Skin tones Nikon D800/600
I am struggling to get pleasing skin tones with either my Nikon D800 or D600 - particularly with infants or young children. I am using the generic D800 profile - tried all the curves, even experimented with profiles of other cameras. I have fiddled with the colour editor and colour balance. When the picture is white balanced using either a grey card ( and I've tried a white card) or a pre-white balance is set in camera the resulting picture to my eyes has an unpleasant orange cast. Out of desperation I have downloaded a trial of Capture NX2 and the cast is gone. The colour may not be entirely to my preference, but it is at least a good starting point.
I know I'm not the only one complaining about the Nikon profiles provided by Capture One, but has anyone any suggestions on how to deal with this - other than move to capture NX or has anyone had any constructive feedback from a support case with Phase One
I've got to add - I really don't want to have to use NX
Cheers
Lotus
I know I'm not the only one complaining about the Nikon profiles provided by Capture One, but has anyone any suggestions on how to deal with this - other than move to capture NX or has anyone had any constructive feedback from a support case with Phase One
I've got to add - I really don't want to have to use NX
Cheers
Lotus
0
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Please create a support case and provide a Color Chart.
From our tests the color chart reproductions are accurate, therefore color is accurate.
Skin tone is a unique color for everyone, so color repro is subjective.
With specified colors we can help to ensure proper reproduction.0 -
The colour rendition in CO on my D800 is also pretty bad. Skin tones are orangey as you say. Reds are also very orange looking, in fact the images almost look dirty. I tried to create an icc profile using the colour editor but then CO fails to load the icc profiles.
I am currently using Lightroom and the built-in "Camera Standard & Camera Portrait" Camera Calibration Profiles and they are practically identical to NX2. The Adobe Standard profile is also very good if it is tweaked...
+5 Red Hue
+10 Blue Hue0 -
Thanks for responding sizzlingbadger - at least I know I'm not the only one seeing the reddy/orange/muddy colour. I used to use LR, but I really want to be able to use CO - I love the interface and the results when I can get the colour right. I find this impossible with pale children's skin so I end up having to faf around in PS to get something acceptable. I want to persevere and try to get a base icc profile suitable for portraits in the studio with flash. I don't have a color checker passport, but have just ordered one and I will submit a support case as Drew suggested once it arrives. I don't know how or even if it is possible to create a better profile using the card without additional software - but if anyone knows of a link to instructions this would be appreciated. 0 -
I've had no trouble in matching colours between Capture NX2 and Capture One Pro 7 for any of my Nikons.
Are you using a suitable proof profile? Rendering Intent?
The orange tone you're seeing: Would that be on your screen or when printing, or both?
Best of luck.
Cheers,
Mogens0 -
We work exclusively in the studio with flash- only family happy snaps outside. I output all files as ProPhoto Tiffs so use ProPhoto as the proof profile. The rendering intent is the default, perceptual, but issue is the same if I change it to Relative.
There on the screen (calibrated with i1display pro)- not there when I print because I deal with it one way or another. But my portraits tend to be pretty yellow - too yellowy if I am not careful.
The red/orange tones are like a cast across the whole image. Fair-brown hair takes on the same color as the face, whites of eyes are muddy. It is a visual relief to change the white balance to sunny which cuts the yellow, but then all colors are off.
It becomes a real issue when dealing with infants and fair children where there is so little color anyway to tweak and impossible to separate the skin and hair unless all skin is masked. I have just run the last lot of photos through NX and yes, they are a bit on the pink side but just opening them they look great compared to pics I have spent literally hours on in CO.
Out of interest are you getting the matching colours NX2-CO7 on landscapes or portraits, flash or daylight?0 -
Lotus0...
No chance of seeing a support case from you so we can help? ☹️0 -
There sure is - you guys have helped me out before. But you want a color chart and I don't have one. We are in the sticks here - no one in Perth has one in stock. But I have one on order. 0 -
I believe you have colour management issues:
You wrote: "When the picture is white balanced using either a grey card ( and I've tried a white card) or a pre-white balance is set in camera...". Capture One Pro is ignorant of any and all in-camera white balance settings.
You wrote: "There on the screen (calibrated with i1display pro)- not there when I print because I deal with it one way or another..." With proper colour management there shouldn't be that difference.
Then your flashes may have issues such as spikes at certain wavelengths, which cannot be solved by mere gray-balancing. You''ll need to make measurements off a colour chart, lighted by your flashes, which is exactly what Drew suggested. Why not take him up on his offer? You use flash a lot; I don't. That may account for the differences in what we're we're seeing.
Cheers,
Mogens0 -
Its not a colour management issue, if it was then ACR / Aperture etc would have the same problems. Aperture seems to have the best "out of the box "colours but they are over saturated so have to be reigned in a bit 😊
I have an xrite Color Checker and I can shoot that in daylight and send it in to support if it helps. I rarely shoot product photography so colour doesn't have to be spot on but I would like red things in my photos to be red, not dirty orange. I'm not wanting CO to match NX2 either as the Nikon colours have a "look" all of their own too.
I really want to use Capture One Pro but at the moment I have several issues, I have submitted cases for most of these)
Colour doesn't seem to be that good especially the reds. Blues and greens seem to be pretty good in most lighting conditions.
I can't round trip easily to PS
Tiffs updated outside of the CO catalog are never re-processed (I have a case open for this) see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhcEV0T67G0
I need the file rename function to support image seconds, not just minutes and hours
I would like to be able to create an icc profile from a colour checker passport for when I do shoot products
Generally the whole application seems to be buggy, stuff will just stop working or my images will re-order for no apparent reason. Sometimes starting up CO takes ages and it seems to relink referenced files again and again.The icc profiles I create fail to load and all I see is a 0 in the icc drop down.
CO really has a great opportunity if it can get its act together quickly enough. Its a real love-hate affair for me at present.0 -
Example, all un-adjusted. The school uniform is red.
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3689/10842879664_ac1560d4e0_o.jpg0 -
I fully agree with the OP. I always feel that Capture One rendition have a brownish/orange feel for skin tones, and especially for yellow grass.
Unfortunately, I tried to solve the problem with a the support but never got a solution. Apparently, the support agreed with me but not the devs.
I am back to LR5 now, which has its own quirks for colors: liveless or over saturated, you never get the sweet spot as C1. But VSCO partially solved the problem.
I really hope I can get back to C1 with an updated profile.0 -
[quote="Romain7" wrote:
I fully agree with the OP. I always feel that Capture One rendition have a brownish/orange feel for skin tones, and especially for yellow grass.
They surely do (those for more recent cameras, anyway) - this exact same "characteristic" has been discussed here more than once before in the context of the Canon 7D.
My workaround for the excessively orange "Capture One Look" in 7D conversions is to use a profile from an older body - typically the Canon 5D Mk II profile, which is much less orange-happy, while still maintaining decent saturation in the blues.
It's easy enough to make this a semi-permanent fix by renaming the offending profile such that it isn't called by default, and copying/renaming a more suitable profile so that it is.0 -
@Keith:
I tried to modify the ICC to correct the issue but I find it very difficult to get something decent you may use as a permanent replacement.
As for using other ICC, they are not built for the camera. I don't know if it is effective for the 7D but I don't get very good color by using them.
Given C1 price tag, it is a shame we don't have proper color out of the box ☹️0 -
With color, you cannot satisfy everyone. We could make them extremely exact after several color-charts, but would that make them pleasing? Nop.
Also, the ICC's are extremely depended on the lightsource, its spectrum and whitebalance.
In short, there is no "one size fits all" when it comes to color. CO has a lot of tools to tweak the profiles, and I have posted links to tutorials in this thread. Give them a try.0 -
[quote="Christian Gr" wrote:
With color, you cannot satisfy everyone. We could make them extremely exact after several color-charts, but would that make them pleasing? Nop.
Also, the ICC's are extremely depended on the lightsource, its spectrum and whitebalance.
In short, there is no "one size fits all" when it comes to color. CO has a lot of tools to tweak the profiles, and I have posted links to tutorials in this thread. Give them a try.
The icc profiles don't work, as I stated in a previous post above. The dirty orange school uniforms don't look pleasing to my eyes. I actually used them an example because after taking some photos at the local school for pet day I had several people ask me why the uniforms were orange and not red. If non photogs and young kids can see it then I'm at a loss why Phase One thinks its acceptable.0 -
[quote="sizzlingbadger" wrote:
[quote="Christian Gr" wrote:
With color, you cannot satisfy everyone. We could make them extremely exact after several color-charts, but would that make them pleasing? Nop.
Also, the ICC's are extremely depended on the lightsource, its spectrum and whitebalance.
In short, there is no "one size fits all" when it comes to color. CO has a lot of tools to tweak the profiles, and I have posted links to tutorials in this thread. Give them a try.
The icc profiles don't work, as I stated in a previous post above. The dirty orange school uniforms don't look pleasing to my eyes. I actually used them an example because after taking some photos at the local school for pet day I had several people ask me why the uniforms were orange and not red. If non photogs and young kids can see it then I'm at a loss why Phase One thinks its acceptable.
I can of course see that CO isn't as overly saturated red as Aperture and LR5, and that CO represents the color with a more slightly yellowish tint. If you see them as orange I would suggest that you hardware-calibrate your monitor.
So why do CO render red with a slight yellow tint? Because of skin-tones. Skin-tones are more pleasing when they are tinted towards brown, not red.
As I mentioned, with color, you cannot satisfy everyone and the defaults might not suit everyone.
Can you easily change that default? Yep, very easily indeed!0 -
The red jacket samples posted might have been more useful, if the three images had been processed to the same brightness level.
The Lightroom example is much brighter than the other two, with a more washed-out look to the greens and blues.
Thus even the Lightroom and the Aperture samples as presented here are very different.
Which one is "correct" is anybody's guess.
I soft proofed the image, using a profile for printing on glossy paper:
The jacket as rendered
...by Lightroom: 80% of the red jacket is out of gamut.
...by Capture One: 25%
...by Aperture: 70%
Which one offers the best ready-for-print rendition in the reds is very obvious.
Cheers,
Mogens0 -
[quote="mli20" wrote:
Which one is "correct" is anybody's guess.
It's not a matter of guesswork, Mogens - all you need to do is cast an eyedropper/sampler over the images. The coat in the Cap One image is far too orange to be called "red".
It's a pretty fundamental requirement that red should be red, rather than orangey-red...0 -
I opened the JPG file from the girl with the red coat in CO7, made minor tweaks with the Color Editor and achieved similar coloring as from the other raw converters in the comparison (but with much more detail and tonality).
Note that when working from raw, the results would be even better.
For your information, as an indication only, the adjustments with Color Editor (sample on red coat) on the JPG were:
Hue Rotation -1,0
Saturation 2,3
Lightness 1,5
As you might know you can save this as a preset and if you like the result as your generic starting point, save it as an ICC profile. Optional make this profile your default profile for this camera. This way you leave the original program's profile in place, and your workflow is not interfered after an update, as is the case with renamed profiles in the program's app folder.0 -
[quote="Keith Reeder" wrote:
[quote="mli20" wrote:
Which one is "correct" is anybody's guess.
It's not a matter of guesswork, Mogens - all you need to do is cast an eyedropper/sampler over the images. The coat in the Cap One image is far too orange to be called "red".
It's a pretty fundamental requirement that red should be red, rather than orangey-red...
I was commenting on the difference between the greens and the blues, not the reds. But, if the Lightroom and Aperture examples had been processed to look identical in the greens and the blues, would the red jacked still look the same?
We are left to guess.
Cheers,
Mogens0 -
[quote="mli20" wrote:
We are left to guess.
The thread is about skin tones and reds, Mogens.
And again it's not a matter of guesswork: many Capture One camera profiles clearly and verifiably bias strongly towards orange.
This isn't a problem for me - I don't shoot people, so skintones don't matter - but there's no question about Capture One profiles tending to push reds towards orange: again, it's something that has been discussed on a number of occasions, about a number of cameras.0 -
[quote="Keith Reeder" wrote:
[quote="mli20" wrote:
We are left to guess.
The thread is about skin tones and reds, Mogens.
And again it's not a matter of guesswork: many Capture One camera profiles clearly and verifiably bias strongly towards orange.
Did I claim otherwise? No.
I explained why I can't consider the red jacket example evidence of anything.
Cheers,
Mogens0 -
[quote="Drew" wrote:
Lotus0...
No chance of seeing a support case from you so we can help? ☹️
Drew - I'm ready to submit a support case - just a couple of questions re submission - will a jpeg do and how large is too large via the support site?
Thanks
Lotus0 -
Lotus,
We need a RAW, as we have no basis for what a JPEG has been through between capture and creation.
No file the D800 can create is too big, just zip it and send it. If you do error out let us know in the case and we'll set you up with the FTP.0 -
[quote="mli20" wrote:
The red jacket samples posted might have been more useful, if the three images had been processed to the same brightness level.
The Lightroom example is much brighter than the other two, with a more washed-out look to the greens and blues.
Thus even the Lightroom and the Aperture samples as presented here are very different.
Which one is "correct" is anybody's guess.
I soft proofed the image, using a profile for printing on glossy paper:
The jacket as rendered
...by Lightroom: 80% of the red jacket is out of gamut.
...by Capture One: 25%
...by Aperture: 70%
Which one offers the best ready-for-print rendition in the reds is very obvious.
Cheers,
Mogens
They were un-adjusted sRGB jpg's so your experiment was pointless. I was just comparing the "hue" not the saturation or tone.
CO would print the reds more orange / yellow in any case. As Christian has now stated above CO does this on purpose to get better skin tones so at least I know now that its not something I am doing wrong.
My setup is fully hardware calibrated too.
I don't mend tweaking the hues and then storing them as an icc profile, but it doesn't work properly and with all the other bugs in CO at present I don't have time to start fighting another one.0 -
[quote="mli20" wrote:
Did I claim otherwise? No.
In which case you might want to stop repeatedly suggesting that we're left to guess what's going on here.I explained why I can't consider the red jacket example evidence of anything.
I really don't think anyone's worried about trying to get your agreement, Mogens - sorry, but it's simply not important whether we get your buy-in to the premise under discussion.
The simple fact - as amply confirmed by Sizzlingbadger's post above - is that Capture One camera profiles often render reds with a hue shift towards orange. Whether or not you're persuaded of this doesn't change what some of us have known to be true for a long time.0 -
Color is really subjective and can't be universally "correct" in each and every situation. As a digitech I've spent countless hours trying to match colors from all kinds of sources using C1 and LR depending on my clients' preferences. It's probably better for the OP to move to the software package he prefers when doing color output because other people may love how the Nikon profile looks currently.
For instance, just worked on a shoot with a major A-list celebrity actress recently using a Nikon D800 for a worldwide fashion campaign. We used the standard Nikon D800 profile in C1 (with Film Standard curve), added a touch of contrast using curves, and adjusted white balance by hand to match the mood/tone of the art direction. The skin tone looked amazing and colors were very pleasing (even a red dress used in one shot looked gorgeous, color wise).
Recently opened those files in LR just to see what the difference is and either I'm simply used to or just prefer C1, but the images and color looked horrendous in Lightroom. Blotchy skin tones and reds looked way too magenta to my eyes. I'll say this, LR looks more realistic and/or accurate to what I see with my eyes but for portraits/fashion, reality is not what is always needed. C1 always had more of a negative film-like look to me and looks more pleasing color wise. The skin tones tend to be more forgiving and smooth. Areas of skin discoloration are typically blended better in C1 vs LR. To each, their own.0 -
I don't disagree with any of that Terence.
But we are not all fashion portrait photographers, CO should maybe give us a "general" and "portrait" icc profile which would make the tool much more useful. BTW try the built-in "Camera Standard" & "Camera Portrait" camera profiles in Lightroom, they will be much better than the "Adobe Standard" profile that is used by default.
If I could the icc profiles in the colour edit tool to work reliably I'd be happy 😊0 -
[quote="Terence2" wrote:
Color is really subjective and can't be universally "correct" in each and every situation.
Nevertheless, when something's supposed to be a proper red as originally seen by the photographer, and a converter renders the red as orange-red on a hardware-calibrated monitor, that's objectively incorrect. Capture One would render a similar red on a colour checker card in the same way, and that's not a subjective discrepancy, it's just wrong.
Colour accuracy is a photographic fundamental (that's why we buy expensive monitors, hardware calibrate them and wave colour checker cards in front of our cameras at the drop of a hat). As SB suggests, it might be the time for "Portrait" and "Standard" profiles for those of us who don't shoot people, to choose from.
And in the absence of that, the default profiles really should be something like accurate.(even a red dress used in one shot looked gorgeous, color wise).
I'm sure it did, Terence - but "gorgeous" and "colour inaccurate" are not mutually exclusive.
This bias towards orange is the reason for the "Capture One Look" - and for the most part it's great. But if colour accuracy matters - and for me as a bird/wildlife photographer, sometimes it matters a lot - situations like the one under discussion, where I know how the colours are supposed to be and I want them that way, are when I look to a different converter.
There's no problem with the idea of playing with colour to get a particular look (the inexplicable popularity of looks like bleach bypass attest to this), but surely we need to start from reasonably accurate colours, or at least have that option.0 -
[quote="Keith Reeder" wrote:
but surely we need to start from reasonably accurate colours, or at least have that option.
You have every possibility to set a new default and then you would not be bothered by CO's defaults.0
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