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What a ripoff

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33 comments

  • Ian Wilson
    Moderator
    Top Commenter

    If you are on a currently valid subscription, you should be OK for the new version. Are you sure you don't have an option to either try the trial or enter your subscription information? I downloaded it today, and that was what I was offered. How about sharing a screenshot to show what you are seeing?

    Ian

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  • Drugstore

    I pre ordered CO 23 on Oct. 18th 2022 which immediatly cancelled my valid license key and set the new one active without having a new release. And now I have a license that was only valid for some days more than 10 month! That means I'm now punished by CO being a loyal user ordering the update early.  So I think I should get updates for at least a year!

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  • A. Schmidt

    I can only agree with that. I am very disappointed! With change in licensing policy, I expected at least updates until the next version jump, especially since I still purchased the license under these conditions.
    In addition, Capture One has for many years convinced Lightroom users to switch by criticizing the subscription model of Adobe. Now Capture One users are also being pushed to subscribe.

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  • Brian Jordan
    Moderator

    Drugstore I'm really confused.  You bought a perpetual license and you (should) have a perpetual license.  The software you purchased will work for as long as it's supported on whatever operating system you install it on.  Nothing 'went away' or stopped working.  Capture One provided updates to the point release and those were available for you to install.  If I buy my Mazda in May and the new models drop in June and those new models have a more advanced cruise control, I don't expect to go down to the Mazda dealership and get some kind of update.  I do, and rightly so, expect them to fix anything that might be broken on the Mazda I bought.  If I want the latest and greatest always, I either buy a new one every time a new model drops or I lease (for a year).  Why would I expect different from software?

     

    EDIT: Personal opinion.  I am not affiliated with Capture One.  My mod title means nothing more than that I get to police spam posts. I volunteered for this position because I got tired of spam links in AI generated posts polluting the boards.  Capture One pays me nothing nor do I have an 'inside track' or 'back channel'.

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  • Denis Huk
    Admin

    hey Mark Stowe, i'm moving this post to another topic as this has nothing to do with the community.
    as for the issue you are facing, consider contacting support by clicking Request Support in the header.

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  • BeO
    Top Commenter

    Hi Denis Huk

    I can imagine that working in an environment with only happy customers is more fun than with a bunch of customers who are expressing their dissatisfaction.
    It deserves a mention and explicite appreciation that you, and Jack-W, are acting calm, friendly and professionally here in the forum. Give credit where credit is due.

    The dissatisfaction I have and sometimes express in the forum (and probably this is true for most if not all users) is mostly originating and certainly pointing to the upper management and company stakeholder decisions, it is not with the staff of C1. You contribute to the positive aspects of being a C1 customer.

    ___ 

    paragraph2:

    But there is something I noticed which I want to bring to the table too:

    Critical threads like

    https://support.captureone.com/hc/en-us/community/posts/14412283650973-Loyalty-Program-Not-So-Much

    should not be completely removed imo, even if is overwhelmingly negative (and I am 'guilty' by contibruting with a sarcastic post to it (after that I stopped reading so maybe don't have the full picture), if the posters are telling the truth and are not really violating the forum rules 1 to 4.5.

    Let us give criticiscm where criticiscm is due, in terms of

    "If you have a grievance, then let us know about it – this is a place where people can freely speak their mind. "  (from the forum rules)

    ___

    My first paragraph stands on its own though.

    Regards,
    BeO 

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  • Denis Huk
    Admin

    hey BeO, thanks for the feedback!

    i simply moved this post to another topic as the community feedback one is for posts related to forum or help center feedback.

    on the other hand i can see we could probably create a dedicated topic for payments/account discussions as moving it to Capture One Pro 16.X doesn't make a lot of sense

    thanks again!

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  • Jack W
    Admin

    Thanks for the acknowledgment and positive words BeO :) as Denis points out, we will make a topic on the forum which is related to account/licensing matters, where business decisions can be discussed.

    As you can imagine, it's probably not something we will be able to comment on much, but there should at least be an avenue for feedback related to non-technical matters.

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  • Drugstore

    Hi Brian Jordan, I will not buy a new Mazda (not at all ;-) but when I buy one with one year of free service and I decided to make a new service contract for the next year before the year is over I never will be cut off of the service because I decided one month before first service ends.

    Anyway, this is software. I'm a loyal user since 2018 and upgraded every year because their have been fair update prices. But now they gave a sh$t on loyal users and they try to treat you into their (expensive) subscription model. I remember when CO heavily critized the Adobe subscription model earlier.

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  • Michael Richter

    Brian Jordan
    When you buy a car, you usually know months in advance when new models are planned. With C1, on the other hand, you are left completely in the dark. ;-)

     

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  • Jack W
    Admin

    Drugstore You do get service releases, though. For example, we're in the process of making a service release for 16.2 and even made the decision to include the latest camera releases in the latest service releases for 16.2 instead of putting them all in 16.3 (which would have meant that 16.2 perpetual license holders would have had to purchase a new license for new camera support, which we wanted to avoid) 

    If you're a loyal user, then that's exactly what our Loyalty Program was designed for. We're proud to still offer perpetual licenses and will continue to do so, whilst ensuring that longtime customers pay as little as possible.

     

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  • Jerry C

    Jack, I am happy with my perpetual license for 16.2 and appreciate that Capture One will continue service releases for that version. I greatly appreciate Capture One continuing service releases for 16.2. 

    Users need to know that even though they must pay for new point releases that may come more than once a year, they will be able to get free service releases for their existing versions for a defined period of time, much as would be the case of a vehicle warranty (no new features, but correction of engineering errors).

    Apple's model suggests a reasonable policy. Apple issues service releases for the past couple of OS versions as needed to fix bugs and security issues, so you know how long it will release service releases. It is basically a 3 year warranty. With Capture One, the exact policy for maintaining service releases could be clearer. How long will service releases continue for bugs and cameras? Capture One perviously said those for bugs will continue until the next point version is issued, but that could be less than one year. Your message of today indicates bug releases will continue into the next point version (from 16.2 after the issue of 16.3). This is encouraging. Can we rely on this to continue? How long can we expect releases to correct bugs to be issued? Would this be until version 17 or 16.4 or what?

    If Capture One values customers who prefer perpetual licenses, giving a maintenance program along the lines of the Apple model is good business. If Capture One's long term plan is to phase out perpetual licenses, reducing the period for maintenance releases would be a good way to do this. 

     

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  • Brian Jordan
    Moderator

    @...

    Frankly life would be a lot simpler for everyone if buying a new perpetual license just entitled you to upgraded releases for X amount of time, regardless of what exact version you bought and when in your product cycle you bought it.  so, under that system, if you bought 16.2 two weeks ago, you would be entitled to 16.3 even though it contains new features because it was released shortly after you purchased.

    Just playing devil's advocate: Under your model you buy a license on 1/1/23.  You'll receive updates for a year.  Right up til 11:59 pm on 12/31/23.  That's a really super generous window, right.  Much longer than just 4-5 months!

    The company pushes on update on 12/15/23.  You install and find a bug.  Something significant to you is broken.  Capture One pushes a fix on 1/15/24.  You don't get that fix because you're outside your 12-month window.  Now you're ticked because your thing is broken and you want - you NEED - it fixed but the only way you can get a fix is to buy more.  I'm thinking you are most upset.

    OR they push the last version on 1/3/24 and you're thinking, "Those greedy suckers.  They could have pushed that 3 days ago and I'd have gotten it!!"  Never mind that same bug would have been in there and you'd have been bitten.  Still, I'm thinking you are most upset.

    What I'm trying to say, at least from my perspective, is that no licensing model is the right model.  Some hurt more here and some hurt more there.  Most software companies have just said the heck with the whole thing and gone subscription.  Why?  Well, sure there is money there.  Dependable, repetitive money.  But also because all these thorny issues go away.  Everybody gets the same latest and greatest (bugs, fixes, whatever).  The support desk only supports a single version.  The developers only work on a single code base.  At least Capture One is still giving us an option.

     

    Obligatory:  I'm a mod.  No other affiliation with the company.  This video is not sponsored.

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  • Brian Jordan
    Moderator

    BeO

    My issue with that whole thread was the huge image right at the top.  That was from one of those crap coupon sites.  I checked the site and not one single code they gave me worked.  All bogus.  Just clickbait to get eyes on their site.  Did you notice the original poster never got back to me when I asked him for a specific working code?

    I'm all for discussing honest grievance.  I don't think Capture One is perfect.  But I also don't think it's fair to hit them with bogus arguments.  We have real things we need to talk with them about.  Bugs that we want addressed.  Features we'd like added.  Even pricing discussions.  But not banner ads based on crap.

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  • BeO
    Top Commenter

    Hi Brian Jordan,

    You described with a lot of words something we all know, a limited bug fix period is, well, limited.

    Approx. 4 month, if you buy the first release right away, is too short, imo, even for a low bug application.

    One year from purchase date would be great, from a customer perspective.

    A flexible policy e.g. you buy a license for a version (=feature set) and get all service releases with bug fixes and improvements for the new features of this version, plus all fixes for regression defects (for existing features) newly introduced by this version or by a following service release, would be the most fair policy. 

    Simply put, you would pay for a feature set without bugs, including improvements and no regression. 

    It might take a while until you are there if you are an early adopter and less time if you are late, but there is no scenario where can feel ripped off.

    Example: You paid for the "layers" feature in C1, you get "duplicate layer"(from 16.3) for free. But AI masking is a new feature. 
    Subject to product management decision for edge cases like this, where code can get a bit complex if features are not easily separated in source code. (With this example I am my own devils advocate already). 

    That would need an   in-code license check on feature level,   not impossible and actually very often practised in other software (even in C1 with brand-specific versions or the Express version which doesn't have layers (I think) nor sessions).

    But you have only one code branch.

    EDIT:

    • in-code license check on feature level - get the latest build incl.  all fixes for these feature for free, but no new features.
    • New cameras could be controlled via license date (no new cameras) . Or sold separately.
    • Operating system compatibility would be no problem - since it is one code base. You pay for the feature that C1 runs on your computer,  and get an update with no additional other features you did not pay for, if OS updates requires it. A real 'perpetual' license. Almost unique selling point.
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  • BeO
    Top Commenter

    Hi Brian Jordan,

    yes, coupon code websites are often scam or phishing or alike.

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  • Jerry C

    Regarding bug fixes, the only reasonable way to approach this is like anything with a warranty. It is for a defined period of time unrelated to what the maker comes out with thereafter. Virtually all software makers release apps knowing it is impossible to trap and fix all bugs. To do otherwise would be expensive, slow development, and require testing on who knows how many hardware configurations.

    It is hard not to wonder if limiting bug fixes for perpetual license users, but not for subscription users is intended to promote subscriptions. Renting the software is a way to stay in business as the product matures and a company believes the rate of possible improvements, hence sales, will slow. 

    If Capture One is serious about valuing users with perpetual licenses, perhaps putting a one year warranty on the purchase followed by a purchased extended warranty sufficient to stabilize revenue would provide users with a genuine choice.

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  • Brian Jordan
    Moderator

    @...

    It's bizarre how the company has gone from what felt like a very customer-centric company just two years ago that offered decent priced software with clear support and upgrade policies to the complete opposite and now it just feels like they're constantly trying to extract more money from us all while offering less value, less support, fewer upgrades and substantially higher prices.

    This narrative really needs to die.  Capture One has offered an annual sale price at Adorama/B&H for $180'ish for as long as I can remember.  Unless something changes in the future, that's still the case. Beyond the sale price, has the standard perpetual changed?  I don't really know because I've always leveraged that sale price.  But But.... they've added mobile tech and that costs additional.  Why wouldn't it??  BUT WE DON'T WANT THAT!!!! Maybe you don't but most people seem to.  Adobe surely thinks so.  They're actively migrating their entire LR ecosystem to mobile.   

    It's hard from the outside to say for sure, but it smells like the transition from a founder-run, customer-centric company to a company being run by the LBO finance people.  Let's try to extract maximum $$ from every customer, no matter how customers feel like they're being treated, no matter what customers feel like is fair.

    This is also really, really uncalled for.  You have no idea what's going on in Capture One. Are they the Great Evil One?  Maybe....?  Do they want to make a profit?  I sure do.  Guessing they do, too.  The reality is we all have to either grow or die.  Without the marriage to Phase One they really do have to be a standalone company that lives and dies by the product offering. IMO, criticism is fine but acting like Elon Musk or Jeff Bezos is suddenly running the place is a bit disingenuous and likely harmful to any relationship between the community here and Capture One.  Can't we just have a conversation about opportunities and concerns without name-calling and slander?

     

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  • BeO
    Top Commenter

    John Friend

    Imagine customer A calls into support and says my Capture One install isn't showing feature X and I just installed the latest version.  Support would have to have a new system that likely doesn't exist today that would be able to look up their license key and show exactly what features should or shouldn't be enabled in that license key.

    This information must be in the code (that's the idea). So it is easy to put it into the application log file which they anyway request when you report a bug.

    And, if we're being realistic here, they really want customers to move to subscription and none of this work encourages that.

    Why do people subscribe? You mean if bug fixes and long-term operating system compatibility would be provided then no one would subscibe? I doubt that this is the main driver for subscriptions.

    this is a not a trivial amount of work for the development team to implement, to test and to support even if all in one code base.  If Capture One gets three to four feature updates a year (which I think is kind of what they're shooting for), just think about all the combinatorials for what could be activated for any given user. 

    I am very familiar with software which has dozens of configuration parameters which influence how the software behaves, and that is the exact same thing as having a license which controls which behavior a software has, and believe it or not, software companies do this all the time (both, configuration specific as well as license specific behavior), it is not as critical as you think. And here, I am talking about switching on/off real features, which in my definition are well separated from other features, and not small deviations or micro-improvements). 

    Then, if you're just hiding things in the UI (the code is still there for all the new features you aren't entitled to), you have to worry a little bit about hackers making it easy for people to "mod" and get those new features.

    If paranoija and Angst determines your business and license policy then there is something wrong.

    And ... I'm not even sure what you do with the documentation?

    Same situation as today. If I have C1 v21 and look at the online documentation of 16.3 it does not matter if I still get bug fixes for v21 features or not.

    And, when UI gets reorganized to accommodate changes in a new feature (like happened in the Layers panel with AI Masking), what do the older licenses that aren't entitled to AI Masking see in the Layers panel.  Does the code base have to still contain the older Layers panel?

    Definitely not. But the AI masking buttons can be disabled or made invisible, maybe give some space back if the UI components allow it. The redesign of the 16.3 layers would work even without the AI masking features, it needs to, because there are users who use layers in 16.3+ but never use AI masking. Just disable the respective buttons and do what else is needed.

    And, then what happens when a new feature subsumes an older feature by changing it significantly and combining it with new functionality?  How do you surface the older way of doing things in one codebase?  That gets messy really quickly.

    That's a point where product management and develpment have to decide what to do. It is not set in stone that new functionality will never ever be given to old version customers. It might be wise in some of such cases to let old version customers participate of such an improvement to keep code clean, and have a great marketing message to spread.

    I would love this as a customer.  I could buy what I want and get updates for longer to what I bought.

    So why are you trying to list only contra arguments, just as one who hates this idea would?

    Edited.

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  • Brian Jordan
    Moderator

    BeO

    yes, coupon code websites are often scam or phishing or alike.

    And yet you took the opportunity to jump right on that bandwagon?

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  • BeO
    Top Commenter

    Brian Jordan

    And yet you took the opportunity to jump right on that bandwagon?

    What do you mean by that.

    EDIT: Maybe you have noticed that I am not a native speaker but I well understand your sentence, just not what you are referring to.

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  • Brian Jordan
    Moderator

    We were talking about that post not being factual and I was just continuing the conversation.  Hadn't noticed you're not a native English speaker.  Cool beans.  

    Edit: I wish we had threaded conversations.  Would make all this much easier.

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  • BeO
    Top Commenter

    Thanks, but I do :-)

    I'm not sure whose post or which facts or alternative facts you mean, the screenshot is no longer there, and I lost oversight. But I say good-night for today...

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  • Jerry C

    Brian has a point, "The reality is we all have to either grow or die." There is a limit for growth as a product matures. Once you clean up the code, convert to a robust database, and provide the basic bells and whistles, there isn't as much left to tantalize the user with. I suspect the question of how new features will improve the users' bottom line also plays a big role.The rate of software innovation is the opposite of Moore's Law. With all this uncertainty, the business model and value proposition are hard to predict. No wonder software companies want to find a way to profit from software by renting it as potential for innovation decreases. I can't fault Capture One for doing this, but to me it looks like they are concerned about further innovation being slow, incremental, and limited, and are finding safety in the rental model, just like so many others. This is an imperfect analogy, but renting software looks to software companies like renting an apartment. You can make a profit without doing anything other than maintaining it. Selling it cuts off your revenue stream, but if you do sell it, you are obligated to fix the defects found within a certain period of time.  

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  • Brian Jordan
    Moderator

    Look, I'd love for what you describe to happen and for Capture One to be free too and for it to have 30 more features than it does (like actually support videos in the catalog), but none of that is going to happen just because I want it to happen.  I'm just being realistic here about what is or isn't likely to happen.  I'm not arguing that I don't want it.  I'm explaining why I don't think Capture One would actually do it that way - it's just far too complex to implement, test and support.

    This^^^^^.  The level of code complexity being tossed around here is mind boggling.  Can it be done?  Sure.  Will it happen for less than many thousands of dollars per seat license fee plus an annual support fee?  Not anytime before the heat death of the universe.  The gulf here between can it be done and can it be done at a salable consumer price point is so immense as to be unimaginable.  If a product manager walked into a product meeting and said, "so guys, this is what we're gonna do ##and## were going to sell it for a couple hundred dollars non-recurring revenue" the people in the room would still be laughing and that product manager would be limo'ed to their next gig at the Comedy Warehouse.

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  • Brian Jordan
    Moderator

    Y’all, this conversation has reached the point of diminishing returns for me. Obviously some here know more about software development than I.

    Enjoy your day. I’m done.

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  • BeO
    Top Commenter

    @...

     I'm explaining some of those complexities to you and others

    Well, you were raising massive concers. I was trying to put it into (granted my) perspective.

    The gulf here between can it be done and can it be done at a salable consumer price point is so immense as to be unimaginable.

    "so immense as to be unimaginable". Seriously? Is it more complex to implement license-dependent feature activation than not to do it? Yes. You think I am "far oversimplifying", but actually you are far exaggarating. I think we only can agree to disagree here.

    In terms of salable price point, that not only depends on the absolute cost (and here our opinion differs already) but also on the difference of the relative cost/revenue ratio for such additional cost, which none of us knows unless you have insight in how profitable they are today.

    Do I think Capture One would ever do anything like it? No.

    Something I partially agree with you, currently no, but I'd not say 'never'.

    Look, I'd love for what you describe to happen and for Capture One to be free too and for it to have 30 more features than it does (like actually support videos in the catalog), but none of that is going to happen just because I want it to happen.

    You put my suggestion into the same ballpark as a totally unrealistic scenario that a perfect and far more feature rich application than can be achieved within a couple of years would be offered to you for free, by a commercial company. In short, exaggating. That aims at backing your arguments how absurde my suggestion is in your opinion, but if you really think it is, out of personal experience, then I think you have made experiences with applications with really bad code, or back-pushing developers, or pushy product managers who lost connection to realism. This might, or might not, explain our different views on it.

    Historically grown code can easly get messy, and C1 is some 20+ years old, so maybe you are right for this specific software, but then I deem it anyway at the end of its life cycle (unless they refactor major parts) and I hope for this reason alone that you are wrong. 

    Companies need to manage customers expectations to have satisfied customers, and we (customers) need to tell our vendors what our wishes and expecations are. Let the naysayers be on the other side.

    Anyway, conversations with you are stimulating, but I think we both know we cannot convince each other on this topic. Which is ok.

    Cheers,
    BeO

     

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  • BeO
    Top Commenter

    So, 2.5 beers in a bar for an hour of socialising or Capture One for a month. Which is the best investment?

    That depends. If you can sell your images to a client, the subscription. If you can go home with a girl after one hour of socialising, the beer. :-))

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  • Jerry C

    John Friend wrote: I sure hope Capture One doesn't think this way because from where I'm looking at, we're at a huge inflection point where there's now tons and tons of new things developers can do to make editing photos easier, faster, simpler and more capable.  The new AI masking is just the tip of the iceberg here.  

    I hope I'm wrong too, but my point was that while computer RAM and CPU speed continue to advance exponentially (though this, too, will slow down until quantum computing becomes practical and affordable), software innovation does not. Capture One could clean up some of its inefficiencies, but that is not innovation. I imagine Capture One hopes the rental (subscription) model will protect it from slowdowns in innovation. If they truly believed innovation breakthroughs AI would bring will make people want to purchase a perpetual license every year, why would they bother with the subscription model? 

    My thesis is that when a software company (Microsoft, Adobe, Capture One) curtails selling and starts renting, it may not be confident about its ability to support itself with innovation, alone.

    Stay tuned and be careful what you wish for. Maybe AI will let you plug in your camera and Capture One will compose your images into great art without needing any vision or skill.  Professional photographers may not be needed, just a few folks with iPhones.

     

     

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