New Feature Release 16.4 -> Money, money, money ...
The release of 16.3 was at the end of October 2023. Mid-May 24, half a year later another pay version 16.4 :(((
@CaptureOne: your management has learned nothing in the last year. Money, money, money ... but for what???
I have just extended my Adobe subscription for Lightroom/Photoshop by 5 years. At a price that CaptureOne wants to charge for the perpetual licenses for 16.3 and 16.4 in one year.
CaptureOne was my software of choice for many years. That is now history for me.
Goodbye
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Indeed, the update is very "thin" for a big price. I would have expec a free upgrade or <100€ for that.
So I will be waiting for anything new. Actually, I am looking for more stability/speed and less feature.
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After 17 years in which I only skipped one version, I finally jumped ship and swam over to the dark side. This new ‘loyalty’ scheme with paid upgrades twice a year is finally too much for me, in addition to the unfixed bugs, the killing off instead of integration of MediaPro, the lack of decent DAM, etc. It’s a shame though, because I still prefer the product despite all this, but these days even Adobe seems more customer centric. And no, I won’t let the door hit me on the way out :-)
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Emile Gregoire I feel the same. However CaptureOne 16.3 is far the best for my workflow. Especially wiht Live, Session and Colour tools.
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Emile Gregoire .. nothing requires you to upgrade .. why give up the app vs waiting until you feel enough compelling features have been added to warrant upgrading?
You said you still prefer Capture One. Moving elsewhere when you prefer Capture One and Capture One still works makes no sense to me.
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@walter Rowe, I understand the move, I'm facing the same decision. I still have my subscription but will probably end it soon. The background is simply that I don't have to switch unprepared if there is a system update and the CO application is no longer running. In my case, this is a minor problem as I have a subscription and am supplied with updates, but for the others it looks more problematic. I think CO is building up a new target group and leaving the long-standing users behind.
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The new version 16.3 of Lightroom Classic was released today. Interesting new AI functions and more. For the subscription of LR Classic + LR Cloud +LR mobile + Photoshop I pay 6,50€ per month.
How much does the comparable CaptureOne subscription cost? Wow, 3 to 4 times as much.Any questions?
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@SFA I agree with you about Apple, although I am a big fan of Apple. But the difference here is clearly in the pricing. As long as my hardware is functional, I won't pay an extra cent for the software for many years. Bugs and security-relevant updates are still released for some previous versions if I don't want to upgrade. But that's a different line of business. At the moment, it seems to me that CO is or will be a Pro Express version.
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I want to reply again to all those who approve of the core of the company's policy and advise all users who want to switch to LR/PS to do so. I don't think any software manufacturer wants to lose customers. How long have most people here been working with C1? It's not just about LR, but also about other applications such as On1, DXO and other RAW converters. All of them have more functionalities than C1 (denoising, AI, better masks). However, C1 is the most expensive product. And not all photographers need studio features. C1 has risked losing regular customers over the last few years through a policy of inflated prices. Because once customers have left, they won't come back any time soon!
I think all the criticism here goes towards the company! Please don't criticize those who don't like the version policy. They could have just called 16.4 17. Then we wouldn't all have such a bad feeling about it.
@Nicolas: PhaseOne and CaptureOne are one and the same company!0 -
@... - in fact Phase One and Capture One have been separate companies for about 5 years. (Albeit both owned by the same private equity company.)
Ian
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Let's keep in mind that Capture One has made many updates to their mobile apps and desktop pro app over the last 6 months all the while they were working on the new Studio Edition features. We have auto cropping ("smart cropping" as I like to call it), improved GPU-based AI masking, speed improvements for macOS file operations, improved catalogs with smaller preview file sizes and sharper thumbnails (my catalog is 50% its prior size), Live View tethering in the mobile apps, lots of new camera support, and other updates.
I don't feel you can argue you are getting less for more. I would argue you are getting more for more.
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I agree. Capture One is not Lightroom et al., and that is fine by me because I find LR to be unintuitive, frustrating to use layers, does not have place-able color read outs, terrible with tethering and the interface is less customizable. It is by no means a professional software, however Capture One certainly is. I use Capture One because no other software can do what it does. And I use Photoshop to edit pixels because Capture One can not (nor any other raw converter). It's just that simple. I don't understand why folks that find LR to suit their needs better, don't simply use LR and go about their business. No one would purchase a commercial farming tractor to mow their lawns then complain about how expensive it is.
To that I will say, I do find Capture One's leadership to be troubling, lacking empathy and misguided. Their entire approach over the last two years has chipped away at my confidence in them as a company and I often question their future. The loyalty approach is verging on embarrassing and absolutely frustrating to keep up with. I fear them going out of business and my entire archive becoming locked out. I would imagine a large percentage of people's anger has less to do with what Capture One has been doing and more with how they've gone about doing it. I hope Capture One can get back (pre-pandemic) to a more stable standing, focus on being the best at what they do and once and for all find a way to become consistent and transparent.
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Yes and no, Walter, more no than yes.
Let's keep in mind that Capture One has made many updates to their mobile apps and desktop pro app over the last 6 months all the while they were working on the new Studio Edition features.
I neither use the mobile app nor the Studio edition.
We have auto cropping ("smart cropping" as I like to call it),
Agreed, this may be a thing for some. But only for those who need to edit lots of images fast. Instead of AI noise reduction they come with AI cropping. Each to their own...
improved GPU-based AI masking,
As it could be done in batch, it was reasonably fast on my medium spec'ed Windows PC without it.
speed improvements for macOS file operations,
I don't have a Mac.
improved catalogs with smaller preview file sizes and sharper thumbnails (my catalog is 50% its prior size),
Bigger thumbnails would have been a thing, the smaller previews files and sharper thumbnails I don't mind
Live View tethering in the mobile apps,
No app on my phone.
lots of new camera support,
I don't have a new camera.
and other updates.
Mobile app and Studio edition comes at an extra cost, so this is hardly an argument for high prices for the Pro desktop applications.
Then, a good part of the new features is for the Studio version only, the introduction of Studio is ripping off us Pro users who have been and are financing the Capture One company for so many years, we are now in a competition for development resources too. They dropped the Express and brand-specific versions, kept only the Pro edition, made all pigs equal, but now they started to make some pigs more equal than others...
Studio only features:
Client viewers, Advanced AI crop, multiple compare variants, new tokens
At least the latter two two or three should be available in the Pro version, their use case is not limited to Studio photography!
Bottom line: I don't seem to belong to their target customer base, that's ok, but nearly every change the company does reinforces my impression that the private equity owner of the company tries to squeeze every penny out of us.
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BeO .. these updates don't have as much benefit for you. fair enough. each user will do their own similar evaluation and determine whether the updates are beneficial enough to them to warrant upgrading.
in this regard nothing has changed for the entire life of Capture One or any other software. many users skipped multiple annual release cycles in the prior release model. they didn't feel the additions benefited them enough to warrant upgrading. when a feature finally came that they couldn't live without, or enough features had accumulated to benefit them, then they would upgrade.
the ability to evaluate the enhancements as they come and determine their benefit vs cost remains the same. the significant change is that features now come more quickly so their entire ecosystem matures faster. with the increased pace of change comes a corresponding increase in frequency of doing that assessment of cost vs benefit.
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Walter Rowe Not only, the update offers mild improvements, but does not seen to fix the instability introduced in 16.3 (on my system).
So I always have to "pray" 16.3 works with nice new features (Mask AI) or use 16.2.. Now praying that some updates 16.4.x or 16.5 would render back the software stable. And hoping that filtered "pick all" which has been removed with cull, comes back. Cull which I could not find any use for..
This is not a way to work with pros. It reminds me OpenSource/GPL Software management.
That said, even with this regression, C1 is still far the best RAW convertor when it comes to colours, speed and collaboration.
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Nicolas Det .. do you have a support case open for your instability issues? some users who have these issues find that it is system specific. have you look at the requirements capture one suggests for running their software? are drivers up to date? is your OS compatible with the version of Capture One you are running? what other software do you have running? is your graphics card powerful enough? there are many factors that can influence your working system. a support case can help determine if any of these factors apply to your issues.
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Walter Rowe. Yes, and yes. but they could not fix it yet.
This is system specific, C1's team can not reproduces it. My system is fast and up-to-date (Latest drivers, latest Windows 10, 8 cores, 64 GB RAM, RTX 2080). However, C1 runs perfectly stable on my 12 years old Mac.
The error 0xc00000005 only occurs when Live is working
I understand this is not a priority as most of the user are (hopefully) not affected. But it has to be fixed somehow. For me, it means, when it's fixed, I will probably have to pay >150€ just to get stability back. It's a bit painful.
Fact is, even with that instability, and issues, C1 is still far ahead and faster than concurrences
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Walter Rowe. I get your point, and in a way it's valid. Yet in my eyes it's just not the same company it was before and I don't like the feeling that they're using whatever way possible to extract more money out of their customers, all the while delivering a product that in many ways is great but in others is lackluster at best (DAM) and has issues that port over from version to version. It's just not worth the ever increasing price to me anymore so instead of sticking around and hoping for change, I decided to rip off the band-aid and move over. Why wait any longer. But that's just me and I don't want to be whining about it; I just wanted to answer your question all the same!
Emile Gregoire .. nothing requires you to upgrade .. why give up the app vs waiting until you feel enough compelling features have been added to warrant upgrading?
You said you still prefer Capture One. Moving elsewhere when you prefer Capture One and Capture One still works makes no sense to me.
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Indeed, I tried a bunch of others software after 16.4 released. However, not get closed to C1 for my needs.
The first rule of a company should be: do not make your customers angry.
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We need to accept that Capture One(Company) realized they can’t compete with Adobe with their product as general purpose photography software. They lack resources so they focused on features they have better or unique and market segment they dominate. I also find complaints about price a bit too harsh. 50€ per month for most expensive trier for professionals living from photography shouldn’t be considered as expensive. I’m user of Photo Mechanic, company behind it introduced subscription model and increased price. Perpetual license cost now 500$ with one year of free updates. It’s two times the price before increase. This is what I call unreasonable pricing for mainly metadata management and culling software. As owner of previous version I can’t even upgrade my license at discount I need to buy new license or new subscription for full price.
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John Friend
Capture One was developed as a companion software and tether capture platform for the Phase One camera system. Hardly an amateur or hobbyist software. My question is, why don’t hobbyists or amateurs use a software that caters to them?! Like LR or others? I’m guessing they want to use Capture One? If so what’s the problem?
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The whole point is the subscription VS buy option.
If one buy the software (aka perpetual licence), the software company needs to introduce new interesting features in the next version in order to get the user to upgrade or new user.
If one subscribe mouthily to a software, the user is dependant of the company to work. In the case of a working pro photographer, you have no choice: Pay 24€ monthly or stop working.
The best example is version 16.4, there is absolutely nothing worth 200€ (upgrade from 16.3) in this update for most. AI Crop is nice, accelerated mask AI is good. But, most will just not benefit of that. A friend of mine has a fast PC but without OpenCL capable card... This update does not bring much, but it's 200€ or 6'24=144€...
Add to that some instability, and removing working feature (filtered pick all), the bill is spicy.
As a working pro, I just can not make my work dependent of a monthly payment for unknown stuffs... It should work first, and always.
Yet, running a company is not easy, and money has to come. However, frustrate old users, is not the way to go. For 2 years, I would recommend anyone to jump in CaptureOne, I would have never thing about leaving the boat myself, even if a completive software would come up.
Today, I would jump anytime if possible. In the meanwhile, I feel it was a good decision to go for the perpetual licence.
Anyway, C1 has just no concurrence as a pro photo software (for my needs) yet. It's a total joy to work with it. Lr, DXo, Darktable and so on are light years away.
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@... Yes. AI Mask is a real great feature and worth an upgrade. 16.4 does not have anything comparable.
I will just keep my 16.3 until anything useful comes or until stability is improved.
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Honestly try to think about features introduced to Lr and Ps before big AI thing. How many of them were useful to you? I can’t remember for how long I was frustrated by lack of any substantial update to Adobe products. At some point I even bought Affinity software package, but after couple of months I subscribed Adobe again. There was no alternative because cheaper product was in fact good but Photoshop was better and had features that were implemented much better. It just saves work hours. It is the same with Capture One. Customization of interface and hotkeys is one of biggest advantages saving me many hours each week.
I struggle to understand when people think grass is greener on the other side of the fence. As yourself how much did you spend on photographic and computer gear. Is 200€ a year for subscription( or license upgrade with discount)that much in comparison with this spendings?1 -
Silly? Software is one of most important parts of workflow in digital photography. More important than cameras etc this days. I can argue that spending thousands of $ on gear and complaining about software price is silly.Why? Because people justify camera price, but software is something rarely worth the money in their opinion. As if in film days photographer would say that he wants to spend as little as possible on film stock, development and processing.
Just shoot JPG or use open source soft, it is even less expensive then Adobe, if cheap is your main concern. Most ironic thing is that people are willing to redo all their work, when switching software, because they didn't get enough updates.
I can understand, to some degree, concerns about future of CO. But to be frank It was never really meant for non pros. It main selling point is tethering and studio workflow oriented tools. It attracted enthusiasts because it was somehow cheap (while on sale) and had perpetual license. When prices increased I can hear complaints from all around about pricing and licence changes. No one think and care about great toolset, workflow efficiency and probably best on the market raw conversion.
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Why does CaptureOne not only describe new functions in the Release Notes, but also bug fixes?
Bug fixes should correct errors in previous versions. As a buyer of the previous version, you are entitled to a correction of the errors!So I am curious whether there will be an update with these bug fixes for version 16.3.
What about the correct handling of DNG photos? CaptureOne still has problems with that. This complicates the use of Topaz Photo AI, for example. The collaboration between Lightroom and Topaz Photo AI works much better.
One should expect from a program for professionals that not only new features are presented, but that shortcomings are also solved.
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How people view and distribute their spending is completely up to them, to each their own. For me the total cost of my "advanced hobbyism" is important, from end-to-end, i.e. from capturing the scene to the printed photo. I need to strike the right balance between cost for gear, post-processing and printing in order to maximise efficiency, not only interms of cost but also in terms of hours spent. Personally I tend to spend less money on gear and focus more on post-processing as I find that this gives me the best overall performance and efficiency. I too have been looking at cheaper solutions and I have tried to fall in love with Adobe many times because "on paper" it makes so much sense. But reality turned out differently for me, C1 gives me better results faster, plus a joyful experience, so I guess it just suits my needs better. But that's just me, others will have a different view.
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DNG support is non existent if files are not native for camera. I have thousands of pre CO RAWs converted to DNG (my mistake from Lightroom days). Nikon files work fine with exposure boost. But GFX files fall apart. Sometimes CO read them as not supported file and apply DNG neutral profile. It is nightmare, no real reason behind as some files are fine and some are not. The same is with pixel shift images from GFX 100s. Exposure and colour is off compared to original (single) file. There is no support for film simulation for dng files even when they are pixel shift (which is officially supported, and CO is Fujifilm recommended RAW developer) or CO panorama or HDR. Best to avoid dng completely in CO. I have no idea why other developers can implement it correctly, but CO can't. As for Topaz AI I have found that raw denoise doesn't work as well as denoising tiff from CO. At least for GFX 50s and 100s files.
I just avoid DNG whenever possible, so I never have to be upset by all this mess in CO connected to DNG support.
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DNG works fine with LR/PS, with DXO, ...
Denoise with DXO ist best, Sharpen Lens Blur oder Motion Blur with Topaz Photo AI.
Using those DNGs from DXO oder Topaz Photo AI in CaptureOne -> forget it ...
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I too have been looking at cheaper solutions and I have tried to fall in love with Adobe many times because "on paper" it makes so much sense. But reality turned out differently for me, C1 gives me better results faster, plus a joyful experience, so I guess it just suits my needs better.
This is exact reason why I see Photoshop or Capture One as essential tools for me. No other software has capabilities I need, so either I accept the price, which is fair, or pick inferior ( for me) and cheaper product.
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I actually use DNGs quite a lot (from smartphone, drone, DXo, ...) and it works flawlessly.
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