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Lost in Monitor Calibration...

Kommentare

43 Kommentare

  • Ian Wilson
    Moderator
    Top Commenter

    I have zero experience of calibrating monitors. But I did watch this video about it just yesterday which may be helpful.

    https://youtu.be/J-SUSeG05Ls 

    Ian

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  • Claude CAUWE

    Thanks Ian,

     

    That is indeed hiow a generic calibration is done - and well done.

    Eizo Screens, however, are renowned for their rendering of AdobeRGB, and propose lots of menus.

    So many, that I lost my certainties, actually. Hence this post. For example, I see that the native White point is often at 6500, but it seems that C1P Eizo Calibration puts 5000 - or am I wrong ?

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  • Robert Farhi

    Hi Claude,

    I have a calibrated NEC display, but the process is the same.

    I use anX-rite i1 Display Pro measuring probe, and I calibrate my display using its native full colour space, which is close to Adobe RGB. I use BasICColour Display 6 as calibration software, but you can use the probe software (i1 Profiler) or any other software, including Color Navigator, I presume. My targets are : Tc 5000 K (but 5500 K suits as well), luminance depending upon your surrounding light (I use 80 cd/m2 because my 'lab' is dark), gamma 2.2 (or a L* curve suits as well). Once the targets have been selected, you let the software do its job.

    Then, to have an idea of the result you could expect from a printing process (or a social network or Internet publication), you have to select the output profile in Capture One. To do that, go the "process recipes" and create as many recipes as you need, with the relevant profiles or colour spaces. The ones I have are sRGB for Internet, forums, printing providers (such as Fuji frontier machines...), ProPhoto RGB or ProStar RGB to send the images I want to edit to softwares such as Affinity Photo or Photoshop, Adobe RGB for good printing providers, my printer colour profile for printing at home, etc... Of course, I have also a process recipe for Capture One processing, with a colour space I have chosen as large as possible.

    Then you select your recipe using : View -> Proof Profile -> Selected Recipe and you'll have a simulation of your image on your screen The colours which are out of gamut appear as blue (dark colours) or red (bright colours).

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  • bobW

    You may also want to check if your printing lab has a specific profile that you can download and use during soft-proofing as described by Robert.

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  • Claude CAUWE

    Thank you all for your replies - i am afraid they bring even more questions :-)

    @Robert:

    I assume your NEC screen has a factory white point at 6500 - so why did you chose 5000 or 5500, if I may ask?

    I understand the recipes in C1P, as well as the soft proofing, but then perhaps you might have an idea what the presets on my Eizo are: RGB, sRGB, etc .. When I Calibrate the screen, the preset is "custom". Except if I set it on a predefined preset before calibrating, then it retains the name...

    Is that another sort of soft proofing (directly on the screen), using LUT's ? Or am I totally mistaken ?

    @bobW

    I asked already, and they replied that if they get a fully compliant Adobe RGB files, they are happy. And indeed, the printed results look exactly fine (although sometimes too much magenta in my files, hence my questioning about the perfect calibration)

    I use the same computer and the same monitor as them, so I don't expect discrepancy there...

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  • SFA

    Claude,

    Is your Eizo monitor a model that can be calibrated from within C1?

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  • Claude CAUWE

    Hello SFA,

    Yes and no :-)

    The CG 277 can, but the CG2730 cannot (which is strange, because it also has an integrated sensor. Perhaps time that C1 updates their beta ?)

    I have both screen connected. If I try to run the C1 calibrator, it conflicts with ColorNavigator. If I switch off ColorNavigator, I have one screen without calibration ...

    Therefore my solution is to use ColorNavigator for both screens, but ... how ? Custom ? RGB ? What are the modes included in Eizo's screens ? Soft-proofers ? Predefined solutions that I must use as base for calibration ? etc etc ...

    Would be nice to have someone from Capture One passing by to explain step by step how to calibrate ANY monitor with their software, what values to use, and why (e. g. D65 or D50 ?)

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  • C-M-B

    Regarding the white point:

    While 6500K is often the factory setting and many camera displays have a similar white point, it's not a desirable setting when you intent to print your images. 

    It is rather "cold" and emphasizes the blue tone and I think many companies thought they wanted to make the images appear more 'modern' and 'cool' on the customers displays. And for things like web browsing or just looking at images it works more or less.

    However when it comes to printing 5000K is often a good basis for calibration, 5500K is also good.

    CaptureOne does not need its own internal calibration, it uses the system profile so as long as that's good (whether it's made via the EIZO ColorNavigator software or xRite or any other method) you're fine.

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  • Claude CAUWE

    Thank you for the additional info.

    So, if I get you right, the white point of screen has no *direct* influence on the colors of the picts ?

    It only has influence because we might "overcompensate" the editing, as we see another "rendering" ?

     

    I beg to differ, but C1 has an internal calibration, only for a chosen range of Eizo screens.

    And on those, one can chose presets (Adobe RGB, sRGB, CAL 1, CAL 2, CAL 3).
    It is not clear to me if I have to start from, e. g. Adobe RGB and calibrate from there to have an Adobe RGB again at the end, or enter myself the values (white point, gamma, luminosity), ending up creating a "custom" profile.

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  • Claude CAUWE

    This is the official Eizo video.

    It is clear - and not, at the same time :-)

    https://youtu.be/Tf1viN7Ku68 

    No mention of why we can access all the different modes from the screen itself.

    But maybe I am searching too far ?

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  • C-M-B

    The colours of the images remain untouched, this is just a matter of how they are being interpreted by your computer and displayed. This also includes the brightness and contrast by the way, it's not just the color rendition. 

    So even with a badly calibrated display you don't change the colors or the brightness of the image per se - you only change how they look on your screen and they will look different on a different screen with a different calibration. 

    However - only a good calibration will allow you to see the full "potential" of the image. If it's too bright or dark you may not see a lot a of detail and the same goes for a proper colour calibration.

    Yes, CaptureOne has its own internal calibration that you can (!) use but it's not a necessity - and if you already use the EIZO software you can't use the CaptureOne calibration (at least I don't think it works) because the two will probably conflict with each other.

    This particular "AdobeRGB" is just a preset for your monitor which should deliver a good coverage of the AdobeRGB colour space and later on you can adjust it to your own personal preference and taste (white point, gamma,...) or you can start from scratch and use CAL 1,2,3 as a starting point or - if you only work with sRGB you can use that. 

    Personally I'd just use the EIZO Software, since the Capture One calibration is still in a Beta state.

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  • C-M-B

     

    No mention of why we can access all the different modes from the screen itself.


    That is so you don't necessarily have to install the software and you can use the presets directly.

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  • Claude CAUWE

    Thank you - that was a very clear explanation.

    I will recalibrate both screen with ColorNavigator and AdobeRGB as target, and take it from there.

    Thanks again !!

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  • Claude CAUWE

    Did that.

    Both monitors are now calibrated with Adobe RGB target, 6500°K, 120 cd and gamma 2,2
    The end of the story ?

    Nope ...

    The CG277 is now showing a significantly different result - less bright with a slightly greenish tone..

    IS AdobeRGB not equal to Adobe RGB ?  

    Oh my ...

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  • C-M-B

    Are both the same type of display? 


    Try the following settings:

    80cd/m²
    5000K
    Gamma 2.20

    Gamut and Contrast: native

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  • Claude CAUWE

    Not totally, they are:

    • An Eizo CG2730 Monitor (27" with integrated sensor)
    • An Eizo CG277 Monitor (27" with integrated sensor)

    The CG2730 is the replacement of the CG277 - or so I was told by Eizo.

    Will try your settings - although slightly later in the day, as I need to have some work done. :-)

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  • Claude CAUWE

    OK, here I am back - couldn't resist :-)

    Both screen are (obviously) less bright.

    The CG277 that was displaying a greenish cast now shows a reddish cast (compared to the CG2730)

    The CG2730 appears thus slightly more green, and slightly less bright than the CG277

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  • Robert Farhi

    Hi Claude,

    The targets given by C-M-B (and by myself earlier) are the ones you should select for printing:

    80cd/m²
    5000K
    Gamma 2.20

    Gamut and Contrast: native

    1) The temperature of 5000 K is better for the rendering of printing papers, and the luminance of 80 cd/m2 is good for a dark environment. But you can choose 5500 K and 100 cd/m2 : the temperature won't have any drastic effect on your prints, unless you choose 6500 K, which is by far too cold, and, actually, all will depend upon the light under which you look at your printed pictures ! Yes, because this is the paradox : if you look at a printed photograph under daylight or in an exhibition, it will look completely different, and we could wonder why a calibration is needed.... Actually, there are some ISO norms, and my display is calibrated at 5000 K because I have a light source at 5000 K that I use as standard. But when I look at my printed pictures under daylight, it works as well because of the human capacities in translating colours (the same is true with white balance, as human eye and brain can detect a neutral or white tone at once, while a camera can't for most of the time). The most important target is the luminance. If you choose a high level luminance, your prints will look dark. The best is to select it according to the environment under which you look at your pictures.

    2) My computer is a MacBook Pro (late 2013) that I have calibrated at 6500 K and 120 cd/m2, because I use this display for social networks or Internet. Most of people own displays with these characteristics and I can see at one how my pictures will render on such screens. As I said above, I use my calibrated NEC only for printing, with 5000 K and 80 cd/m2.

    3) If your screens are correctly calibrated with the same targets, they should give the same colours.

    4) Presets exist in your display in order to simulate a colour space. But I guess there is a 'native', full colour space of your display that you should use for calibration.

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  • Claude CAUWE

    We are progressing.

    At this stage, I am back to 6500 with 100 cd, gamma 2.2 and gamut Native (don't find any contrast setting).

    This way, the images look *about* the same.

    Remarked also that the white point definition is quite different on both screens (while both are IPS):

    CG2730:

    • R: 100
    • G: 88,24
    • B: 73,33

    CG277:

    • R: 100
    • G: 85,88
    • B: 99,61

    Actually perhaps I could use your idea, and have one screen for 6500 sRGB and the other for 5000/5500 AdobeRGB ...

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  • Robert Farhi

    It is normal that the R, G, B values are not the same for both displays to comply with the target. This difference only reflects the different behaviours and, thus, response matrices in both screens.

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  • C-M-B

    Slight variations are okay but they shouldn't have noticeable casts.

    I too have the GC2730, great display. I ve used the same settings to calibrate a MacBook Pro Retina screen with an older xRite i1Display Pro - and they look almost identical.

    Are you using two different computers or are both displays plugged into the same machine?

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  • Robert Farhi

    My MacBook Pro is calibrated with 6500 K, 120 cd/m2, gamma 2.2 targets, for Internet publication only. My Nec is only devoted to printing. Both are calibrated with an i1 Display Pro using BasICColor Display 6. My NEC is connected to the mini Display Port of the MacBook Pro, which is my only computer.

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  • Claude CAUWE

    Again, first of all, thank you to all who are helping me in this matter.
    I hope, and think, that a lot of other readers will enjoy this detailed and practical information.

    @ C-M-B

    Agreed that the CG2730 is a great thing !
    Surprisingly, the lab (also on a MacPro with an Eizo CG277) seems to find consistant magenta extra touch on my picts. And sometimes, my own CG277 tends to go the same way. Good thing is: it is coherent (perhaps due to the fact that the CG277 has an "ambiant light" sensor, while the CG2730 only has a screen calibrator - and a hood, which makes a lot of difference in the perception.

    Both of my screen are attached to the same Radeon RX580 graphic card. Both in DisplayPort.

    @ Robert

    Thank you, I will try that setup here as well. It might actually be the best solution, to avoid frustrations if I cannot get the two screens to "respond" the same way.

     

    I am now set on AdobeRGB, 100 cd, gamma 2,2, white point 6500 and native gamut. Seems workable. Need to have some hi-quality print at the lab to confirm 500 and 6500 settings.

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  • C-M-B

    Is it possibel that you're using the ambient sensor while calibrating? 

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  • Claude CAUWE

    Certainly possible.

    I haven't found any option on Color Navigator to disable it.

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  • C-M-B

    Ah well I have another tip for you!

    In the ColorNavigator Settings you can go to 

    General =>Compentsation method
    and then select "Multiple Monitor matching"


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  • Robert Farhi

    I HATE ambient sensors ! They are always sources of mismatching and wrong calibration processes. The best way is to work in an as dark as possible environment. This is my experience with my NEC, but, as a matter of fact, I don't have any with Eizo screens....

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  • Claude CAUWE

    @ C-M-B:

    Yepp, apparently ColorNavigator is smart, because it selected it when I did two separate calibrations (it must recognize two screens because we have to move the calibration window in the screen to be "fixed".

    So it was already on. But thanks for spotting it !

    @ Robert

    I thought the same, for a possible mismatch. The CG2730 comes with a hood, while the CG277 does not. And the hoods are no longer in production, but those still in store cost in the 250 euros range ... glppppp

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  • jjwithers

    I might be hijacking this thread a bit but what is C1 using to display colors? 

    On the same machine, an unmodified RAW file in C1 does not look identical to a RAW file in Adobe Camera RAW. 

    How do you align your color management across both softwares? 

    I will render an Adobe RGB tiff from C1 and open it up in Photoshop (Using AdobeRGB color space) and the image will appear slightly darker.  

    Any ideas or thoughts to align this better?  

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  • Claude CAUWE

    I think that for the opening of the RAW? the dematricing engines are different.
    Therefore that many people think that C1 is better than LR, for example.

    For the TIFF, I leave more competent than me answer  :-)

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