Noise Reduction not applying??
Hi all!
Just recently started using Capture 1 8.3.4 and overall very happy with image results (having migrated from LR6). The only thing I can't seem to figure out is the luminance NR tool. If i zoom in 100% and make changes with the NR Luminance tab, i can see the changes being applied, if i zoom back out slowly, it still applies... once i zoom almost all the way it seems like the applied effects disappears?? When looking at the image fully UNZOOMED, it doesn't matter how high i set the NR luminance level, the image doesn't change... it's like this with ALL my images, regardless of noise level... shooting with nikon d810 and a lumix lx100. using mac OS 10.10. Want to invest fully into this software, but this quirk in the NR luminance tool is keeping me from going all in.. hopefully it's user error. HELP!
Just recently started using Capture 1 8.3.4 and overall very happy with image results (having migrated from LR6). The only thing I can't seem to figure out is the luminance NR tool. If i zoom in 100% and make changes with the NR Luminance tab, i can see the changes being applied, if i zoom back out slowly, it still applies... once i zoom almost all the way it seems like the applied effects disappears?? When looking at the image fully UNZOOMED, it doesn't matter how high i set the NR luminance level, the image doesn't change... it's like this with ALL my images, regardless of noise level... shooting with nikon d810 and a lumix lx100. using mac OS 10.10. Want to invest fully into this software, but this quirk in the NR luminance tool is keeping me from going all in.. hopefully it's user error. HELP!
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What is your image resolution when fully zoomed out?
Grant0 -
Remember, CO8 uses the preview when the preview size matches close to the resolution you are looking at. So at 100% CO8 uses the Raw file for rendering. But as you zoom down, at some point, CO8 switches to the preview that was generated when the image was imported to make adjustments on, it does not regenerate the preview as adjustments are made. I never trust any CO8 adjustments when not at 100%, (Clarity is one of the worst).
Robert0 -
[quote="PhaseoneUser55657" wrote:
Remember, CO8 uses the preview when the preview size matches close to the resolution you are looking at. So at 100% CO8 uses the Raw file for rendering. But as you zoom down, at some point, CO8 switches to the preview that was generated when the image was imported to make adjustments on, it does not regenerate the preview as adjustments are made. I never trust any CO8 adjustments when not at 100%, (Clarity is one of the worst).
Robert
I don't know about that Robert.
Whenever I change anything the preview is revised irrespective of zooming.
At "Preview" size I have less of an interpretation issue for changes with my lower resolution files than the larger ones - less modified data to throw away to get down to the required size I assume.
Grant0 -
not sure what resolution, but I don't think that's the issue since NR color adjustments render just fine when zoomed out. it's only the luminance tool that doesn't render... submitted case to tech support... hope they help figure this out for me... 0 -
[quote="SFA" wrote:
[quote="PhaseoneUser55657" wrote:
Remember, CO8 uses the preview when the preview size matches close to the resolution you are looking at. So at 100% CO8 uses the Raw file for rendering. But as you zoom down, at some point, CO8 switches to the preview that was generated when the image was imported to make adjustments on, it does not regenerate the preview as adjustments are made. I never trust any CO8 adjustments when not at 100%, (Clarity is one of the worst).
Robert
I don't know about that Robert.
Whenever I change anything the preview is revised irrespective of zooming.
At "Preview" size I have less of an interpretation issue for changes with my lower resolution files than the larger ones - less modified data to throw away to get down to the required size I assume.
Grant
agree. all other adjustments render just fine when zoomed out completely...0 -
nobody else with this issue? i tried this on my desktop and same issue... even when exporting, it doesn't seem to apply the NR to the image...
still waiting for tech support to get back to me =/0 -
One of the things about NR is that you can find some application that just "squash" everything or others that are more subtle - call it gentle if you like.
C1 tends to fall into the latter category and, form what I have seen of it, LR into the former.
The problem here, especially with high resolution files, is that the subtlety has to work at full resolution but if you then look at previews that are much less than full resolution the potential for subtlety is not there. So much data has to be discarded to compress the results to the smaller image dimensions that there may not be enough left to play with. At that point any application that has a "squash everything" approach will still appear to function whereas subtlety may not appear to work.
In the short history of digital image processing noise has been a major technical issue and correction of it has traditionally been somewhat less than subtle - subtle would not work well in many cases with early sensor interpretation technology.
The camera manufacturers have improved a lot and of course people manufacturing cameras at the high end - Phase with Medium Format for example - have long been operating in a development area that is less prone to the worst examples of digital image noise.
Which is partly why I asked about the viewing resolution you are using. Two reasons.
Firstly to ascertain whether it is possible that the effect you see is less to do with noise as such and more to do with data compression to fit the screen resolution.
Secondly to consider whether the display resolution, if significantly compressed, would imply that to eliminate the appearance of "noise" might require a completely different approach to the calculation at greatly reduced resolutions. If so the accuracy of editing would seem to be compromised anyway and in ways that might adversely affect the results of other changes when viewed at that resolution.
There may be a strong case to be made for creating an in depth tutorial, if one does not already exist, as an on-line video.
Grant0 -
i understand what you are saying. How do i check image resolution? my display resolution is at 2560 x 1440 on a 27" Dell Display.
I just figured that if i could see the color NR effects take place, i should see the luminance NR effects also... but i really see ZERO effects... i can understand if it was just subtle, but i literally see NO change0 -
What size do you have set for the Preview image? (And what size are the original files - in pixel dimensions.)
I have just been looking at one of my files - shot at ISO3200 on an older camera so it's noisy.
It has various adjustments for sharpness and all the usual stuff and then some NR applied at background level and on an adjustment layer.
If I compare to the original, at normal display size on a 1920x1080 display with the preview size set to that (but obviously displaying smaller on screen) I can readily see differences.
If I pop up a Histogram tool and then toggle the Adjustment layer on and off I can see the changes on the screen and in the histogram at the normal preview size. So far as I can ascertain the histogram in this case is not visibly affected by the NR adjustment (which is good) but the other adjustments are showing that the processing is taking place.
However if I add another layer and make a further selective noise adjustment to a small area the changes are not readily visible on screen at standard preview size. I'm not altogether surprised since there is already a lot of change in the previous instructions and the total changes at this screen viewing size may not do much. Not enough data to play with perhaps
When I zoom in the effects of the extra layer are visible and at 50% zoom I would guess that I am actually viewing at the native preview file resolution. In the Viewer window looking at the entire image I guess my 1920 pixel width is being compressed into perhaps 1024 pixels. Maybe less. 50% is the smallest zoom level this image will register.
The next question is what happens when the image is processed for output or is printed.
In general I think the balance between a subtle blending of "noisy pixel areas" into a decent result is quite a challenge and that may be why a lot of modern imagery opts for the visual consistency of a somewhat plasticized look. Something that is always achievable (one way or another even from the most difficult images when processed by the right people) and fits with the preferences of the "instant" era in which we live.
So I understand what you are saying and share your observation but I'm not convinced that it is safe to assume that the process is not working - rather that the results are often likely to be undisplayable at the size and resolution in use.
I could be wrong though.
Grant0 -
I exported my file as processed and unprocessed TIFFs and they look the same. So to me it seems like no final processing is occurring. Tech support got back to me and said they also experience the same observation and will be submitting it as a bug. They said its select to the camera file type, but what concerns me is that this is observable with my Nikon d810 files as well... 0 -
Well that's interesting and maybe illustrates how complex the image processing stuff really is.
It's very easy to assume that a particular tool does a job a certain way. But then when we get to a particular file type or maybe OS or perhaps GPU, etc., affecting the results it is clearly just not that simple.
Grant0 -
I was actually hoping it was user error as that would be a quick fix. Now seems like might have to wait for a patch? I will probably go through and reprocess some of my older files (canon,Olympus,etc) and see if adjustments occur. I tend to shoot a lot of high iOS / low light stuff so NR is very important to me 0 -
Just for the record (you mentioned reprocessing older files like some Canon):
Color- and luminance noise reduction work for Canon's 350D, 7D, 1Dm3 and 1DX .cr2 files in v8.3.4 on 10.11.1.
Regards,
Hans0 -
so color/luminance NR doesn't work work for canon 5dmk2 raw files, even though it's listed as a supported camera? 0 -
[quote="SFA" wrote:
What size do you have set for the Preview image? (And what size are the original files - in pixel dimensions.)
I have just been looking at one of my files - shot at ISO3200 on an older camera so it's noisy.
It has various adjustments for sharpness and all the usual stuff and then some NR applied at background level and on an adjustment layer.
If I compare to the original, at normal display size on a 1920x1080 display with the preview size set to that (but obviously displaying smaller on screen) I can readily see differences.
If I pop up a Histogram tool and then toggle the Adjustment layer on and off I can see the changes on the screen and in the histogram at the normal preview size. So far as I can ascertain the histogram in this case is not visibly affected by the NR adjustment (which is good) but the other adjustments are showing that the processing is taking place.
However if I add another layer and make a further selective noise adjustment to a small area the changes are not readily visible on screen at standard preview size. I'm not altogether surprised since there is already a lot of change in the previous instructions and the total changes at this screen viewing size may not do much. Not enough data to play with perhaps
When I zoom in the effects of the extra layer are visible and at 50% zoom I would guess that I am actually viewing at the native preview file resolution. In the Viewer window looking at the entire image I guess my 1920 pixel width is being compressed into perhaps 1024 pixels. Maybe less. 50% is the smallest zoom level this image will register.
The next question is what happens when the image is processed for output or is printed.
In general I think the balance between a subtle blending of "noisy pixel areas" into a decent result is quite a challenge and that may be why a lot of modern imagery opts for the visual consistency of a somewhat plasticized look. Something that is always achievable (one way or another even from the most difficult images when processed by the right people) and fits with the preferences of the "instant" era in which we live.
So I understand what you are saying and share your observation but I'm not convinced that it is safe to assume that the process is not working - rather that the results are often likely to be undisplayable at the size and resolution in use.
I could be wrong though.
Grant
sorry, forgot resolution details.
Preview size: 2880
Image size: 4112 x 30880 -
[quote="NNN635817524244873477" wrote:
so color/luminance NR doesn't work work for canon 5dmk2 raw files, even though it's listed as a supported camera?
I didn't say it doesn't work for others than 350D, 7D, 1Dm3 and 1DX.
These 4 are the only one's I have files from. And it works with all of them. Just tested a few minutes ago. 😊
Regards,
Hans
(Edited to add the quote.)0 -
Got it. Would you mind if you sent me a RAW file from any one of those cameras?? 0 -
[quote="HansB" wrote:
[quote="NNN635817524244873477" wrote:
so color/luminance NR doesn't work work for canon 5dmk2 raw files, even though it's listed as a supported camera?
I didn't say it doesn't work for others than 350D, 7D, 1Dm3 and 1DX.
These 4 are the only one's I have files from. And it works with all of them. Just tested a few minutes ago. 😊
Regards,
Hans
(Edited to add the quote.)
or if i sent you a RAW file from my LX100, would you be able to see if NR applies?0 -
I tested some Olympus E-3 and Nikon D3x files friends gave me. Both noise reductions work on them, too. [quote="SFA" wrote:
One of the things about NR is that you can find some application that just "squash" everything or others that are more subtle - call it gentle if you like.
C1 tends to fall into the latter category and, form what I have seen of it, LR into the former.
...
Grant
I fully agree with Grant, for both CO and LR. CO's noise reduction is subtle. But for my use, it's to the point. I do the noise reduction and sharpening steps at 100% view only. The maximum amount of noise reduction possible in CO looks camera specific and ISO related to me. I think, PO puts it into the camera profile.
To increase the effect a bit, you can try lowering the preserved detail ('Detail' slider) and separately add some sharpness if necessary. (Pulling the 'Detail' slider to the max makes the effects of the 'Color'- and 'Luminance'-sliders more visible, just to play with.)
Zooming out makes CO (and any other software) interpolate for displaying. A 50% view averages 2x2 image pixels into 1 display pixel, a 33% view interpolates 3x3 image pixels into 1 display pixel, and so on. Therefore subtle changes are lost in interpolation. For a D3x image, the noise reduction is barely visible at 33% zoom, which is about 'fit' on my old 17" MBP. And the D3x is only 12 Mpix. There's a lot more interpolation in the D810 images with 36 Mpix when zooming out to 'fit'. CO updates the previews in the browser bar after noise reduction, but they are so small, I cannot see the effect of the noise reduction in them.[quote="NNN635817524244873477" wrote:
I exported my file as processed and unprocessed TIFFs and they look the same. So to me it seems like no final processing is occurring.
...
'Unprocessed' in CO means including PO's predefined noise reduction. Note that the 'Color'- and 'Luminance'-sliders are at '50' for default. Set them to '0' for no noise reduction. Whenever the image is processed, the noise reduction must be in there. If it isn't, processing is broken. I exported the D3x image (a noisy high ISO wedding image) with and without noise reduction, and the noise reduction is perfectly applied.
One more thing. If you use 'Structure' from the 'Clarity' tool together with noise reduction, do it carefully. They have contrary effects.
If you want to share one or two of your images here, by dropbox link or so, I will have a look. And I am pretty sure I will not be the only one who is curious enough to do so. I'll see if I can find one of mine that I can share here and maybe a screenshot to show the noise reduction effect.
Regards,
Hans0 -
https://farm1.staticflickr.com/654/22738217221_14b35144d1_c.jpg
@ 50% zoom and full NR luminance and sharpness level (to accentuate noise)
https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5761/22727022855_0f2f9170db_c.jpg
@ 33% zoom and full NR luminance and sharpness level (to accentuate noise)
https://farm1.staticflickr.com/670/22713736662_7ed98465c3_c.jpg
@33% zoom and NO NR luminance and full sharpness level (to accentuate noise)
not sure if you can tell from the small pics, but you can see, especially in the background foliage, of the 33% picture that there doesn't seem to be any noise reduction occurring... and the noise level looks to be the same as the image with no NR applied.
i don't have drop box, but i'll try to set up something and link my RAW file sometime tonight.0 -
Hi Hans,
So i downloaded an ISO6400 canon 7D raw file from DPreview and have the same experience with NR not making a perceivable change when zoomed out, even when viewed full screen at 2560x1440. Perhaps my expectations should be adjusted and i should follow a piece of advise that was given to me, "lock it on ISO200 and forget it!"0 -
First of all a little correction to my earlier post. I stated Zooming out makes CO (and any other software) interpolate for displaying.
, but it is averaging, not interpolation, of course.
I've had a look at your screenshots. And it was a great idea to show the 'Focus' view at 100%.
Please look at noise reduction at a 100% view. Zooming out hides the effects of noise reduction. The 'Focus' view clearly shows that noise reduction is indeed applied.
Why is it barely visible at a 33% view? I'll try to explain.
Simply speaking, the noise reduction matches every pixel to it's surrounding (8) neighbors. For luminance, it matches the RGB luminance to the surrounding (8) RGB luminances. For color, it matches R, G and B separately to the Rs, Gs and Bs to the surrounding (8) Rs, Gs and Bs. It is far more sophisticated than this in reality, for edge detection ('Detail' slider) and stuff. But I hope you get the idea. It is a kind of 3x3 image pixel matching for each single image pixel.
Zooming out to 33% gives you a 3x3 image pixel averaging into 1 displayed pixel.
So already at 33% view, the visible result looks pretty similar (matching and averaging vs averaging alone), while at pixel level there is a lot of difference. And the pixel level is what you are going for, right?
I have done noise reduction on images from my Canon 1DX, shot at ISO 25600 with very pleasing results. There is no need to limit the ISO range, because the noise reduction sliders are 'aware' of the ISO level. This is different to Photoshop, where you need to apply higher values for higher ISOs and lower values for lower ISOs in the filters.
Let me ask you a question. And please don't get me wrong, I am trying to help. What exactly did you expect to see?
Noise reduction is not meant to be a massive blur. But if you want to blur more within CO, you can play with negative values for 'Clarity' and 'Structure' in the 'Clarity' tool. And with the 'Sharpening' tool, you can do a kind of edge mask sharpening on top of it. This is then visible in the zoomed-out images and even in the preview of the browser bar, for as far as it can be shown.
I've tried a D810 RAW image from imaging-resource.com. Everything works just as I expect it to do. It exports correctly as 16-bit tiff into PS, with and without noise reduction. But it wasn't high-ISO.
Regards,
Hans0 -
hi hans,
i guess i'm just used to seeing the difference when zoomed out. You are correct though... when i export as JPEG, the settings are applied. That pretty much verifies what you've been saying. I just wish i was able to see the difference at full preview...Thanks so much for the time in explaining... appreciate it.
I just wonder why when zoomed out, NR color changes are reflected and NR luminance are not, especially if they are reading the same 8 surrounding pixels?
And in other programs such as aperture, LR etc, NR luminance changes are visible when fully zoomed out? different algorithms?
an update with tech support: as of this morning, they have "put in the case with R&D for 33% or lower".0 -
Good news then, the processing is working correctly.
Luminance noise reduction settings should still make a little bit of a difference at 33%. I did a little experiment this afternoon, and CO's views of that Nikon D3x image with and without luminance noise reduction were perfectly identical. (screenshots into PS, 2 layers, blending mode: subtract, result: a perfect black (0,0,0) ) That's definitely not correct.
You were absolutely right to file that support case!
Using a reasonably exposed high ISO image, I really don't notice that issue. Not even in those Canon 1DX images at ISO 12800 and ISO 25600 that needed an increased level of noise reduction. The issue gets completely lost in the averaging when zooming out. But if I use an underexposed, +1.5 stops exposure corrected image (boosting the noise that needs reduction), that issue becomes obvious. Surprise! I never struggled upon it.
Regards,
Hans0 -
Good to know i'm not going crazy. Hopefully they make a patch available soon or something. For now, I'll be using LR6 w/ a rudimentary preset to replicate C1's awesome RAW processing. Will be eagerly waiting for the day i switch over completely.
Thanks again!0
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