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Does C1 Pro display tiffs/jpgs in a smaller color space?

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48 Kommentare

  • ChrisM
    [quote="Carlos_" wrote:
    I'm trying to broaden my limited knowledge of C1 (I'm an LR user) and today I found something that strikes me as odd.

    When displaying a jpg file with default adjustments, the colors I see on screen are not correct (slightly desaturated). It's as if the image was being proofed in a smaller color space, but I have already set as proof the same color space of the jpeg file, Adobe RGB in this case (since I think C1 Pro always shows a proof version, whether you want it or not), to no avail. And of course, I've made no edits to the image after importing it. This probably won't be always noticeable, so I'm testing it with an image that has colors outside sRGB, but still into my display's gamut, so that I'm able to notice any clipping... and so it seems for unknown reasons to me.

    Is there any reason why this could happen? Shouldn't interpreted file formats as jpeg be rendered in a neutral way by default in C1 Pro? Thanks.

    Capture one converts all jpeg (as well as tiff) images to sRGB when displaying them in the CO1 viewer. It does not effectively change the color profile of the (jpeg and tiff) images, but the color management to the monitor device is not complete. This happens on Windows as well as on MacOS, and I raised this in several support cases.
    They are aware of the issue, I received confirmation that they have understood the issue, but it has no (immediate) priority to be fixed.
    You might raise it in a support case yourself when you use a wide gamut display.
    For displays with a gamut close to sRGB you should not notice a lot of difference.

    Chris
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  • Carlos_
    Thanks a lot Chris. Yes I have a wide gamut display. I will certainly raise a support case (I assume the only way is via "contact support"). For now I'm using a trial, I hope they'll allow me!
    Thanks again!
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  • NN635734144993553547UL
    When I tried CO 8 I found this problem. The color desaturation happened not only with JPg but also with TIFFs, so all imported TIFFs have desaturated colors. So if you process a TIFF image, you started with a base color that is already washed out from the start.

    I am surprised that they actually have not fixed this problem with version 9. Lightroom does not have this problem. Even a free image viewer like Faststone shows JPEGs vibrantly.
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  • Carlos_
    Yes. I opened a support case, but they haven't answered yet (I did it less than 24 hours ago).

    In the meantime I've realised that as you people said, same thing happens with tiffs: http://blog.phaseone.com/quick-round-trip-photoshop/ , and it's been reported since at least 1 and a 1/2 year ago 🙄 C1, so often praised for its color rendering in raw files, is unable to color manage a tiff file?? ❓ 🤓

    I've also realised auto-mask can't be used on anything other than raw files. This makes C1 much less useful than it could be, unnecessarily in my humble opinion. Auto-mask is a small part of my workflow, but it's not only useful, it's really necessary if I want to make local adjustments on a regular basis.

    I truly hope things like those will eventually get fixed, because Lightroom is clearly headed to mediocrity and obsolescence, and I would like to have a serious alternative without this kind of pitfalls.
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  • BeO
    Top Commenter
    Hi Carlos,

    Anyway, automask work only on high-contrast edges. Do you capture some very specific images that you can only edit when you have an automask feature? I can hardly believe that a missing automask feature makes C1 useless for anyone...

    cheers
    BeO
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  • SFA
    Carlos,

    What cameras are you using?

    C1 performs its edge detection for the masks based on the RAW data.

    I think if you want to work with Auto Mask in what is effectively a pixel editing mode you would, at this time, need to use different software - or use C1 and a different approach to processing along edges.



    Grant
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  • Carlos_
    BeO: That's why I said "close to useless", not useless. It's just one more feature, but one that comes extremely handy for me. Forget about the "useless" word if that's an issue: let's say that lacking this feature makes C1 less useful than it could be. Of course, these are just my thoughts, not an absolute truth. I've edited my previous message just in case. Thanks for answering.

    SFA: Canon 5D Mk II mainly, but nevermind. I could bore you and the rest with all the reasons why I think auto mask should work on all files, but we wouldn't learn anything new (and auto mask functionality wouldn't change a bit). Just one remark, though: I made a mistake, dng's _do_ work with automask, it's lossy dng's that don't (since those files have no mosaic data). I've edited my previous post to remove my wrong remark about dng's. Thanks for answering.
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  • SFA
    Hi Carlos,

    I seem to recall reading that C1 can do more with DNG that have the original RAW data embedded than it can with files that do not store the original RAW data - presumably lossy DNG would fit that description.

    Grant
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  • Carlos_
    Back to the original problem, I did submit a support ticket as ChrisM suggested. They took some days to answer, but they just did and they replied with a very strange message where they are answering things I did not ask (or maybe I'm really bad with words and I did not make myself clear...?).

    Still, they do reply to the color management issue and state that C1 has no problem at all with color management and tiff files, so it has to be a problem with my color management settings and my "conversion platform" (whatever that means).

    I tried to post in the Phase One blog post that I already mentioned (http://blog.phaseone.com/quick-round-trip-photoshop/) but for some reason my comment is never approved (and I've tried to post twice).

    So... just in case anyone encounters the same issue in the future and ends up reading this forum post, the final answer is that according to Phase One, there's no such thing as a problem in C1 when displaying tiffs/jpegs in a monitor, no matter its gamut. And if you do have a problem, it must be caused by your system color settings. I disagree, but there's not much more I can do. So that's it.
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  • ChrisM
    [quote="Carlos_" wrote:
    Back to the original problem, I did submit a support ticket as ChrisM suggested. They took some days to answer, but they just did and they replied with a very strange message where they are answering things I did not ask (or maybe I'm really bad with words and I did not make myself clear...?).

    Still, they do reply to the color management issue and state that C1 has no problem at all with color management and tiff files, so it has to be a problem with my color management settings and my "conversion platform" (whatever that means).

    I tried to post in the Phase One blog post that I already mentioned (http://blog.phaseone.com/quick-round-trip-photoshop/) but for some reason my comment is never approved (and I've tried to post twice).

    So... just in case anyone encounters the same issue in the future and ends up reading this forum post, the final answer is that according to Phase One, there's no such thing as a problem in C1 when displaying tiffs/jpegs in a monitor, no matter its gamut. And if you do have a problem, it must be caused by your system color settings. I disagree, but there's not much more I can do. So that's it.

    Carlos, this is of course not the final answer, system color settings have nothing to do with it. And believe me, Phase one knows about the issue, they just have decided that it will not be a priority to fix it. In which case they act as expected in the situation: keep it under the carpet. I can understand this approach: not many people understand all the neccessary basics on color management, and going deeper into the matter in support cases will only cost valuable time that may be better spent on support cases on issues that they mean to fix soon.
    In other words: you can expect such a reply, likewise you can expect your comments on this specific Phase one blog topic to be removed: I wrote a lenghty reply (to another poster!) myself a month ago, and it was deleted a day later.
    In an ideal world they would be open to people searching for answers as to why their tiff and jpeg images may lack the vibrancy and color depth of the raw images in the CO1 viewer on wide gamut displays. In the real world Phase one will probably want to move on and (perhaps) deal with this issue later when they see fit.
    With the first adobe RGB laptop screen coming, they may in future see the neccessity. For now, they accept the limitations of the sRGB color space.

    I'll summarize the issue once more to take away confusion:

    1) Capture one has full color management of all types of images (raw, jpeg and tiff): it reads the input profiles and applies output profiles correctly, and allows for choosing a working space profile that does not neccessarily have to be the chosen putput profile. This has nothing to do with the display medium, so it is irrelevant here whether you have a sRGB screen or a wide gamut screen. In this sense, Phase one support is correct.

    2) CO1 does not clip the color space of your raw images or shrink it to a certain restricted color space by default: it allows you to choose any desired color space for output, even very large ones (with the color space of your camera as supplied by them to top it). Also here Phase one is right in their reply.

    3) As long as you work on raw images: the conversion to your monitor profile is handled correctly, again no restriction in how wide this color space of your monitor is.
    Now here starts the issue, because: if you have a wide gamut screen, when working on your raw images, they will be displayed with as much vibrancy as your wide gamut monitor's color space allows for. This is because CO1 has proper color management. A wide gamut display can show certain colors with higher levels of vibrancy than a standard sRGB display. If your image contains such colors, the CO1 viewer will display them. Based on what you see in the viewer, you will edit your image and when you send it to the batch for output in tiff or jpeg, you expect to also see the level of saturation intensity when you do e.g. a return from photoshop.

    4) This is where things go wrong: because contrary to the complete and proper color management on raw images, CO1 has no complete color management with jpeg and tiff images when viewing these images in the CO1 viewer.
    Instead of correctly color managing the jpeg or tiff image from the input profile to the monitor profile, the image is first converted to sRGB, and naturally all colors that were shown in the raw image, but fall outside of the limited color space of sRGB, will lose their vibrancy to a certain degree. This is noticeable with all colors that fall inside the gamut of your (wide gamut) display, but outside the limited gamut of the sRGB color space.

    Chris
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  • Bernard PIERRAT
    Carlos and Chris,

    This is because CO1 has proper color management.


    Sorry for that but I totally disagree.
    One can't say that color management is OK when it does not fulfill 20% or you needs.
    Would you buy a car knowing that it will fail 20% of the time and you stay on the side of the road? NO.
    I'm a quality engineer not ready to tolerate such a situation.
    White is white and not gray!
    If Phase One seem to have a good color management then they actualy have a poor quality management.

    I have Nikon D800, DF, D7000 .... and also the 3 wonderful Sigma Merrill cameras.
    I shoot more and more with the Sigma's
    I need to edit tiff files exported from Sigma Photo Pro.
    So the case is a huge concern in that regard.

    Phase One claim they produce the best colors and C01 is able to edit jpeg and tiff.
    Today wide gamut screen is the standard. Are they aware of that?
    How can you take the best of CO1 if you are partially blind with colors?
    If they believe it's fair to "keep it under the carpet" my money will also stay under my carpet..
    I was in love with CO1. Really. Seems that honey moon is going to decline.

    I'm going to prepare patterns and spectrometer for a proper demonstration of the problem,
    and intend to raise the case much further.

    Bernard
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  • Carlos_
    Thanks for your replies. Yes, I think C1 does it "right" in the sense that the software is totally aware of all the embedded color profiles (unlike the average cheap software that is totally oblivious to any color profile), I mean, of course no file is being modified in any way, but for unknown reasons, C1 takes a shortcut when displaying "pixel" images (not raws) on our calibrated wide gamut displays. Maybe they have chosen to focus just on raw files, and don't consider tiff visualization within the scope of the application (or it's only a experimental feature by now).

    I've changed the title of the topic to "Does C1 Pro display tiffs/jpgs in a smaller color space?" to be more accurate. It sounds a bit weird but I couldn't fit a longer title. Also, I say "smaller color space" and not sRGB, just in case it's not exactly sRGB.

    For what it's worth, this was my question to support (back then I was asking just about jpegs, but afterwards I confirmed the same thing was happening with tiffs):

    Most of the time I'm conducting my tests with raw files, but when working with jpegs, I've noticed that those in Adobe RGB or Prophoto RGB appear to be converted (for display purposes at least) to the sRGB colorspace - I can notice because I have a wide gamut display. Changing my proof color space from Capture One makes no difference in this regard, so it looks like C1 does not support displaying jpegs (and maybe tiffs) in anything other than sRGB. Is it really like that?

    The answer from support was:

    We don't have any bugs reported into what you report so i must be a CMS issue locally on your computer wherefore we kindly ask you to check the OS and Monitor CMS settings as conversion platform. As Capture One offer the widest range and more correct color conversion of all Capture One have no idea or intention to limit a colorspace like you descreibe - not even the less used small colorspaces you refere to.


    Still, I want to show my appreciation to PhaseOne support for trying to help me, since after all I'm not a customer at this moment (I'm on the trial period, almost expired by now). And of course thanks to Chris and Bernard for replying. I hope this problem will be fixed eventually, because if PhaseOne engineers were able to create such a fantastic and sophisticated piece of software as CaptureOne, they should be able to fix this issue easily. Although time is limited and as Chris said, they probably have other priorities right now... We'll have to wait and see 🙄
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  • SFA
    Carlos,

    Are you using Windows 10?


    Grant
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  • ChrisM
    [quote="Carlos_" wrote:
    Thanks for your replies. Yes, I think C1 does it "right" in the sense that the software is totally aware of all the embedded color profiles (unlike the average cheap software that is totally oblivious to any color profile), I mean, of course no file is being modified in any way, but for unknown reasons, C1 takes a shortcut when displaying "pixel" images (not raws) on our calibrated wide gamut displays. Maybe they have chosen to focus just on raw files, and don't consider tiff visualization within the scope of the application (or it's only a experimental feature by now).

    I've changed the title of the topic to "Does C1 Pro display tiffs/jpgs in a smaller color space?" to be more accurate. It sounds a bit weird but I couldn't fit a longer title. Also, I say "smaller color space" and not sRGB, just in case it's not exactly sRGB.

    It is sRGB or vèry close to it. I tested this in the course of my support case.

    For what it's worth, this was my question to support (back then I was asking just about jpegs, but afterwards I confirmed the same thing was happening with tiffs):

    Most of the time I'm conducting my tests with raw files, but when working with jpegs, I've noticed that those in Adobe RGB or Prophoto RGB appear to be converted (for display purposes at least) to the sRGB colorspace - I can notice because I have a wide gamut display. Changing my proof color space from Capture One makes no difference in this regard, so it looks like C1 does not support displaying jpegs (and maybe tiffs) in anything other than sRGB. Is it really like that?

    The answer from support was:

    We don't have any bugs reported into what you report so i must be a CMS issue locally on your computer wherefore we kindly ask you to check the OS and Monitor CMS settings as conversion platform. As Capture One offer the widest range and more correct color conversion of all Capture One have no idea or intention to limit a colorspace like you descreibe - not even the less used small colorspaces you refere to.


    Well they had my bug report ❓
    The issue is on both Windows and Mac os, and it certainly isn't related to any color setting by the user or the operating system.

    Still, I want to show my appreciation to PhaseOne support for trying to help me, since after all I'm not a customer at this moment (I'm on the trial period, almost expired by now). And of course thanks to Chris and Bernard for replying. I hope this problem will be fixed eventually, because if PhaseOne engineers were able to create such a fantastic and sophisticated piece of software as CaptureOne, they should be able to fix this issue easily. Although time is limited and as Chris said, they probably have other priorities right now... We'll have to wait and see 🙄
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  • ChrisM
    [quote="SFA" wrote:
    Carlos,

    Are you using Windows 10?


    Grant

    Both Windows (7-8 and 10), and Mac os (10.8-10.9-10.10) have the issue

    Chris
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  • Carlos_
    [quote="SFA" wrote:
    Carlos,

    Are you using Windows 10?


    Grant


    Hi Grant, no, I am using Windows 8.1.
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  • Carlos_
    [quote="ChrisM" wrote:

    Well they had my bug report ❓


    Well it looks like they don't... I couldn't help but reply again, and this was their answer:

    [quote="Support" wrote:
    Hi and thanks fot your feeeback. SInce these posts were recorded we have released an update which im sure the users should try - if not im sure they will report this to us.

    For your WIN8 and Capture One installation it' still not reproduceable here and with the millions of users we have - i have although not heard about this.

    Could you try a WIN7 machine if possible?


    So either they don't consider your report and mine as related, or... I don't know. In fact, I didn't know Capture One had millions of users - I know Creative Cloud has about 6 million users right now, but I thought C1 was under 1 million by a long way. Still, statistics aside, in a certain way I think they got a point... this issue is serious, and I find it strange not finding too many people complaining. Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of people complaining, I've read more reports like mine. But still, not that many as I think there should be. So... I don't know, maybe it just happens to a few people, for unknown reasons? I admit I don't have an explanation.

    Anyway, my trial is about to end so that's it for me. I might reinstall the trial in a different machine eventually (not anytime soon). But I will pay attention to this topic or any new developments. Anyone who encounters this problem, please report to C1 too!
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  • Kurt Hödl
    Hi,
    i am using C1 since a view Weeks, and note very fast that Tiffs after export and reimport are looking absolute not the same..
    (Also when use " edit with.." in C1 the Tiff thats created looks different.. Contrasts are different.. also see the difference by lokking the Histogramm when switching between Tiff and RAW.
    First i am thinking the Tiffs are really different. But when i view the Image in an other Aplication it looks like the raw in C1..
    So for me its cleare the Problem is not the exporting, but the "displaying" from tiffs..(jpgs also..)

    I created Report to C1 Service..

    First answer was i should send a Rawfile packed as EPI tho the Serviceteam..
    i did..
    Next Answer was they cant see any Difference (RAW<>TIFF) so i do.. 🤓

    So i think the Problem is my PC-System..(Win 8.1)
    Then i installed C1 at Work on the PC (Win 7) -> Absolute same Problem...
    Next i get my new PC-System at Home (win10 and the 3rd totally different Hardware..)-> Exakt the same Problem..

    So for my its hard to belive that only the C1-Support cant see this "Fault"..
    But what shoud i do..

    And now i found this Thread.. and it makes me a little Smile. I really don't know what i should think about this, but it has a bad Aftertaste ..

    greets from Austria..

    Kurt
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  • ChrisM
    [quote="digi-foto.at" wrote:
    Hi,
    i am using C1 since a view Weeks, and note very fast that Tiffs after export and reimport are looking absolute not the same..
    (Also when use " edit with.." in C1 the Tiff thats created looks different.. Contrasts are different.. also see the difference by lokking the Histogramm when switching between Tiff and RAW.
    First i am thinking the Tiffs are really different. But when i view the Image in an other Aplication it looks like the raw in C1..
    So for me its cleare the Problem is not the exporting, but the "displaying" from tiffs..(jpgs also..)

    I created Report to C1 Service..

    First answer was i should send a Rawfile packed as EPI tho the Serviceteam..
    i did..
    Next Answer was they cant see any Difference (RAW<>TIFF) so i do.. 🤓

    So i think the Problem is my PC-System..(Win 8.1)
    Then i installed C1 at Work on the PC (Win 7) -> Absolute same Problem...
    Next i get my new PC-System at Home (win10 and the 3rd totally different Hardware..)-> Exakt the same Problem..

    So for my its hard to belive that only the C1-Support cant see this "Fault"..
    But what shoud i do..

    And now i found this Thread.. and it makes me a little Smile. I really don't know what i should think about this, but it has a bad Aftertaste ..

    greets from Austria..

    Kurt

    Kurt (but also others that face the similar issue and the difficulty in getting it confirmed with Phase one support), this is a véry difficult issue to communicate to Phase one support. You need to know more than just the basics about color management or else get caught up in a "yes there is a problem with displaying tiff and jpeg images on a wide gamut display in the CO1 viewer" versus "no there is not, and we have millions of users who have never complained".
    I now a lot about color management and also I got caught up in this tedious situation.
    If you want Phase one to confirm the issue, you will have to present them with scientific proof as I did. (note: not that their confirmation will have them solve the issue).
    In other words: create a file with a color that is inside the (e.g.) prophoto gamut, but outside the srgb gamut. Use a tool that records screen rgb values, and you will see that the proper (original prophoto values) will be shown in e.g. the Photoshop viewer, but that the rgb values as if the file were converted to srgb will be shown in the CO1 viewer.
    That way you avoid the elusive nay-saying of the Phase one support team. But of course it will not mean that Phase one will put this issue high on their priority list. The srgb standard is still very strong in the (professional) imaging community, even though it is seriously constricting, where displaying images on screen is concerned.
    Wide gamut displays will eventually take over, the first laptop with near to full Adobe rgb covering is on its way.
    Note that printing the tiff images from CO1 will not restrict the color range.
    The operating system plays no role in this issue. That's why hunting down the issue by re-installing or trying other windows or mac versions or even other computers is fruitless.

    Chris
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  • Matthias B
    Hi there!

    Iam coming from LR/PS and iam testing C1 for about 2 weeks now. Today I realized a very strange behavior if it come's to JPG.
    Just by opening JPG's with C1 they all look desaturated in some colors ( especially the red's) and the shadows are getting lighter a little bit. All Jpg's are shot with sRGB. It doesnt even matter if the images are exported. The last 2 hours I have tried everything to get it right, but nothing worked.
    I have uploaded a crop from a Jpg. Nothing edited. The first is just opened in LR, the second just in C1. The last one I created a difference of both, so that it's easier to see.
    Have I done something wrong or what is the problem? Never experienced such problems in color managment.
    Links:
    1: https://picload.org/image/rgripldp/001d ... iginal.jpg
    2: https://picload.org/image/rgriplag/002dsc00042c1.jpg
    3: https://picload.org/image/rgriplad/003d ... erence.jpg
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  • John Doe
    Is your process recipe set to sRGB?
    Is your proof profile set to this process recipe?
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  • Matthias B
    Yes, both.

    In the meantime I tried out several other things. It's possible to change the ICC base-characteristics how the file is read.
    The standard for Jpeg's is "Jpeg File Neutral". I tried a few other options, mainly under "others" the "sRGB Color Space Profile". Some things got better, some worse. However, no option gets me near the original file. I uploaded a few samples, again with differences.

    Original: https://picload.org/image/rgrpgicr/001originalsrgb.jpg

    Export with base characteristic "Jpeg Neutral": https://picload.org/image/rgrpgica/002j ... export.jpg
    The difference of these both: https://picload.org/image/rgrpgici/002b ... tdiffe.jpg

    Now with base-characteristic "sRGB Color Space Profile:
    Export: https://picload.org/image/rgrpgicl/003s ... cssrgb.jpg
    And the difference: https://picload.org/image/rgrpgicw/003b ... icssrg.jpg

    Would be nice if someone knows a solution or what maybe the problem or failure on my side.
    Thanks in advance 😊
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  • Matthias B
    Hello again 🤭

    I created a new picture with the build-in color flag tool to show you how C1 reads my Jpeg files. Its really weird because in any other programm the RGB values are exactly what they should be. So, red is 255/0/0 etc. pp. Please open the link and look at the measured colors from C1.
    Again, iam completely in sRGB workspace and recipe. And after exporting, iam getting what I saw in C1 - that part works like intended for me. The problem is clearly in the first step, when C1 "reads" the files.

    Link to Color Circle: https://picload.org/image/rgrpolii/colo ... eutral.jpg

    Thanks in advance.
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  • John Doe
    What happens if you switch to a "Linear Response" curve in the Base Characteristics tool?
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  • Matthias B
    It stays exactly the same. I think its the only option, so "auto" is linear response.
    Have you tried out importing a standard sRGB Jpeg? Are your color values correct? So full red is really 255/0/0 etc pp? I cannot believe iam the only one who experiences this. Later today I will ask a friend of mine if he can reproduce this.
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  • SFA
    [quote="John Doe" wrote:
    What happens if you switch to a "Linear Response" curve in the Base Characteristics tool?


    It should not make any difference since "Auto" only has "Linear" to select.

    The base Histogram for this image and the early ones looks unusual.

    I think this is something to refer to Phase in a Support Case if a full technical understanding is required.

    What can be made of a (presumably) 8bit jpg with already compressed colours may be something that only the experts can describe.


    Grant
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  • Matthias B
    Hi again!

    As I promised I asked a friend of mine to test C1. He did. He used the latest version of C1 and long story short: he get's the exact same results as I do. Our system is both Win10 64bit. (If you want a screenshot from his results, I can upload one, but its basically the same numbers as in the shot I uploaded already.)

    So i tried a different thing. I downloaded an older Version of C1 - C1 8.3.4. Again, the same results with "Jpeg neutral".
    Then I tried a second other thing.
    I installed my old Win7 64Bit and installed the latest C1. Again, the same results.

    Now I dont know what else I could try to get a "normal" Jpeg Color Space in C1.
    With C1 at the current state I just cant even only crop a jpeg because the colors are getting messed up. Its really getting sad because I loved the program so far.
    And the color change is somehow huge and over all Jpeg files which are saved with sRGB.
    Maybe - is this behaviour intended from Phase One? And if so - why? Do you guys never use Jpeg's in C1 just for viewing or managing?

    Phase One - please respond, I really would appreciate it. 😄
    And thanks to everyone here who spends time on this topic!
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  • SFA
    [quote="NNN635965144479597866" wrote:

    Phase One - please respond, I really would appreciate it. 😄
    And thanks to everyone here who spends time on this topic!


    If you want a personal response create a Support Case - as I suggested earlier.

    This is a User to User forum. Some Phase staff kindly participate here when their time and responsibilities allow them to but the official way to get answers is to create a Support Case.

    HTH.


    Grant
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  • Matthias B
    I just send in a ticket.
    I'll keep you up on the topic!
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  • HansB
    For v8 on Mac, I filed a support case for shifted colors and loss of saturation in jpeg and tiff on September 3, 2015.

    For example, (R,G,B) (223,15,32) in any other software became (222,39,34) in CO. The difference for AdobeRGB was bigger than for sRGB.

    PO answered that they are aware of this. Very saturated colors shift the most and lose saturation. And that it will be fixed in an upcoming version.

    It's not fixed in v9.1.1.


    Regards,
    Hans
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