwhile to them. Or maybe they just missed the short discounted window. But the discount isn't all that huge...just wait for the real release and get a trial. Or wait and buy the .1 or .2 or .3 release. But complaining that we were given an opportunity to upgrade at a reduced price ("opportunity"...not "forced to buy") seems counterproductive to me. Assuming that Capture One is reading this thread, they may well have second thoughts about offering a discounted period in the future (which would be unfortunate imo).
- non-testers read only
- beta tester badge like POCP
Two solutions that popped in my head.
I would highly recommend sending out a discount on release instead. That would generate a lot more buzz with people actually talking about the new version than this fizzle.
As someone that never received the discount offer, that is my non-biased tip.0 -
[quote="NN635680879799322049UL" wrote:
Capture One and Phase One are now separate companies. Phase One no longer owns Capture One. This information came from tech support in their answer to why the support page had changed for Capture One users who did not own Phase One cameras. Perhaps, the split and its implications will be clarified in Capture One's newsletter. Capture One 20 will be issued by the new company, and the discount offered for buying before you try may reflect their evolving business plan. Phase One/Capture One has changed ownership, before, so we will have to wait and see what the owners of the newly independent Capture One have in store. The buy before you try approach will work only if users do not feel they have been had. Meanwhile, the only way to prevent surprises is to become a beta tester to see what new features and compatibilities with MacOS may be in the upgrade. The major features that work in the final beta version pretty much make it to the upgrade.
Jerry C
This is not reflected on the captureone.com website, on the contrary:
captureone.com/About: "Capture One is part of Phase One A/S....
Furthermore, a Capture One company is not registrered in Denmark, so cannot conduct business. As Capture One users we are dealing with Phase One, which is a properly registered legal entity.
Capture One is a eu-registered trademark owned by Phase One A/S.
edited 11.11 at 10:490 -
[quote="picman2" wrote:
Does anyone know what version of MacOS is required for C1-20. I took advantage of the offer, but am a little worried that once again they will be leaving older MacOS behind. I am on High Sierra.
While no one can be sure until release, I think you’ll be fine. C1 v12 upon release supported the then current MacOS plus two versions back (Mojave, High Sierra and Sierra). Along the same line I’d expect v20 to support Catalina, Mojave and High Sierra.0 -
[quote="picman2" wrote:
Thanks for the reassurance! Come to think of it I really think Phase One should have included that info in their offer. I can understand they do not want to talk about features. I do not understand they do not give info as to the required system to run the software. No quite correct IMHO.
True, that *is* an omission.0 -
[/quote]
This is not reflected on the captureone.com website, on the contrary:
captureone.com/About: "Capture One is part of Phase One A/S....
Furthermore, a Capture One company is not registrered in Denmark, so cannot conduct business. As Capture One users we are dealing with Phase One, which is a properly registered legal entity.
Capture One is a eu-registered trademark owned by Phase One A/S.
edited 11.11 at 10:49[/quote]
You are correct about what it says on the web site.
My statement is based on the response of the tech support staff when I asked why the support site had changed. If you go to the Capture One site, you will see the same support page as when you go to the Phase One site and choose the support for owners of Capture One who do not have Phase One cameras. When I inquired about this change, the reply from Capture One support was that Capture One was no longer a part of Phase One and that it was thus required to have separate support site. I suppose, the change in support for Capture One only users could be for other reasons and the tech support person does not know what he is talking about, but that is what I was told. I can write to their tech support again and ask for clarification.
Jerry C0 -
It seems obvious that in this particular case tech support cannot be trusted so why waste your time. 0 -
Just my 2 cents and thoughts here - sorry it will be a lengthy post. A few years back I switched from Adobe Camera Raw as raw converter to Capture One. Lightroom was never an alternative for me as I did not get really into it.
Since then I have upgraded to every update though my style of editing RAW is more or less minimal. I have signed up as beta tester as well a while back and participated as far as I remember since 2010. Though I know what is coming I pretty much knew before that I will upgrade anyways. So why not paying a little less? I do have Photoshop as subscription license. So, I am roughly paying 300 Euro per year for software I am using to edit and fine tune my image without being a professional.
I used to race motorcycles before switching to another expensive hobby. Recently, one of my hard drives on my 8 Bay NAS died after 3.5 years, so I decided to replace the other one's as well. Instead of 8x3TB I do have now 8x4TB WD Red NAS drives which are not cheap, then my NAS died and I am waiting for a replacement under warranty.
My aging Mac Pro from 2010 is giving me a hard time and replacing this lovely piece with the successor would financially not be sustainable. Since my wife has a 13" MacBook Pro and I am using a pretty good 15" MacBook Pro I am currently looking to use one of the existing docking stations on the market to use the laptops as replacement in the office and connect my external monitor(s) to it. The 15" MBP outruns the MacPro already. The next investment I made was a NAS system with Thunderbolt 3 connection and my replacement NAS I mentioned already will move somewhere else as a true backup place.
I invested in camera gear and lenses as well not to mention traveling to places and investing in models to pursue my hobby. What would I like to to express with that? Given the amount of equipment in general investing in software is only a small portion for me and maybe others and in my opinion any version upgrade for me was worth it.
I am sure that once the new version is officially released we will see people being happy with the new version as well as people being very unhappy with it. Like with all new cameras that will be released this year and the years to come.
Thanks for listening - feel free to bash me if you want.
Peter0 -
Good perspective Mr. Gruener.
Undoubtedly we all like something of the highest quality we can find at the lowest cost and that also goes for C1 n so far as it's achievable.
However depending on where one lives in the world that discount on the upgrade price, while welcome, may not represent much more than the cost of a meal for one in an average restaurant.
On which basis one decides, like you, to go ahead anyway as you believe you will find something useful just have you have done in previous years no matter what or one decided to defer the decision and perhaps risk not saving the cost of that meal. (Or whatever the equivalent local tale would be in different parts of the world.)
It's really not the scale of consequence, whether choosing to take the offer or to wait, that should create such contentious discussions as we have seen here in the past two weeks..
IMO.
Grant0 -
Above, I noted a statement from a tech support person asserting that Capture One had been split from Phase One. Some said this was not correct. They are right and this is good news to me. Apparently the tech person confused the split in tech support platforms with a split in the company. I wrote to Capture One and got this response from Jesper Rosenkrantz, Capture One's Head of Support:
"I can confirm that the Support pages are going through huge changes to reflect the different needs of a hardware business and a software business. For Capture One users we use an entirely new system, and for Phase One users we are streamlining the current system. This also means that our support departments have split up, and we are focusing on being experts in just one subject - this split happened over the summer, and one of the results has been the division of articles in our Help Center (Knowledge Base). The articles you find on support.captureone.com are all about Capture One, and hopefully, this means less noise and a faster path to the right solution for the challenge that you may have when going to the Support page.
"Capture One is not a separate company from Phase One. Capture One is a Danish company. The majority stakeholder is Axcel, which is a private equity firm under Danish license."0 -
[quote="Peter Gruener" wrote:
What would I like to to express with that? Given the amount of equipment in general investing in software is only a small portion for me and maybe others and in my opinion any version upgrade for me was worth it.
That's really not the issue, Peter.
I'm as happy as anyone to argue that - given how much we spend on gear and travelling - the cost of quality software is a minimal expense in the great scheme of things: but we are - in effect - being asked to buy "blind", and trust to luck that it will be a worthwhile expenditure.
That's simply not a reasonable ask, in the opinion of many.
Note that - unlike some - I'm not assuming here that my opinion represents that of the majority: but I invite anyone interested in this situation to Google "Capture One Pro 20" and then read the comments on websites such as "mirrorlessrumors". "43rumors", "sonyalpharumors" "fujirumors" and so on.
This offer from Phase One is not landing well.
Just one example of many, chosen entirely at random:I agree, it's pretty mind-blowing they are soliciting upgrades (and even offering deals on it) when I can't even find a list or description of how the new product is better.. ??
It's not the cost, it's not knowing what the money buys, that rankles.0 -
[quote="Keith Reeder" wrote:
It's not the cost, it's not knowing what the money buys, that rankles.
Its a great offer for those of us who have signed up for Beta testing.(Hint)0 -
[quote="Eric Nepean" wrote:
Its a great offer for those of us who have signed up for Beta testing.(Hint)
Oh, I am, Eric - and I've recommended signing up numerous times to others.
But the underlying point remains that it's hardly normal that people have to beta test a product in order to understand what it is they're being cajoled into buying otherwise blind.0 -
[quote="Keith Reeder" wrote:
But the underlying point remains that it's hardly normal that people have to beta test a product in order to understand what it is they're being cajoled into buying otherwise blind.
On the other hand if one is committed to a subscription only supplier one is, in effect, buying blind to any future developments.
And this concept applies as much to Operating systems and utility software as it does to anything else but we probably don't see it as being so obvious.
I'm really not sure what people are complaining about.
If, as a V12 user, one thinks Phase will not deliver something one might want simply ignore the offer because you think it may not be for you.
If your opinion as a V12 user is that the new features, what ever they are, are probably worth paying for, take up the offer.
If you don't want to take up the offer but feel really really self challenged in case you miss out on a day one saving of a few dollars just console yourself that at some point during the year following release there might very well be another offer that might be just as good or even better and you can take advantage of it by waiting a while.
If, when one finds the new features are likely to be of immediate benefit, simply make the upgrade then. There are far more costly things that one can do and get wrong than fretting over a decision that might save $30 or so now rather than in a few month's time. (Maybe.)0 -
[quote="Keith Reeder" wrote:
On the other hand if one is committed to a subscription only supplier one is, in effect, buying blind to any future developments.
Great point!0 -
[quote="SFA" wrote:
On the other hand if one is committed to a subscription only supplier one is, in effect, buying blind to any future developments.
On the basis of a few quid at a time - not the entire (and hardly cheap) full price of the software.
This isn't a "throwaway" part of the equation, Grant.
By way of Real World example: when I decided that I was no longer sold on LightRoom (and note that I was committed to Adobe in the sense of being on the Adobe Certified Professional (ACP) programme) it was trivially easy for the release which tipped the balance to land; for me decide I'd "lost the faith"; and to stop the £8 or so pcm Direct Debit at that point.
It would be very, very different if I'd come to the same conclusion only after splurging the entire cost of a new release.
To head off the entirely legitimate "didn't you test it first?" comment - in my experience people tend not to test from one release to the next when they're embedded in a system which has worked well for them so far.
But while I do generally decide on a release-by-release basis - which is why I stopped buying Capture One at version 8 - then we're back to Phase One effectively trying to get us to buy 20 via version 12, sight unseen...0 -
Keith,
I understand your point but it's perhaps a question of whether one thinks of a long term subscription as paying in arrears or paying in advance.
In part, and assuming that any initial introductory offer at a discounted monthly rate has already been used up, the reality is that it is probably a mix depending on how long one has been using the subscription model and how far into the upgrade period the product is.
So some might feel they are already paid up in advance - in which case there is little difference to between the subscription situation and the perpetual licence situation. (for any supplier that I am aware of.) Other than a decent perpetual licence option gives you the option to continue to use twat you are OK with and the subscription does not.
The V12 user offer, as I understand it, only applies to V12 paid up users who can obtain a few extra currency units off the cost by preordering. So any non-V12 licence holders can just wait to see if what is available between what they have and what V20 offers when released will tempt them to buy in again.
Last time around there was a sliding scale upgrade fee for current release -1 users as well. Plus some other deals some way through the life cycle for those not in a hurry to update.
I really think that people are entirely misunderstanding what this offer is about.
Last year there were all sort of moans about having bought V12 late in the product cycle and missing the 30 day cut off point be 2 days, or a month, etc. So it looks like this year Phase have set out to address that and add a little incentive to the deal but sticking to their 'no pre-announcement' policy and still they are criticised for it.
The more I think about it the more the complaints look like mountains made out of molehills - but no doubt I will take a lot of stick for saying so and I still won't understand why so many people feel they have a strong reason for complaint and yes I do understand the issues that have been presented. I just don't think they are especially valid at any level in the context of this well known version update scheduled event.
Grant0 -
[quote="SFA" wrote:
(...) no doubt I will take a lot of stick for saying so and I still won't understand why so many people feel they have a strong reason for complaint and yes I do understand the issues that have been presented (...)
You might. But this one is in support as I completely agree with you. I do hope that C1 will provide us with something similar next year despite the flack they're getting and I will decide then and there if it is something for me or not. Quite simple, really.0 -
Thank you Emile.
It's always nice to find people who share one's understanding of things.
Grant0 -
I wondered what all the fuss has been all about.
I took up the offer of 20% and received another 10% on top of that.
It turns out I paid less for the upgrade this year than last year.
I support Capture One every year as there is no other program that comes close especially under the hood.0 -
[quote="SFA" wrote:
I really think that people are entirely misunderstanding what this offer is about.
We really aren't, Grant - there's nothing to misunderstand: we're being asked - in effect - to put our faith in Phase One and buy an as-yet unreleased version of a piece of software, sight unseen.
Spin it any way you want, but that's what's happening. Would you buy your next car on the same basis?
But I'm clearly failing to make the point well enough, so I'll just leave it.0
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