Skip to main content

⚠️ Please note that this topic or post has been archived. The information contained here may no longer be accurate or up-to-date. ⚠️

Capture One Express is coming to an end

Comments

261 comments

  • Brian Jordan
    Moderator

    @... You and me arguing over whether the free COExpress applications were profitable for the company is pointless, yet here we are.

    0
  • Barry Justice

    @... Not pointless.  It shows that software will still keep working perfectly well for a long time after the company stops supporting it.  If C-1 let the Express version die a natural death it could work for a fairly long time and if the customer had been treated right they would be more inclined to update to the full version when it does finally stop working.  The way C-1 are going about it now means that those Express customers are just going to move on with a bad taste in their mouth.

    0
  • Brian Jordan
    Moderator

    Barry Justice COExpress died last week before Capture One patched it.  That's the problem.  It may live a long time.  It may live a year.  It may live 60 days.  No one knows.  Now everyone knows.  Everyone has warning to transition their files.  Any other option leaves every user who continues to cross their fingers and hope with a disaster waiting to spring on them. And it will.  Likely, imo, sooner rather than later and they will all be so terribly angry and just will NOT UNDERSTAND why mean old Capture One won't help out just this one time.  Cause my tools panels are gone and I really, really need them.  That's just how users are.  Been there.  Got that shirt in my close.

    0
  • Brian Jordan
    Moderator

    @.... And I've explained to you why I think your'e wrong.  Either you aren't reading what I'm saying or you don't believe me.  But I spent more than 20 years in IT including some time as COO of a tax processing software company.  Sadly, I know how (some) users think.

    Do you not understand that COExpress was dead last week??? But Capture One invested whatever time into reviving it.  When would you have them stop that?

    If it died on 2/2/24 because of so OS update would you be happy?

    0
  • Barry Justice

    Brian Jordan   The DNG I created was from Lightroom 13.0.2  I just tried another one -Enhanced-NR file that I ran through the new NR in my trial of Lightroom and it opened that as well in ACR 9.1.1 with,  incidentally,  all the adjustments I'd made in Lightroom.  Doesn't look like I can add a screenshot on here though.

    0
  • Brian Jordan
    Moderator

    @.... Now if we're talking about how much warning they gave, I'm on board.  Were it me, I'd have communicated all this very differently and it would have started many months ago.  I do not disagree with the decision they made.  I do absolutely disagree with the amount of communication and the timeline.

    0
  • Brian Jordan
    Moderator

    Barry Justice. I don't use ACR.  When was 9.1.1 updated?  All that said, still, RAW editors and pixel editors are fundamentally different.  Pixel editors work on standardized file formats and offer a very deep toolset.  RAW editors work on ever evolving sensor data and their art - their claim to fame - is how they render that data and the tools they provide to manipulate it.  They are fundamentally not the same.

    0
  • M

    Brian Jordan "So now you want them to support an orange because the orange's manufacture has some deal with them but also support all the bananas, too, because a bunch of users who get the product for free really, really want them to?"

    No one here wants any support for Express. I don't know why that is stuck in your head across multiple comments. You also presume that Express customers will be pissed when their software suddenly dies yet this thread is full of actual, real, living Express users who say the complete opposite. Would some people get mad? Sure. That's on them though. If C1 takes the correct steps of notifying users that there will be nor more updates, no new downloads and no support offered than ultimately at that point it's the users fault for missing that communication. In this case, there has been literally 1 email and this forum post. Nothing else posted anywhere on any of the companies socials. Why? Because it's a dumbass way to do business and the people who made the choice know it would be a far worse PR nightmare to publicly put it out there. 

    "You're trying to tell me that a VC firm and their management doesn't understand how to calculate whether a product is profitable"

    I am sure the VC knows how to calculate short terms metrics for short term profitability. That's what a VC is all about. They want their money back ASAP and once they are paid, everything else doesn't matter much anymore aside from extra profits on top of their return. What VC's DO NOT understand is long term growth. You see this in silicon valley all the time. Tech companies get huge investments, they 'move fast and break shit' and then the company goes under because they were chasing fast profits and quick growth instead of building a strong customer base. 

    Now, going back to cancelling licenses, I'd really like to know why exactly you think leaving the existing software running is a bad choice? You have given wrong answers previously based on what you assume users are going to think but putting that reason aside, why is it a bad choice to let people keep using Express who already have it? If the company does 0 maintenance and 0 support, it won't cost them shit so financially, it has no affect either. What is a legitimate reason for doing so? 

    You also haven't commented on the legality of it. I think we both know VC's are always looking for ways to push the boundaries of law and occasionally break them when it suites them. Fines are a cost of doing business for VC's. If hey make a billion and get fines 5 million who gives a shit? Have you read over the license agreement for Express users and do you think after doing so that this move by C1 is legal? 

    You say you don't work for free, were you getting paid fine before this change happened? Would C1 as a company die within a week if it didn't? Are you a talentless man who has no hope at finding a new job if the company goes under? 

    Profits are not everything in this world. Sometimes supporting other humans, even at a cost to you (company in this case) is the better thing to do. Morals exist and more companies need them. 

    0
  • Brian Jordan
    Moderator

    @...

    What are you reading?  I have no idea if CO Express was profitable or not and have not made any suggestions one way or the other in that regard.

    and

    Someone did a back of the envelope calculation that the company would make more money

    I took this as you making that suggestion.

    0
  • Barry Justice

    Brian Jordan   ACR 9.1.1 was released on July 29 2015 according to Google it's the last release that will work with CS6 but it still works with the new Enhanced-NR  DNG

    0
  • Brian Jordan
    Moderator

    M

    Now, going back to cancelling licenses, I'd really like to know why exactly you think leaving the existing software running is a bad choice?

    Answered multiple times.

    You also haven't commented on the legality of it.

    1) I'm not a lawyer.

    2) I don't have a dog in that fight.  I'm not an Express user.  If they cancel my paid for perpetual license, I'll be the very first to talk with an attorney to find out what my actual rights under the license are.  What do they call those class action plaintiffs who get more money than everyone else in the class?  I'll be one of them.  Or I won't because likely the company had an attorney read the contract before they cancelled it.  The same contract I didn't read.

    You say you don't work for free, were you getting paid fine before this change happened?

    You do know none of the mods here work for Capture One, right?  We're volunteer mods.  Capture One users. Just board users like yourself except with a boom and dustpan to clean up some of the spam post and such. 

    Profits are not everything in this world. Sometimes supporting other humans, even at a cost to you (company in this case) is the better thing to do. Morals exist and more companies need them. 

    Yes, sir/ma'am, I agree with you. Unfortunately, that's not the way it works.

    -1
  • Brian Jordan
    Moderator

    Alright, boys and girls.  I've got work to do.  Y'all have all spoken your piece over the last few days.  I was traveling and not able to participate.  I just wanted to have my day in the sun, too.  Some will agree with me.  Some won't.  Maybe I'm off my rocker but maybe I'm not and I was able to contribute some food for though.

     

    0
  • M

    Brian Jordan You haven't answered it multiple times at all. You have given false answers based on your personal assumptions but nothing based in reality. I'll ask again, why is it bad to let existing software run until it dies? If you have an answered based on fact and not assumptions I'd love to read it. 

    I do know you mods work for free. You are the one who brought up not working for free though. Guess you were lying about that since all this arguing with users you are doing is volunteer work. You must be bored like the rest of us I guess. 

    You don't need to be a lawyer to understand a contract just like I don't need to be an umpire to say that the pitch on 2-2 was ball not a strike. You worked as a COO so I am sure you have more ability to understand contracts than most other people. So I will ask you again, lawyer or not, do you think it's legal? Why or why not? As someone not working right now I'm sure you have time to read a couple document pages and come up with an answer. 

    So while you agree with me that profits aren't everything, you still argue that it's correct and right for C1 to do what they are doing because of money? That doesn't make sense. You referenced your own paycheck as a reason they should disable licenses. Are you sure you agree with me? I'd expect someone who does to be agreeing that disabling licenses is wrong. 

    1
  • M

    Brian Jordan Your perpetual license will be next by the way. Give it time but they will take those away from people too. This is the litmus test for that future decision. As a former C suite employee you really should know how to read a companies moves when they make them. 5 years from now, tag me in this thread an I'll send you $50 if I'm wrong. If you think you don't have a dog in this fight you are wrong.

    4
  • Walter Rowe
    Moderator
    Top Commenter

    You would need to study contract law in Denmark. The license agreement explicitly says they are governed by the laws of Denmark.

    -1
  • Antonio F. Shalders

    My two cents here:

    Obviously the company is completely backed by the law. I doubt the are stupid enough to make a such basic mistake. People should refrain theorizing about this.

    The complaint here is only about the greed and the completely unnecessary need to kill existing installations of a properly running software that can be used by people that can't afford to pay for it and preventing to access all the work done.  Is this allowed by the law ? I bet it is but actually I don't care, even less about specific aspects of Denmarks law.

    I refuse to believe that someone here didn't understand the two points above. If yes, someone has some sort of comprehension problem.

    The problem here is the relationship between a software maker and customers. It's sour at the present time.

    I don't use the express version anymore. I stopped a long time ago when I decided to buy the "perpetual" license. So why do I bother about the express ? Simple, I see all this situation as very fishy, raising some very genuine and perfectly logical suspicions about how the company will behave from now.

    What I clearly see is the company trying to push users extremely hard to the subscription model by shortening the update cycle of the "perpetual" licenses making them unusable in the long run. I don't like to be pushed this way like a blackmail. Mistrust is the feeling, the damage was done no matter what they say.

    My raw editors of choice are DxO and RawTherapee since many years. There are some damn good freeware remote tethering tools and the Affinity suite is awesome. There are plenty of options abroad.

    This is why I decided to keep my C1 Pro 21 license and not upgrade it anymore. I'll use it as a TIFF editor for the time it runs and that's it.

    Farewell.

     

    2
  • Brian Jordan
    Moderator

    @...

    From the Capture One Pro agreement (I assume the same clauses are included in the Express agreements):

      1. Controlling Law, Venue and Severability
      2. This Agreement shall be governed by the laws of the Kingdom of Denmark save that any rules concerning choice of law and venue and the UN Convention on Contracts for the International Sale of Goods (“CISG”) are explicitly excluded and will not apply. 
      3. Any dispute shall be settled by the District Court of Copenhagen, Denmark, as the court of first instance.

    Also, I'm pretty sure there is no civil remedy for a free product unless you've suffered personal injury or loss.  I do not think specific performance is an option for a free product.  To my knowledge, no C1Express product has ever been "sold". Again, I am not a lawyer.

    -1
  • John Zandbergen

    Here's a little history, Phase One A/S press release when Fujifilm and Phase One came to an agreement. 

    https://www.mynewsdesk.com/phase-one/pressreleases/phase-one-announces-software-collaboration-with-fujifilm-2714024

    Phase One announces software collaboration with Fujifilm

    COPENHAGEN, Sep. 25, 2018 – Phase One A/S, the world’s leading manufacturer of full frame medium format digital photography systems and imaging solutions today announced a strategic software agreement with Fujifilm.

    Under terms of this agreement, Phase One and Fujifilm are collaborating to broaden and deepen Capture One software support of more Fujifilm cameras. With the release of Capture One 11.3 (see today’s announcement) Capture One has significantly expanded its Fujifilm camera support, with full Fujifilm RAW file and basic tethered support for select cameras. Future development will integrate Fujifilm Film Simulations with Capture One and provide enhanced tethered support for select professional Fujifilm cameras.

    ......

    Capture One Express Fujifilm is free for all Fujifilm camera owners

    ......

    0
  • OddS.

    > Brian Jordan: ...Good will doesn't pay rent or salaries...

    On the mental side of it, what else does? Bad will?

    Thom Hogan wrote about Capture One: "While a business has to concentrate on dollars and cents, customers think about dollars and sense."

    0
  • Northbankboy

    Well said, Brian

    -1
  • Thomas Schneider

    Just one example of how to deal correctly with the expiry of software:

    In 2008 I bought one of my first photo software: Nikon Capture NX2

    I still use the program, even though it was discontinued by Nikon years ago.

    Even today I am still able to install and authorize it on a Windows 11 computer.

    5
  • Antonio F. Shalders

    @...

    That's exactly the point.

    I'm sure the company knows everything you are telling but they just don't care, they want just the big fishes.

    It's a lot of work to establish a good reputation, but losing it is a matter of seconds.

    Example: X losing publicity due to Mr. Musk nonsense.

    2
  • Anbaric

    Brian Jordan writes:

    Why would they ever do such a thing?  I think possibly the answer for that is right in the last update cycle.  Something happened so that there was a significant problem with the Express versions.  I don't know the in-and-outs of it but I do remember that some fix had to be pushed because the tools panel disappeared.  That right there is the answer, I believe.  

    Those are all free versions.  Free as in non-revenue generating.  Good will doesn't pay rent or salaries.  But, pushing that fix did cost developer and QA time.  So, Capture One has a choice:  Let it zombie on and flat out fail at some point sooner or later or kill it.  If they go with the former, it dies with no notice to users.  Something happens with an OS upgrade or some shared code and users wake up to find the application DOA with no notice.  Or they can give users notice and take it on the chin but allow users a graceful spin-down period with a set deadline.

    You can put yourself through all sorts of mental contortions imagining a 'good' reason for C1 to act in this way when the obvious explanation is probably the correct one - they imagine they will be able to force more upgrades to Pro this way. Whether that's the case or not remains to be seen, because goodwill and trust, qualities that many successful companies cultivate in a highly competitive market, are being lost here. And they feed directly into purchasing decisions. If someone who got burned by this trick starts to look at Lightroom and ON1 and DxO and Luminar and Silkypix and Affinity, maybe the company that did not reach out to their computer and snatch away the software they had no reason to believe they wouldn't be able to use indefinitely will get their cash. When influencers like Thom Hogan are binning C1 because of this stunt and the devaluing of the 'perpetual' version with a drastically shortened support period, it may be time for even C1's management to take notice.

    The broken version of Express is a red herring - that, as I understand it, was a defective C1 update, not a compatibility problem with an OS update, which is an entirely different thing. If users were allowed to continue using a stable version after the end of support, this sort of issue would not arise since they would be receiving no new updates, broken or otherwise. It's possible, of course, that some future OS update would break things, and obviously new cameras would not be supported, but that's expected from discontinued, unsupported software. It's exactly the same for the 'perpetually' licensed C1 Pro copies that are still on sale. By your argument, shouldn't these be killed off too at some defined end date, 'for the good of the users'? After all, they are no longer generating any revenue. Should we expect some future seasonal greeting from C1 to announce the switch-off of older 'perpetual' versions? Moderators on this forum say no, but they won't be the ones making the decisions.

    Fundamentally, discontinuing a product and withdrawing active support (which nobody here is saying they can't do) are very different to C1 throwing a kill switch we never knew existed just because they can, not with what I would describe as a 'graceful spin-down period', but at extremely short notice. They wouldn't have to spend another penny on further development to allow continued use of the licenses until the sofware becomes too outdated to be useful, any more than they do on old versions of C1 Pro. Instead, they've chosen to cut off Express users in a way that even Adobe would blush at.

    4
  • Christian Damhus

    still a bad decision, regardless whether you are a user of Express or Pro.

    2
  • Reuf

    As a long time Fuji hobbyist photographer I am also deeply disappointed with the decision to discontinue Capture One Express and mostly with the fact that existing installations will stop working. As a full time software developer for more than 10 years I am fully aware of the costs of developing complex specialized software and the costs of keeping up with all the latest cameras and lenses.

    However, I can also not justify the costs of the Pro version - for me the Express feature set + adjustment layers with only basic masking capabilities (and maybe Dehaze) restricted for a single camera brand is all I (and many enthusiasts) would ever need and would gladly pay a reduced fee for such a product. The perpetual license doesn't work for me - I could pay it once and would have done it a long time ago if it wasn't for the fear that tomorrow it will not work with my new camera/lens and I would have to pay the full price again to upgrade. That is ridiculous - I've already paid for the majority of features, the new lens support shouldn't cost another $350. That's why I've limited myself to the Express version even with the lack of Adjustment layers that I occasionally feel I need.

    2
  • M

    Reuf As a software dev, are you able to speak on whether it would be easy or not for C1 to just let the existing installations run their course instead of completely disabling them? It's pretty much the main reason why a lot of others are pissed off about C1's choice to disable licenses and make the software unusable.

    1
  • M

    Anbaric Well said. Hit the nail right on the head. Rafael should take a read. 

    Rafael is the CEO of C1 so if anyone from C1 should be commenting on this it's him. His company, his responsibility, his problem. 

    2
  • BeO
    Top Commenter

    Regarding the disabling of existing installations on customers computers, a 6 month period (or more) would have been much more acceptable than 7 weeks, the latter is really ridiculous. Period. I have not seen a single argument which would justify this short notice.

    If the Express version is like the Pro version then letting the installations running for good is associated a cost, i.e. the servers which the software is periodically connecting to in order have the license key verified. If that is a considerable cost or not of course I don't know. But I understand that C1 does not want to be bothered with this for years. 

     

    Right next to shutting down licenses is yanking away bug fixes from perpetual licenses.  Because your product is FULL of bugs, many of which take a really long time to get fixed, it's ridiculous that a perpetual license customer only gets bug fixes for 1-3 months.

    Fully agree. Ridiculous. Period. If the software would be nearly free of bugs, or at least fully free of regression bugs, this could be sort of acceptable. But the opposite is true, unfortunately.

    1
  • Reuf

    M I think there might be a fundamentally different way of how the Pro version and the Express versions authenticate to the server. Somebody mentioned that even if you put Capture One Express behind a firewall and prevent it from connecting to the internet it will stop working after a month of not being able to talk to its authentication server, which means that letting existing users keep using the Express version would require an active authentication server. I don't think that's the case with the Pro version, if you can use it fully offline which would again indicate a different authentication workflow that would be putting some burden on the team to support. Putting the cost of running that server and database aside (which should be really negligible), the only logical technical reason I can see for shutting down existing activations is that they don't have a way to prevent new Express activations without some extra development effort that they are not willing to spend.

    0
  • M

    Reuf Would it be fairly easy to push a small update to disable the need for authentication all together? If so, they wouldn't need to maintain anything on their end afterwards including the auth servers. Surely that wouldn't take more than a day to put together? 

    0

Please sign in to leave a comment.