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New License Model: Changes to the way licensing, updates, and upgrades work

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1055 comments

  • truepictures

    Thomas Pietsch

    There is a simple reason why you have not yet received an answer to this question: there is simply no reason. Or rather, from a technical point of view, there is no reason. This reasoning is meant to impress those who do not know how the technology behind it works in order to disguise the fact that there is no reason.

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  • Kurt Aulbjerg

    👍

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  • Thomas Kyhn
    Top Commenter

    While in principle nothing prevented them from releasing new features regularly with the old license model, you should think that the fact that new versions would have to have a series of new features in order for users to be willing to pay for them meant that they had to save new features for new versions rather than introduce them right away when they were ready. 

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  • Weldon Thomson

    “. . . meant that they had to save new features for new versions rather than introduce them right away when they were ready.”

    And, if everybody is on a subscription, then they can release updates and new features, or not, whenever they want - ready or not, bugs and all, whether users want them or not.

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  • Thomas Kyhn
    Top Commenter

    "And, if everybody is on a subscription …"

    I assume that's what they'd prefer.

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  • Weldon Thomson

    “I assume that's what they'd prefer.”

    Why would you assume that - especially if the license model may be eliminated (at some point,) or made more objectionable (even with some promised loyalty program) for many.

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  • ernst.w

    I have been conspicuously quiet here in this thread. But I can't leave everything as written without comment either. . Unfortunately, I am currently ill. May be that therefore some sentences may sound a little strange. Sorry.

     

    @Paul Reiffer

    Yes, we (you and I) agree that Capture One Pro produces great results when used properly. We also agree that what has been going on publicly, in plain sight, over the past few weeks in connection with Capture One's change in licensing terms is disastrous. It is also indisputable that software development costs money, which logically customers must pay. There are several ways to make spending money palatable to customers.

    But we don't agree on everything - which doesn't have to be the case. We work with different requirements in different environments.

    You are a full professional, you seem (I don't know your tax return 😉) from what I read about you, to earn well. Excellent. But that is not true for all photographers and certainly not for hobbyists. So you will have a different attitude to price and licensing than others.

    Who does Capture One want to target with the RAW converter? Only the well-paid pros on Apple equipment? Or ambitious amateurs as well? The pros will only be lured with panorama and HDR functions if they also work. Amateurs will perhaps attach more importance to the panorama feature and may not notice the (serious) errors of the HDR processing.

    However, as is a key point in the Open Letter signed by more than 500 users, the decisive factor is not more features, but the stability of the software. We pay for the software, yes. But we expect stable software in return. Not just on Mac devices, but also on Windows PCs; Capture One costs no small amount there either. Our expectations should come as no surprise. And it is precisely stability that is lacking.

    Personally, I don't care much about getting a half-baked panorama feature or an unusable HDR feature due to lack of ghosting correction. But to get an update that can no longer be used (on Windows PCs) because it simply doesn't start with various plugins anymore, I think is an imposition. That the service department, at least with Windows users, after an average time of four weeks answers with outrageous nonsense like "This problem is completely unknown to us..." puts the crown on the barrel. Especially since I have ongoing contact with other users from the German-speaking world with whom exactly this problem was discussed as "known" on the same days. Just more annoying and not at all commensurate with the upscale price of Capture One Pro. Not the service Pros would expect (and need).

    And here we come again to one of your statements: when the first V15.2 could not even be started by some users, you told us serious users would wait three months after release anyway before installing an update. Alright, you're a subscriber, you always pay immediately, you can't postpone that because a buggy update is out. You can wait without a single cent changing financially. For perpetual license owners it's a different story, so it might be waiting a few weeks after release to see what bugs are published on various channels and then deciding to purchase the update/upgrade.

    How does that fit with you now calling users of V22 generally unwilling to purchase regular updates/upgrades?

    "Many those affected are running old versions - 20, 21, 22. So the impact on them is negligible as they have made the same decision to not take future upgrades or bug fixes with every release instead to upgrade on their own timetable..."

    I have afforded EVERY upgrade so far. Just because of the thought that software companies must earn money; I used to be a programmer myself. So I am or was at least so far upgrade-willing. I was just about to upgrade to the quite stable version 23, when the communication disaster hit me. One day later, and it would have been too late for me.

    And now comes the point: I do not buy anything of which I should only learn AFTER the purchase, how the changing conditions will shape; therefore, not the discounted upgrade licenses before release. And no, that I "may" use V23 until September including feature and bug updates is too little as a statement for me. First, the statement that we - all those willing to upgrade - "would get the same performance anyway" as before is already wrong. Because the version change took place in November so far.

    The further hint that after that there will be no more update prices and that a new license will have to be purchased for every feature update, even to keep bug fixes, convinced me not to invest in Capture One for the time being. Money will cost plenty to switch to another product, and I don't like to ride dead horses.

    Yes, we don't know anything about the "yes anyway" loyalty scheme, although it has certainly been worked out for a long time. But in a few days, it should be ready. Let's wait and see. The conviction that the Middle Ages are over and that in our times loyalty cannot be demanded but should be earned persists 😉.

    "Just my two cents."

     

    P.S.: Almost forgot. You also talk about other numbers that I can't relate to, "More than 50% EXISTING subscribers" I haven't read from Capture One yet, but I also can't read every piece of information Capture One puts out. Only 150 to 200 users getting their frustration off their chest? Over 500 have signed the Open Letter that has already been linked several times. But those are all ridiculous numbers, I agree. But there's still the "silent majority"....

    The poll within your Facebook group also shows a different picture regarding the distribution of perpetual licenses to subscriptions: Now, after 322 people voting, the field is split like this: 41% use V23 Perpetual, 28% V22, V21 and V20 are almost negligible with 3% each, older versions were not selected in your poll. So, first we are talking about 75% users of a perpetual license and 25% subscribers. Of course, this doesn't have to be true for all users, but in your group, there are mainly users with real interest for the product, they have meaning for the product. They recommend (or not).

    Of those voting in your Facebook group, you could certainly see 6% as unwilling to upgrade every time, with the 28% V22 users that will only become apparent when more information is available. 41% of all Perpetuum users are loyal customers until the last upgrade. I don't find that bad. Can change abruptly or is already, if I can infer from the word messages here, in change.

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  • Thomas Kyhn
    Top Commenter

    It seems you misread my comment. 

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  • bernhard sanders

    ernst.W - thanks, very good summary.

    Only addition to: Yes, we (you and I) agree that Capture One Pro produces great results when used properly.

    I think we ALL here agree in that, otherwise we would have moved silently to an other product.

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  • Jeffrey Kogler

    Yes, I've been exploring options, but I have to admit the C1 interface is attractive ie the ability to adjust the workspace to one's individual preferences.

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  • Sascha Schlachter

    There’s a saying « Too many cooks spoil the broth ». I believe and have expressed this opinion already, that some organisation were badly served by settling remote work. Without physical interaction, employees believe that every idea is good to be thrown in, every statement has to be addressed, every decision should be taken collectively. This results in BS as we can witness with those unfinished, unpolished initiative. Decisions need to be thought through. Agile is not always your friend!
    C1 is a fantastic lab for people with a technical approach of image editing; certainly not suited for everyone. That’s the reason I like it. We here are a minority and won’t influence much. That’s sad, but that’s how things go. Democracy only goes so far as people at the helm decide, even if they’re wrong. And then, what’s wrong? Was Lacostet die Welt, Geld spielt keine Rolex.

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  • Sascha Schlachter

    @bernhard: I’m not sure you understood what I wrote, neither did I question the tool.

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  • bernhard sanders

    Sascha - sorry, i think i have missunderstood you

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  • Sascha Schlachter

    Don’t mention, no problem at all!

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  • Jason Patel

    So very none committal language, for me that ample time should really be 1 month.  Though minimum ample would be 2 weeks ie Jan 18th latest.  Anything less and that's just disrespectful to existing customers and pretty much breaking their own commitment.  The Corp team will be back from holiday and it should all be ready to go live not sure why we need to wait.

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  • Bill

    Interestingly there was a Zoom presentation by two Capture One staff last Thursday with Roberts Camera in the US.

    At the opening and end the US Channel Acct Manager mentioned a promo price of USD $179 for a perpetual license with a large amount of emphasis on the perpetual part. No mention at all of the subscription plan.

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  • BeO
    Top Commenter

    I'm currently SOOO annoyed by the quality of C1, it seems that with every release they break existing functionality.

    I updated to the latest version 22 Windows build (15.4 from 15.2) before Christmas because it had better results in one or the other panorama stitch.

    But I discovered two regression defects which are very annoying to me:

    1. Session .cos files get an updated "date modified" ONLY because you look at them in the C1 browser. 
    When you restart C1 again and visit a folder again, the files will again be updated although nothing has changed. No backup tool can work with this sh++tty behavoir. It worked in 15.1 (just tried again) and 15.2 I think it worked too.

    2. When I searched an image in the browser by typing a string in the search box, the list of images were filtered, I could then select an image and remove the search string, the list of images became unfiltered but the selected image stayed in position.

    In the new version 15.4 the selected imaged does NOT stay in posiition, instead the browser view jumps back again to the previous list item (image) just before the search action took place, as if I would never have jumped to and selected my image in question, effectively removing the only jump-to functionality from the browser.

    These regression bugs are resident in 15.4. (the latest v22 build), introduced in 15.3 or 15.4, they will never be fixed in any 15.x build because v23 is out.  wtf...

     

     

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  • BeO
    Top Commenter

    yes.

    I cannot download 15.2. or any other of the v22 builds which are not the latest. WTF...!!!!!

    EDIT: I remember it was possible in the past to download each and every old build. Prices are going up, conditions, quality and service is going down. 

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  • BeO
    Top Commenter

    Thank you Christoper. You've got mail.

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  • J M Smith

    Grrrr, I had the MacOS version all the way back to 12.x and finally deleted them...

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  • BeO
    Top Commenter

    I will submit a request to give us again a download page for all builds of all versions.

     

    Christopher, my email to you returned undeliverable. I recognize this is going off topic too much now, if you don't mind we could continue here

    https://support.captureone.com/hc/en-us/community/posts/8794466993437-Session-wrongly-changes-cos-files-modified-date-although-nothing-has-changed

     

     

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  • Mariusz Janosz

    Any update about new loyalty policy?

    Do you plan some promo until 1st of February for people who consider to buy Capture One 23 perpetual licence?

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  • Lost Carrier

    ;-)

    They‘ll probably gonna need lots of promos afterwards…

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  • Christian VIEL

    So it's the middle of January.

    When might the details of the "loyalty program" be announced?

    February 1 is a mere 14 days away.

    "We will make sure to inform you about the loyalty program ahead of February 1st, 2023, in order to give you ample time to make the decision that suits you best."....

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  • Randy Becker

    If memory serves, wasn't there a committment from C1 to explain everything, or at least respond in some meaningful way, 2 weeks prior the the implementation of this new plan?

    If I'm correct, today is the day we've been promised an explanation which would mean this is their opportunity to begin rebuild relationships, or at the very least, tell us what's what ...

    I'm not holding my breath conidering at the time of me writing this message, it is 16:40 Copenhagen time and the silence is deafening.

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  • Jason Patel

    The self defined deadline by C1 is the 18th Jan. Should be 1st thing really in their office hours as gives them time to react.

    “We will release information about our loyalty program before February 1st, 2023. We have heard you and will release information about the new loyalty program two weeks before February 1st, 2023, so you can have enough time to make an informed decision.”

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  • Weldon Thomson

    The real problem for many of us, who made our decisions and (at least somewhat) committed to capture one by buying 22 during the Black Friday sale and/or 23 during the presale, is that we were not (I think intentionally) given the information (I believe they then had) in sufficient time to make a truly “informed” decision. I also believe that the reason they are holding off any further information (until probably the last day per what they have told us) is to limit their losses due to refunds/chargebacks from unhappy customers who bought at that time.

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  • FirstName LastName

    If that’s the case, it’s a magnificent blessing in disguise. If they deliver unpalatable news, and they have shown themselves to deliver bad news in ways that screw over the end-user, then that makes the decision on who to place our faith and money in very easy. 
    Voting with our wallets is the -only- thing the lawyers and suits will comprehend. They don’t run a company by feelings and good will, they run a company by profits. And if this announcement hits their profits, then they’ll change. If it doesn’t damage their bottom line, they will lose literally zero sleep over all the people they just rolled over. 

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  • Henk de Haan

    Weldon Thomson, I don't see your problem: you will get what you've paid for, when buying CO 23, i.e. all the (feature) updates until September 30th, 2023.

    The only question is: how does Capture One intend to implement a warranty schema as required by EU law. Will they provide two year of free bug-fix releases for every perpetual license holder or handle it on an ad-hoc basis?   

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  • Alessio Furlan

    Henk de Haan

    I don't see your problem: you will get what you've paid for, when buying CO 23, i.e. all the (feature) updates until September 30th, 2023.

    It is not properly correct as you say.

    The software is sold indicating that updates will be included until the new version is released. Does not specify until 30 September.

    👉 Unless they have changed the conditions in recent weeks.

    I got the refund (from the sales gateway) of the license paid for Capture One Pro 23 by appealing to this point.

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