schneider 35mm cropped in C1 by default
Hi,
I am a new user and I have an XF IQ3100 trichromatic and the 80mm the 35mm and the 150mm f2,8
I used to work on lightroom since the arrival of the xf.
I have a question about the 35 mm and C1,
When I open a file shoot with the 35 in C1 with distortion correction activated my picture is cropped but the final resolution is still 11806x8708.
If in C1 I eliminate the crop i get a final file of 11835x8878,
I was examined the 2 files and I can't see any particular problem in the area which where cropped in first place.
As the physical output of the IQ3100 is 11806x8708 I can't understand whats going on.
If the file is cropped by C1 by default but the final output is still 11608x8708 this means the the file is oversampled to get the final resolution. And if I eliminate the crop, as I get a bigger file, it means that also in this case the file is oversampled to get the final resolution of 11835x8878.
If I look the picture on the display of the IQ I see it with out crop.
Thankyou and sorry for my english!
Lorenzo
I am a new user and I have an XF IQ3100 trichromatic and the 80mm the 35mm and the 150mm f2,8
I used to work on lightroom since the arrival of the xf.
I have a question about the 35 mm and C1,
When I open a file shoot with the 35 in C1 with distortion correction activated my picture is cropped but the final resolution is still 11806x8708.
If in C1 I eliminate the crop i get a final file of 11835x8878,
I was examined the 2 files and I can't see any particular problem in the area which where cropped in first place.
As the physical output of the IQ3100 is 11806x8708 I can't understand whats going on.
If the file is cropped by C1 by default but the final output is still 11608x8708 this means the the file is oversampled to get the final resolution. And if I eliminate the crop, as I get a bigger file, it means that also in this case the file is oversampled to get the final resolution of 11835x8878.
If I look the picture on the display of the IQ I see it with out crop.
Thankyou and sorry for my english!
Lorenzo
0
-
This is because of the lens correction being automatically applied by Capture One. If you don't want it to happen, there's a little menu you get when you click ... on the top right of the lens correction tool that includes an item saying Disable Default Lens Correction. Whether you see any problems in the areas that were cropped out rather depends on the subject matter of the photo - does it have any straight lines for instance that would make it obvious that there was pincushion or barrel distortion.
And your English is fine.
Ian0 -
Thank-you for your replay,
Since I eliminated the crop in the distortion correct version and the result is perfect (in architectural photography) I wonder if there is a way to set C1 to have the distortion correction ON but without the crop or if I have to cancel the crop manually.
Lorenzo0 -
[quote="NNN636441963776945797" wrote:
Thank-you for your replay,
Since I eliminated the crop in the distortion correct version and the result is perfect (in architectural photography) I wonder if there is a way to set C1 to have the distortion correction ON but without the crop or if I have to cancel the crop manually.
Lorenzo
Given that you have a completely Phase hardware system including the camera, back and lens, you may find it useful to talk the question through with your local Phase partner or a Phase technical person in order to understand it completely.
This is a User to User forum and I suspect there will be very few regular user visitors who can provide a full explanation for you based on their own experience with the hardware and software.
HTH.
Grant0 -
[quote="SFA" wrote:
[quote="NNN636441963776945797" wrote:
Thank-you for your replay,
Since I eliminated the crop in the distortion correct version and the result is perfect (in architectural photography) I wonder if there is a way to set C1 to have the distortion correction ON but without the crop or if I have to cancel the crop manually.
Lorenzo
Given that you have a completely Phase hardware system including the camera, back and lens, you may find it useful to talk the question through with your local Phase partner or a Phase technical person in order to understand it completely.
This is a User to User forum and I suspect there will be very few regular user visitors who can provide a full explanation for you based on their own experience with the hardware and software.
HTH.
Grant
Well, I'd like an answer as well. C1 doesn't just do this for P1 hardware; I see the same cropping on my lenses/cameras (mostly Canon) too. So while the suggestion is a good one, I hope Lorenzo can get back with some feedback!0 -
The lens correction works by stretching the image beyond the original frame.
The "crop" you see represents the original frame and ratio.
What's outside of the crop is waste data; theoretically.
I some times go and adjust the crop frame if there is some detail right on the edge of the frame that I want to preserve.0 -
Emile,
As gusferlizi has mentioned the cropping is quite normal and on some cameras - especially Compacts that shoot RAW and most of the recent mirrorless stuff which is built down to a size that defeats optical physics without software intervention (or greatly adds to the cost of the lenses), if you want a corrected image cropped to a certain ratio and quality there are likely quite a few pixel to cast aside. Especially true for zoom lenses usually at the wider end but the middle and longer lengths can also be interesting depending on the designer's intentions.
My comment to the OP took into account that the kit in use is extremely high end and it is therefore not unreasonable to seek some very clear technical understanding for future reference. There may be more to the story than just lens correction.
Secondly if the uncropped image is perfect anyway, "why the crop?" sounds like a good question for future reference related to framing and so on.
And thirdly the question of the pixel count, though perhaps somewhat academic to the result with 100Mp available, is also worth understanding so that it stops being a distraction.
I suspect that there are some aspects of the Phase camera and back kit that are quite uniquely handled in Capture One - as one might expect. Auto rotate and Keystone come to mind from past reading but I might be mis-remembering.
Grant0 -
[quote="picman2" wrote:
I already reported similar cropping behaviour with my pictures made with Zeiss lenses and a Sony system. What I find remarkable is that when I open the same picture in either DxO or Lightroom, both of which also have automatic lens corrections based on the particular lens in use, there is absolutely no crop and the corrections are perfectly OK up to the borders and corners. Also strange is that if you use the lens corrections by the manufacturer in C1, then there is no crop. It is only when using C1's own corrections that the cropping happens. And the crop can be considerable, IMHO in some cases absolutely too much. This is not OK, certainly in light of the fact that neither DxO nor Lightroom have this problem and that it only happens with the lens-correction algorithm from C1.
Cheers, Bob.
Yes, but you can turn it off if you don't like it.
Ian0 -
Bob,
For what it is worth whatever algorithm is used by C1 to decide how much of the distorted area to crop, presumably due to how much pixel adjustment has been required on edges, the results for my Canon kit compared to Canon's own adjustments for jpgs, are about the same.
When I have taken the time to look at the edges in detail the differences are very small and if anything the Canon crop settles for a little more imprecision (residual distortion) than Capture One.
In the days of film - especially with SLRs - one could assume edge to edge for what you saw would be edge to edge (provided your viewfinder technique was good enough) on film and if the lens in use had edge quality problems you could allow for it with the framing. That is still true in the digital world.
Back when digital sensors offered about 2Mpixels of data filling the frame could be an important factor to cram in as much information as possible to the output file.
When we are looking at 20Mpixel being a common sensor size the need to pack in every single possible pixel in the framing must surely be less critical.
Once we get to 40Mpix and almost certainly at 100Mpix and beyond the options for conservative framing to eliminate any edge problems with lenses (or in this case the lens correction adjustments that affect size) are clear.
I would suggest that most edge quality decisions based on absolute quality choices will probably be judged in terms of very large size reproduction where anomalies will be more obvious to the viewer than at smaller scales. Different software may set set different parameters in that regard - indeed it is probably good that they do.
If cropping to a specific ratio the ultimate selection will probably be based on the assessment of correction across the most corrected side or diagonal with the result crop possibly appearing to be greater than seems necessary at a glance because of that.
It's not difficult to turn the automatic cropping (or indeed thee entire adjustment) off and work on it image by image if required. In fact I tend to do that anyway with crops (but not because of any auto adjustment issues).
I could see that shooting static subjects that offer the opportunity to get the composition carefully set in camera means one might expect to make the decision once only.
What would be useful, I assume, is some sort of in-camera display that would identify the likely lens correction that will be applied. A bit like a rangefinder display but more accurate?
I could see this being possible in an all Phase equipment and software situations, as per the OP, both in camera and when tethered. However it seem unlikely that this would be an option for any other manufacturers other than in Live view or tethered operation and even then having made a decision, where the option exists, about whether to use the Manufacturer lens information or Capture One assessed values.
Unless I have missed something that already exists I think that is an idea for the Enhancement Request system.
Meanwhile maybe suggest a webinar on the subject of Lens corrections?
Grant0 -
[quote="picman2" wrote:
I already reported similar cropping behaviour with my pictures made with Zeiss lenses and a Sony system. What I find remarkable is that when I open the same picture in either DxO or Lightroom, both of which also have automatic lens corrections based on the particular lens in use, there is absolutely no crop and the corrections are perfectly OK up to the borders and corners. Also strange is that if you use the lens corrections by the manufacturer in C1, then there is no crop. It is only when using C1's own corrections that the cropping happens. And the crop can be considerable, IMHO in some cases absolutely too much. This is not OK, certainly in light of the fact that neither DxO nor Lightroom have this problem and that it only happens with the lens-correction algorithm from C1.
Cheers, Bob.
This is a subject that comes up over and over again, but I understand that it is shady territory, perhaps in need of clearer documentation.
In short, this 'crop' is not the problem you perceive it to be. Let me explain:
Lightroom does virtually the same thing, but it does frame correction for you, and in case of automatic lens correction, it also hides the extra canvas that results from the stretching. You have to go in "Transform" and reduce the scale of the image to expose the rejected data.
What Capture One does different, is to hold the original frame and ratio by simply masking the extra canvas with the crop tool. Now if you want to go and pull back on the frame or change the ratio, it's there and very obvious that you can do it.
Essentially, it is doing the complete opposite of cropping the image!
The manufacturer profile is metadata correction dictated by the camera, so Capture One refrains from manipulating that; that's why there is no 'crop' then.0 -
Very good points, Grant. 0 -
Thank-you for all your replays!
I know how the distortion correction works (I am used to work on lightroom with all my equipment Nikon before and now Sony).
I want to use the distortion correction with the 35 and the 28 because in architectural photography is necessary.
My question was if there is a way to have the correction on and at the same time no crop by default with out the need to take off the crop manually on each shot.
Of course there is no problem with the difference in resolution on the quality aspect but as I have a set of actions in Photoshop to frame my picture and to put my copyright or to make low resolution copies to send to the client for evaluation, the little difference in resolution is a problem as I use different lens!
The difference between what I see in the camera and what i get in C1(if I don't eliminate manually the crop) is not so irrelevant specially in some cases.
I have examined the cropped areas in all the picture I took with the 35 blue ring and since now I was not able to detect any particular problem maybe because I shoot at small aperture (11/16).
With the 28 (which I rented for this particular work) things are different because the quality on borders is relatively poor also with the crop applied (this is true if you look the file at 100% but in normal use I think that even this problem would not be visible)
Probably the problem is my poor experience in C1 as I started to use it ten days ago as I get my phase1 system!
Lorenzo0 -
[quote="picman2" wrote:
I'd like to thank Grant and gusferlizi for the time they have taken to give extensive and comprehensive replies which clarified things for me. I see now where I misinterpreted what C1 is doing.
It might be a good idea to explain this in the user guide, either in the lens correction section or in the crop tool section.
Cheers, Bob.[quote="NNN636441963776945797" wrote:
Thank-you for all your replays!
I know how the distortion correction works (I am used to work on lightroom with all my equipment Nikon before and now Sony).
I want to use the distortion correction with the 35 and the 28 because in architectural photography is necessary.
My question was if there is a way to have the correction on and at the same time no crop by default with out the need to take off the crop manually on each shot.
Of course there is no problem with the difference in resolution on the quality aspect but as I have a set of actions in Photoshop to frame my picture and to put my copyright or to make low resolution copies to send to the client for evaluation, the little difference in resolution is a problem as I use different lens!
The difference between what I see in the camera and what i get in C1(if I don't eliminate manually the crop) is not so irrelevant specially in some cases.
I have examined the cropped areas in all the picture I took with the 35 blue ring and since now I was not able to detect any particular problem maybe because I shoot at small aperture (11/16).
With the 28 (which I rented for this particular work) things are different because the quality on borders is relatively poor also with the crop applied (this is true if you look the file at 100% but in normal use I think that even this problem would not be visible)
Probably the problem is my poor experience in C1 as I started to use it ten days ago as I get my phase1 system!
Lorenzo
You are welcome.
Yes, that all being said, I now recognise that there could be a little box there to check for automatic frame correction, just like there is one for hiding the completely distorted corners!
It should make all this simpler for users coming from Lightroom, even without this need of explanation, and the manual frame adjustment.
I will open a support case with this as a feature request.
Lorenzo, at the moment, I think a workaround for that would be to manually copy the adjustments from one image and apply to all the other ones. Perhaps create a "User Style" for each lens, that only touches those two tools(crop and lens correction).
Cheers0 -
[quote="picman2" wrote:
I'd like to thank Grant and gusferlizi for the time they have taken to give extensive and comprehensive replies which clarified things for me. I see now where I misinterpreted what C1 is doing.
It might be a good idea to explain this in the user guide, either in the lens correction section or in the crop tool section.
Cheers, Bob.
Ditto! Thanks, Grant & Gusferlizi!0
Post ist für Kommentare geschlossen.
Kommentare
13 Kommentare