MediaPro and marine photo-ID research
Hello, we're working with manta rays, and over almost 20 years have about 33,000 images - of course looking for a peer group to recommend photo organizing software. Please let me know if that's you, and how you like this program! Best fishes, Karey 😊
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I think how you want to organize the files(what formats are the files?) and what derivatives you plan to make out of them would be some questions to consider before hand.
I have experience with ACDSeePro5, and recently IDImager. Media Pro has a update I have not been able to install yet, and the previous version has some weird errors and lack of smooth functioning, but with some features unique to it, if they worked. I really hope they put some time into it, or for the next major release they really revamp it completely...give it new life.0 -
Format: Most files are jpg format, I edit some for the Guide (FileMaker Pro) in Photoshop before flattening layers as a jpf again - I keep the layered psds of course. Every so often someone sends me raw files, and I have a lot of CR2s I can't open, from one contributor.
Images are presently arranged in folders by photo shoot, and resighted animals are in iPhoto, which scares me as it keeps crashing when editing keywords. I'm starting to use Bridge as its keywords stay with the files, and although it's much slower than software using thumbnails, but it's good practice. I definitely like hierarchical/nested keywords, which has kept me from Extensis Portfolio - that and the fact that their Help line says "call back later".
Derivatives: our images are data points with dates and most don't have another end use. I adjust the colors to best see the spot pattern, period. Although each animal's best shot is in the ID Guide, they may have another hundred shots that would be useful to compare to incoming photos of new animals. That's what separates photo-ID work from images taken for publication - we're always comparing details, from big groups of past files, with detail in incoming files.
I'll save keyword searches as collections or galleries, for comparing images that we have, to incoming ones. Keywords "left wing" or "mouth pattern" won't be on all of an animal's images, so when we get a new photo with a good closeup of the mouth, past images with mouth views are what I want to see, and I want to see them NOW! 😊 The odd occasional images get away from me as well - brightly colored cleaner fish on the animal, for instance, or wounds whose healing we want to monitor - keywords are very useful here. Maybe I'm set with Bridge assigning keywords, Finder (Mac) locating them, opening them in Preview! That works only for a single keyword however...
I can't find a user manual for ACDSee, so I've no clue as to how many images it can handle, or if it can open a few discontinuous folders momentarily without having to create a new catalog or gallery or collection for them. IDImager as of yet is still for Windows only. This Media Pro forum is full of bug notices, I was hoping it would mainly be tool tips and workflow suggestions. I'm definitely going to hold off until I see a lot of rave reviews! 😐0 -
I see.,
Well..IF...this is a big IF....If you are limited to JPEG and RAW and maybe TIF or PSD(compatible CS version only) files, you might consider LightRoom. I peronally use it the way I use CaptureOne, for Processing. The 3-4 file formats in NO WAY cover my needs. Also it is limiting in a number of other ways (no indication of 16bit, CMYK, etc). Also I recommend making small catalog libraries rather than one big one. I recommend it as it is rather good at Keywording, and the managing of.
I have about 8TB and ACDSee Pro5 does a good job. It does have a pretty powerful and managable keywording section. It is limited for network use.(As many are and IDImager SQL is truely networkable). It does have work arounds for PC based. They have a user guide within the application if you download the trial. They also have an active user forum.
Another bonus side of ACDSee5 is that it will process RAW files. I would recommend you try that out, as the interface is also straight forward and easy to adapt to. It had always been a manager and recently become a RAW processor. So it can see just about any image format,(EXCEPT IIQ C1 RAW files!! which is why I juggle apps) including PDFs. ACDSee approach is mimicking LightRoom, but eventually a bad idea for practical use and long term purpose. This is where the "idea" of Media Pro will be better, and we all cross our fingers that it takes a stand and does revamp the software to be smooth stable and clear to the users.(where Lightroom made a lot of effort and makes it attractive to use).
Hope this helps
ACDsee has a MAC version. I have no experience with that version.0 -
I am so happy to be in communication with you! Yes we have a few TIFs but they're rare. Photoshop seems to be quite happy opening RAW and downsizing to 8 bit so I can work with the images.
Lightroom's user guide says that it can't "watch" a folder that already has images in it. I'm not exactly sure if "watching" is what Bridge does when I add an image to a folder and it pops into Bridge. I can't take the time to add a file to a folder and then again to a program, as iPhoto would have me do. From the User manual it looks like Lightroom needs me to synchronize each & every folder individually? And like a typical Mac user, my folder structure is intense: Photoset/island/black-or-chevron-color/animal-name/used-in-Guide-or-not and each of these 5 layers is branched. I'd like to add the Photoset to the program, and have it subdivide the branches as I have, but I'm afraid it will only add the few images that are in the folder in question, and ignore the folders contained along with their images several layers deeper. Hopefully I'm wrong! I see that there are tutorials and will check them out too.
How big is your largest small catalog? Do you suggest small catalogs for speed or safety? I have 300 photosets, 410 animals distributed unevenly among them, 33,000 files, 62 GB.
I now see the ACDSee user forum, thank you! Even a section for the Mac version. Have bookmarked it and will check it out when I'm back. Great to hear it takes care of your 8TB. Boggles the mind to think of managing 8TB of manta images, but we may get there yet. 😊
Any thoughts on Bibble, QPict, or Picasa? They may be rather family-pictures oriented. Extensis portfolio?0 -
[quote="NNN634727113110114304" wrote:
my folder structure is intense: Photoset/island/black-or-chevron-color/animal-name/used-in-Guide-or-not and each of these 5 layers is branched.
Yikes! You probably already know this, but a good DAM program would make content-based folder hierarchies and usage-based sub-folders unnecessary. All of your organizational needs could be accomplished by hierarchical keywords, or galleries or catalog sets instead of folders and sub-folders.
I'm not as familiar with the Mac-friendly alternatives to Media Pro, but I would like to put in a plug for its predecessor Expression Media, which is still available in Phase One's Expression Media archive section. It doesn't suffer from the instability and awful UI changes introduced with Media Pro. Drawbacks: it's no longer being developed so will have a shorter life span than Media Pro if/when you upgrade to the next Mac OS (I'm not sure if it works on Lion, but it does work on Snow Leopard); eventual issues with collection size or catalog size limits (128,000 images, 1.8 GB catalog size). If it works, you could break up the collection into two or more catalogs if necessary. Expression Media is still the best and most stable DAM for Mac, and I think it could handle your current collection in one catalog, as long as you don't generate full size previews for each image.0 -
I happen to disagree with Syncrasy on the advantages of a catalog base DAM over a folder base...
And it isn't a matter or right and wrong, but more of how you approach things. Here is why....
If you are comfortable of knowing how things work, and have already organized things in a logical sturcture, and if you intend to access those files from a system or from remote location, I would NEVER put my eggs in one basket.
So...If your DAM doesn't have Folder browsing supprot, I would FORGET about it..as I have for Lightroom being a DAM..It just simply isn't one. I would take it off the list right away for your needs or any true DAM needs. Three and compatible PSD file formats?? REALLY!?.
Extensis Portfolio looks powerful. I tried it out. I didn't see a Folder structure browsing available, although I might have overlook an option to show it(?)....then I noticed I cant have my preview on the side or another monitor, and I left it alone.
If Syncrasy is right about the MAC and the version of Expr Media as a stable DAM, I would use that. I would look closely at ACDSee as an alternate. There are others like cPicture, Breeze Browser, FastStone...and these are not so much to catalog or really author the images, but to see and manage what is there. BUT, for MAC, I am not as familiar as I used to be when I used them.0 -
Hi Karey,
You did post in a phaseone user forum so probably most feedback is from Media Pro (or Expression Media) users. (me too 😊 )
A better resource for you (for this question anyway) i think is the DAM book forum (1) and dpBestflow (2).
My best advice is to gather a good as possible understanding of DAM (i.e. the difference between browsers and databases) before arrange your DAM infrastructure (so not only the software).
Peter Krogh's DAM book for photographers should get you all the nececary information about it.
Roelof
Resource 1: (there is a special topic "Choosing Software")
Resource 2:0 -
Raffi3 raises some good points that I hadn't considered. In fact, I think my reaction to your folder structure was probably too hasty. Now that I look at your folder names more closely, it appears that they describe exclusive qualities (e.g., a manta ray is either chevron or black, but never both). So there's no reason to dismantle your folder structure if you like it and it's logically coherent.
In a "pure DAM" approach, hypothetically speaking, one might organize a similar collection of manta ray images without the emphasis on the "parent" island/location. After importing the images in their current folder structure and doing all the tagging, the images then could be put in a single, flat folder structure and organized purely via the power of the DAM software. So, for example, even if the same manta ray species is associated with more than one island, all the images of that species could be found quickly. But if you can get the same search results with keywords and your current folders, a "pure DAM" approach might not be necessary for your purposes. In my own work, I like to use the DAM features as much as possible. I do use folders, but typically only for processing "buckets" and derivatives (print versions, etc), similar to the methods described in Peter Krogh's book.
Either way, with Expression Media or Media Pro, you get the best of both worlds: a powerful set of DAM organizing tools (e.g., catalog sets, hierarchical keywords, etc.) and a folder browser.0 -
If these images are important and you expect it to grow, for a long time use, reading the link Roelof posted would be a good idea and time well spent.
I have Media Pro and I have faith and hopes for it, but so far it isn't my main DAM. As Syncrasy points out, and I would recommend, having one that does the cataloging, ala TheDAMBook/PeterKrogh, with folders, You will have a handle of where things REALLY reside, and how you can use the catalog to work with them. Or let that be a background feature. ACDSee allows it to work this way. You continue your routine backups of your actual files, and you have a catalog backed up independent of each other so you don't lose out. If you were ever to change DAMs, You would be in a tough situation. Often all those Keywords or ratings DON'T get translated over automatically. Some DAMs don't use standard fields. (Unless you have LightRoom specifically save Meta to file, it is only recognized in the catalog, not the file). Take that file or a version/derivative of it, and send it off...It won't have the info you input. It will likely have the default camera info.
You are likely at the point of "whatever, let me just try one of these out already"...which you should be 😊
Lots of these details and limitations will not mean a much, until that one day you need to change something in the way you work. I value my images and trust myself more than handing the responsibility entirely over to a DAM. Backup back up, and backup 😊0 -
Either way, with Expression Media or Media Pro, you get the best of both worlds: a powerful set of DAM organizing tools (e.g., catalog sets, hierarchical keywords, etc.) and a folder browser.
Syncrasy, i disagree 😊
I'm not the only one who thinks that a folder browser (like bridge) should show the content of a folder immediately.
EM/MP don't, they just show a representation of the content on a particulair moment. You have to update to see the content as it is on this moment.
I don't consider this as a disadvantage, it's just a characteristic of a DAM.
Somewhat offtopic but i din't want confuse Karey more than se probably already is right now 😊
Roelof0 -
[quote="rmoorlag" wrote:
Either way, with Expression Media or Media Pro, you get the best of both worlds: a powerful set of DAM organizing tools (e.g., catalog sets, hierarchical keywords, etc.) and a folder browser.
Syncrasy, i disagree 😊
I'm not the only one who thinks that a folder browser (like bridge) should show the content of a folder immediately.
EM/MP don't, they just show a representation of the content on a particulair moment. You have to update to see the content as it is on this moment.
I don't consider this as a disadvantage, it's just a characteristic of a DAM.
Somewhat offtopic but i din't want confuse Karey more than se probably already is right now 😊
Roelof
Ohhhh, thanks for clarifying this, Roelof. I use "Auto Update" for most of my folders, which does take a few seconds to refresh, and I guess I have become accustomed to the time lag. Maybe "pseudo folder browser" is a more accurate description? I hope I haven't confused Karey. Karey, are you still reading this?0 -
You folks got WAY ahead of me, I haven't read it since the first reply to my last post. The forum quit notifying me that new replies were in... OMG what info and considerations you present! Replying individually:
syncrasy » Sun May 20, 2012 2:08 pm
I already have the folders so I'm sticking with that organization scheme - makes a folder browser like Bridge very imporant. Have bookmarked Expression Media's download page and will try that if I get completely frustrated with the 60-day trial of MediaPro. Thanks for that!
syncrasy » Sun May 20, 2012 2:08 pm
Eggs in one basket isn't my way either! ACDSee's Mac version was described as immature in a couple of forums. I really do need a catalog system. Wounds? Females seen at Isla Socorro? You betcha.
moorlag » Sun May 20, 2012 10:30 pm
Good advice to get overview, will read those links (duly bookmarked).
syncrasy » Mon May 21, 2012 4:21 am
Knowing which island was visited permits us to calculate swim speeds and determine habitat extent; hopefully later determine migration routes. We're looking at one population of a single species, there are other populations of this species around the globe. Perhaps our colleague working witha population in Ecuador will find some of our animals in his photos!
Keywording in Bridge will help me find animals with similar attributes (>6 belly spots) across the existing folders - very slow with Mac's Spotlight and Bridge's Collections. It's the relationship between the images/animals/locations that are important here, not the option of creating output (other than adjusting the color layers for clarity of markings) which is hard to understand for photographers whose output is their product.
syncrasy » Mon May 21, 2012 4:21 am
Images are our data, we are nothing without them - we do tag a few animals but that's incredibly limited in its contribution to our understanding of this population. Yes I need both folders and catalog. I have 3 backup drives, one of which travels with me.
Am in kindergarten with keyword integration between Bridge and MediaPro-must sync every time I make a change in MediaPro, also in Bridge? Once written to XMP sidecar it should be visible by anything that reads this no matter where the file moves, right? I wouldn't want to put all that effort into a clandestine set of fields seen only by one program that could be changed or go under in the future.
rmoorlag » Mon May 21, 2012 7:48 pm
I do like Bridge's folder visibility. I'd like it if allllll my folders could be "watched" by the catalog program. Haven't gotten that far in my trial of MediaPro yet. Generally I don't change the folder contents once I've identified all the animals and their best image is in (oh no!) FileMaker Pro. Sure I could continue programming FileMaker to show the characteristics for which I make keywords, but not with this many files and more to come!
I think I'm keeping up with you!
syncrasy » Mon May 21, 2012 11:02 pm
Maybe not a problem to keep Bridge & MediaPro (or equivalent) open while identifying mantas in incoming photo sets. Or, maybe just Bridge. Separate images into folders with the animal's name, as I do now - is this image that manta or the other one? Compare and assign to folders. Once that's done, add keywords, then adjust the images and keywords are retained. When the whole photo set is done, then imput into the catalog. Also, compare incoming images into those in the catalog - we've only got the right fin showing here but the markings are clear, let's see the other right fins.
Whaddaya think???
Karey0
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