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How does CO use profiles for display?

littlemike
Using a single RAW image in CO, I generated jpgs using different output profiles: Adobe RGB, ProPhoto RGB, sRGB, and one using the profile for my local Costco's Noritsu printer.

When I view the images in Photoshop CS, ACDSee Pro, BreezeBrowser Pro and Qimage, they look pretty much identical, which makes sense because I have color management turned on in those programs. Google's Picasa does not do color management, and the images look different: sRGB is nicely saturated, Adobe RGB less so, and ProPhoto quite unsaturated with a green cast. The Noritsu profile looks somewhat magenta. These appearances are in line with what I understand about the relative sizes of the different color spaces. When color management is turned off in ACDSee and BreezeBrowser, they also display the images like Picasa does.

Capture One Pro displays the images unmanaged, too. My color management settings specify this monitor's profile, the working space is ProPhoto so I don't see anything there that would cause this to happen. Perhaps I am not understanding why the images are displaying unmanaged.

-- mike elliott
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  • Anonymous
    Mike,

    Be sure the icon above the Preview area > Color management on/off

    is enabled or On. It does get turned off on occasion.

    If the monitor profile and Destination ( working space ) are set correctly in Color Management settings, then all the Thumbnails, Previews, and Focus Display should reflect the set color space accurately.

    Sincerely,
    k c
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  • littlemike
    Thanks, Keith.

    Were you at Photokina? Those overseas shows take their toll.

    Turning color management on definitely reduces the displayed differences between the images. With management off, the file that was output with the sRGB profile is quite saturated, while the one that had been output using the Adobe RGB profile is far less saturated, as one would expect.

    With CO's management turned on, the differences are greatly reduced, but still noticeable. Picasa (free) does not manage color, and it displays the images like CO does with management off. Programs, like CO, that manage color (such as Qimage, Breezebrowser Pro, PS CS, and ACDSee Pro), manage the colors of the images so that it's hard to tell them apart. CO, with management turned on, falls in between, as if it "half manages" the color. I know that can't be right, wonder if you have any thoughts on that?

    -- mike elliott
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  • Anonymous
    Mike,

    No, our Support Team Members from Denmark and Germany attended Photokina while we held the Fort.

    Appears all your settings are correct for Color Management:
    > Color management is ON
    > Monitor profile loaded correctly
    > Destination (Working Space) set to desired ( pseudo - soft proofing )

    While I don't compare color with multiple programs, I am able to get a near dead-on match between Capture One and Photoshop. This is with Canon and Phase One Digital Back images. The color is closest when comparing the Focus View display at the Focus tab.
    The most common mistake made in comparing is to not set the soft proofing in Photoshop to be the exact same as Capture One.
    Default for Photoshop is CMYK, and of course there can be a significant difference in color.

    Color management is quite a deep science and one more knowledgeable than I may be able to explain the other variables at work here between the program comparisons.
    Color differences between programs on a monitor may or may not be apparent on the printed image.
    What is most important in a digital workflow is achieving consistent color, and Capture One is more than capable of this.

    Sincerely,
    k c
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  • littlemike
    Thanks, Keith,

    Could you give a bit more detailed explanation about:

    [quote="Keith Carpenter" wrote:
    Mike,

    Appears all your settings are correct for Color Management:
    [snip]
    > Destination (Working Space) set to desired ( pseudo - soft proofing )



    What's the "pseudo - soft proofing" setting? I have my working space set to ProPhoto RGB, don't see anything about pseudo or soft proofing in the Color Management panel.

    -- mike elliott
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  • Anonymous
    Mike,

    pseudo is my term since on the Windows platform, it doesn't truly soft proof like Photoshop does or the Mac version.

    i.e. if you want to use the Costco Printer profile ( or any Lab/Printer profile), you will set it in Destination (Working Space) and make image adjustments.

    Before you process, you need to change this to desired output profile, i.e. sRGB or Adobe RGB
    Some have set their lab or printer profile at Destination (Working Space) ,
    then the desired output at Proof or Web destination, and then select these options at Process tab > Color Management workflow.

    Cheers,
    k c
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  • littlemike
    Oh, I think I see.

    By setting my printer (or photofinisher's) ICC profile as the Working Space, the display sorta-kinda emulates the output device, like soft-proofing does in Photoshop.

    My Web or Proof destination would/should specify the same profile. I would use that profile when I process.

    But (as you indicate in bold), after I finish my adjustments to the preview, I need to then set the Working Space to some standard profile (e.g., Adobe, Prophoto, etc.) before I process the images.

    After I change the Working Space, the preview may change its appearance, but one should pay no mind to that -- right? Just do the processing.

    Is a handy soft-proofing button in the works for a future release?

    -- mike elliott
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  • Anonymous
    Mike,

    You Got It.

    The point of my Bold is that if you are have set a lab or printer profile at the Destination (working space) for color adjustments,
    at the Process tab > Color Management workflow you do not want to process an image with that printer profile but rather a standard color space.
    As I mentioned, some set the Destination (working space) for 'soft-proofing' adjusments,
    and the select either Proof or Web at the Color Management workflow for processing. Of course they have set the desired color space for these at the Color Management settings.

    4.0 for Windows will most certainly handle color management more effectively similar to Mac's ColorSync
    And the forthcoming Windows Vista OS is to be quite a major improvement in color management as well.

    Regards,
    k c
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  • littlemike
    [quote="Keith Carpenter" wrote:
    Mike,

    4.0 for Windows will most certainly handle color management more effectively similar to Mac's ColorSync

    Regards,
    k c


    Cool. Thanks, Keith.

    -- mike elliott
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  • litlgi74
    Hello,

    I am having similar color problems as Mike...

    Windows default profile: set to newest profile

    In CO my settings are:
    Output Destination (Working Space) : sRGB
    Web Destination : sRGB
    Proof Destination : sRGB
    Monitor Profile : set to newest profile

    In CS2 my working space is set to sRGB and my monitor RGB profile is the same as the one used in CO.

    The only time in CS2 that I can match the preview of CO is when View proof colors of the Monitor RGB is checked.

    Is this how it should be done? I thought CS2 was set up to display the working space selected (sRGB)? What color space is CO displaying in the preview, the working space or the monitor profile?

    What color space is photoshop displaying without soft proofing turned on?

    Ultimately I would like CO and CS2 to be displaying the same image working space in the same colorspace... If they are both identical, why do I need to softproof?

    Any help would be great....

    Thanks
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  • Anonymous
    litlgi74,

    You seem to have a good handle on this issue.
    The color displayed for Capture One Thumbnails and Previews is what is set for Destination (Working Space)

    Default soft proofing color space for Photoshop is CMYK, so you must change this to be the same as for Capture One.
    Both can be set to sRGB or even more critical analysis is to set both to Monitor Profile and view the Focus Display of Capture One.
    Of course you will not ever want to output / process with a monitor profile set.
    In your case, you could select either Proof or Web Destinations of sRGB.

    Regards,
    k c
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  • littlemike
    Since I started this thread, and Keith provided some helpful hints about using pseudo soft-proofing in CO, I thought I'd follow up.

    I have two mini-labs I work with (Costco and MPIX) and have profiles from both of them. For my R2400 printer, I have the Epson-provided profile, and one I just received from cathysprofiles.com.

    I opened a RAW file (headshot portrait) in CO and viewed the image while switching between these four different profiles. Each profile resulted in a different "look." If soft-proofing works as it is meant to, these looks should emulate what I would get back from the printers.

    Without modifying the image, I had CO output a file for Costco, using their profile, and one for MPIX, using their profile. I also output an Adobe RGB version for printing on my R2400. I ordered a single print from each mini-lab, and specified that color correction be turned off.

    Using Qimage, I took the Adobe RGB file and sent it to the R2400 twice: once with the Epson profile, once with the custom profile. The MPIX print arrived yesterday, and I picked up the Costco print this morning.

    They don't look the same. I re-opened the same image in CO and viewed it again using the four profiles, and the printed output very very closely matches the display.

    This soft-proofing technique works as advertised. Just like in Photoshop, one can view the image as the output device will print it, and make adjustments as needed.

    So Way #1 to get colors on paper the way I want is to soft-proof and make changes to the image before outputting with the printer's profile.

    Doesn't color management also mean that there is a Way #2 to get the same, results? If one didn't soft-proof, and viewed the profile in a generic working space, then output using the printer profile, shouldn't that result in a print that looks like what CO is displaying with the generic working space? (Within the gamut limitations of the printer and screen, of course.)
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