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Things I would buy a new version of Capture One for...

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11 comments

  • BeO
    Top Commenter

    Hi John,

    I see at least 5 individual feature requests.

    If you seriously want to request features, the correct place is here

    https://support.captureone.com/hc/en-us/community/topics/6431248131613-Improve-Capture-One-Pro?sort_by=votes

    The smaller the bits requested the higher the likelyhood for implementation, I guess. Mind the right formatting as described here

    https://support.captureone.com/hc/en-us/community/posts/8745099907997-How-to-make-a-feature-request-or-provide-feedback

    Regards
    BeO

     

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  • John Friend
    Top Commenter

    BeO

    I see no point to actual individual feature requests posted here from individuals.  I've made a few in the past (some related to these) and it seems like they just go into a black hole.  There's no evidence that one individual posting anything here (even if it gets a few upvotes) means anything for feature decisions.  It's feels like several users talking to a black hole.

    If there was ever an active conversation with real product managers (people who make feature decisions on the product) or engineers (people who implement features) from Capture One here, then I'd engage, but without any of that, I see no real point. 

    Mostly I'm just venting my frustration and trying to be a voice for the non-pros who want core editing improvements, not culling, not matching, not tethering, etc...  Lately, it seems like C1 has given up on core editing improvements and is just catering to a small subset of working pros.  That's not me and thus I'm not buying new versions of C1 now (and I'm stuck living with lots of problems that aren't even fixed in the current version).  The point of this post was to try to draw some attention to a portion of their customer base that they aren't offering anything new to and if they want our money for upgrades or want us to keep using Capture One, they can't keep ignoring us.  No individual feature request would make that point.

    As you probably already know from my other posts, I like the C1 editing engine and the ability to have a perpetual license, but all the other things it's missing are seriously making me consider leaving C1 entirely and ponying up for a Lightroom subscription.  My patience is wearing thin.  There are now rumors of AI masks coming sometime, but we have no idea when they will be here or how useful they will be.  But there are rumors that mask features like add, intersect and subtract and not even planned which seems more and more to me like table stakes to compete.

    And, because of the stupid way they do perpetual licenses, I have to wait for ALL the bugs to get fixed in new features before buying a new perpetual license because they have no promise of ever fixing bugs in a perpetual license version after you buy.

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  • BeO
    Top Commenter

    Yes, John Friend, I understand your frustration and mostly agree with what you've said. If you remember, I'm in the same boat actually. Not sure though if your post will change anything or also get sucked up by the same black hole.

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  • Christopher Dubea

    Here's mine

    Fix the admittedly broken catalog system.

    That way I wouldn't have to keep LR 6.14 around to use as a catalog.

    Yes I've submitted support request (s). The responses were, to be kind, amusing.

    Seriously

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  • John Friend
    Top Commenter

    Christopher Dubea

    Fix the admittedly broken catalog system.

    What specific items do you want/need fixed in the C1 catalog?

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  • Christopher Dubea

    Ability to catalog more than a trivial number of files without getting unstable, filters not working, taking literally days to read/write metadata.

    I want the features that are in the cataloging system to work irregardless of the number of images in the catalog.

    Provide the product that I paid for, more than once.....

    I stopped using catalogs 2 years ago after getting to the point of daily crashes.

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  • John Friend
    Top Commenter

    Christopher Dubea

    At what catalog size (number of images) are you having problems?  At what catalog size do you expect it to work well? 

    Also, since it's probably related, what level of system (CPU, disk containing the catalog, amount of memory) are you running?

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  • IanS

    Yes, John, the new license model means that the optimum time to upgrade to V24 will be just before V25 is released. This is implicit in the new license deal and obviously an intended consequence.

    Again the CEO stated on YouTube that C1 is not attempting to compete with all the software options out there but to fill a niche in the workflow of professional photographers, so for example you are never going to get competitive noise reduction as 80% of their customer base use full frame or larger sensors so noise is not a big problem and can be fixed with strobes etc.

    One flaw I see with this marketing approach is that new photographers are never going to experience C1 and will grow up in an Adobe world. Expecting them to change to C1 when they become "Pros" may not be as guaranteed as C1 imagine.

    That's where we are, C1 will not be changing approach, and we either purchase C1 or not.

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  • John Friend
    Top Commenter

    IanS

    Yes, John, the new license model means that the optimum time to upgrade to V24 will be just before V25 is released. This is implicit in the new license deal and obviously an intended consequence.

    I'd probably disagree.  The best time to buy V24 is whenever you think the major elements in it are pretty stable which is probably some point release after it originally ships (perhaps a couple months) which would be substantially before you recommended.  Plus, there may be destabilizing releases that add new features (for subscription users) during the year now so you don't want to run into bugs from those either.

    Again the CEO stated on YouTube that C1 is not attempting to compete with all the software options out there but to fill a niche in the workflow of professional photographers, so for example you are never going to get competitive noise reduction as 80% of their customer base use full frame or larger sensors so noise is not a big problem and can be fixed with strobes etc.

    It's appropriate for the #2 or #3 player in the market to attempt to carve out their own niche rather than compete directly with #1 in all directions.  But, if you pick a niche that is too small, then you really limit your market and success possibilities and it does seem like they are not keeping up in core image editing which seems very dangerous.

    As for noise reduction, there are plenty of working pros shooting full frame that want/need good noise reduction.  Just look at any sports photographer who shoots in lower light.  Or any wildlife photographer shooting early morning or late evening.  Sure, the studio photographer that uses tethering isn't probably complaining about noise reduction, but I hope C1 is casting a net a little broader than just the studio photographer.

    That's where we are, C1 will not be changing approach, and we either purchase C1 or not.

    Yep.  I know I can choose whether to buy it or not.  That doesn't mean it hurts anything to tell the company what it would take for me to buy.  I haven't really seen any evidence that the people who make product decisions at Capture One ever actually read anything here so perhaps I'm just posting into empty space.  But, it doesn't cost me anything to ask for what I want, so might as well.

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  • IanS

    Hi John, you raise several good points and they make determining when, or if, to upgrade very difficult. I will have to have a think about what to do going forward. I am not going to subscribe so...

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  • Christopher Dubea

    To John,

    I'm not smart enough to figure out how to quote messages in this forum.

    Firstly, and probably most important, I'm a Windows users.  I know the red-headed step child...

    I've got a high performance workstation with a SSD main drive and all my images are stored on a Synology NAS box.

    About 2 1/2 years ago I was a dedicated catalog user.

    I'll be honest, until that point I had never really done any post=processing of my image catalog, which was about 60k at that time.

    With the pandemic, I had time on my hands and decided it was time to go through the images.

    I had been watching David's tutorials, and I jumped in.

    All went well until the image count got above about 40k. Then weird things started happening.

    Random crashes, which would take out all the work I had done in that session as typically the catalog was corrupted. This was something that when it started was infrequent, and as the image count rose, became more and more commonplace. It got to the point where it was happening daily.

    Functions would cease to work. Filters were interesting.  If I selected a single folder of images, filters worked just fine.  Selecting more than one folder, particularly if there were a large number of images, the filter panel just refused to open.

    And the creme de la creme was XMP handling.

    Oi. I keep a version of LightRoom v6.14 to use for image ingesting and renaming.  Old habits die hard. This old (ancient in computer terms) version handles my entire catalog with ease. I've got XMP sync turned on and LR opens my catalog in 30 seconds or so.

    If I turn on XMP sync in Capture One, oh my, we're talking hours while it reads all the files. Hours. Last time at the 8 hour mark, I killed the session. Useless.

    Yes, I've filled support requests.

    The responses were, to be kind, amusing.

    The first one suggested that I upgrade versions as "many things had been fixed in the new version". Notice that they specifically didn't say whether this issue was rectified.  This upgrade would have been a paid one had I fallen for the pitch. 

    I started Capture One on v12. 

    When V21 was introduced a lot of verbiage was thrown out about how much faster cataloging was. Hooray! they fixed it I thought. So I ponied up for an upgrade with and included upgrade to the next version.

    Imagine my surprise, when after the newness wore off, that virtually nothing had changed in V21.

    And v22 after it.

    I filed another support request. This was when the Ukrainian situation was first unfolding.

    Some 2-3 months after I filed my support request, I got this e-mail blaming their support, or lack  thereof on the situation in the Ukraine. 

    Some 6 months later, I got an e-mail suggesting (without confirmation of the results) that putting all my images on a fast SSD in my computer would help the situation.

    I responded that this was absurd. My ancient version of LR dealt with the image catalog nicely, why was C1 a problem.

    It was only then that it was confirmed that C1 knew about the issue. How could they not, this image capacity problem has been with the cataloging system since the iView days?

    There was no indication that the issue is, or would be resolved.  I suspect this would be a major code refactorization. C1 is not a large company and I genuinely don't think they have the resources or interest to fix it.  Microsoft certainly wasn't interested.

    For fun, I copied the catalog files for LR and C1 and renamed them as db files.  I opened them with SQLite Database Browser.

    The  LR database opened fairly quickly and showed a small number of tables, but one large one holding the lions share of the data.

    The C1 database took considerably longer to open, and it showed there were a plethora of small tables, many more than LR, linked to a main table.

    I know less than nothing about database design, but just his issue tells me that whoever crafted this database layout didn't either.

    Fixing the Catalog is not a new "feature".  I doubt C1 is ever going to spend the resources to fix it as they couldn't spin it off as a new version and charge for it.

    I hope that I'm wrong.  If this was fixed, and confirmed, I'd be the first person in line to buy a new version, I don't like having to use LR (and now digiKam) for my DAM duties.

    Sorry to be so long winded. 

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