New Feature Release 16.4 -> Money, money, money ...
The release of 16.3 was at the end of October 2023. Mid-May 24, half a year later another pay version 16.4 :(((
@CaptureOne: your management has learned nothing in the last year. Money, money, money ... but for what???
I have just extended my Adobe subscription for Lightroom/Photoshop by 5 years. At a price that CaptureOne wants to charge for the perpetual licenses for 16.3 and 16.4 in one year.
CaptureOne was my software of choice for many years. That is now history for me.
Goodbye
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I've actually been a big fan of Capture One for years, but now I think it's getting too much. I didn't mind the subscription model and I understand that the costs have to be covered. If you don't always need the latest features you can choose the alternative license. With the introduction it was also said that the functions will be continuously expanded and new functions will be added. Now I have an All in One Pro license and the new functions are packed into a new application called CO Studio. From my point of view, we have now financed the development of a new application without benefiting from the new features ourselves. It's a shame, but I'm getting closer and closer to saying goodbye.
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CaptureOne is way better and faster than LR. No match in my opinion.
However, paying 200€ (for an upgrade to 16.4 perpetual licence) for one new feature (Crop AI) and one updated feature (GPU accelerated AI Mask) is quite hard.
First time ever, I will not update at that price.
I am waiting for other stuffs like Pick All Fix, batch HDR, GPU accelerated HDR, general stability improvements. However, C1's customers look to be more in studio. So the company cares less about event/architecture stuff.
Wait and see how it will go
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For what it's worth, I personally don't know any working professional (in my circle) that ever uses a 'current' version of C1. New releases are notoriously buggy and when on set you cannot afford software failures. If you prefer to use C1, the way to go is buy a perpetual license and work one version behind. Save your money and update when there is a feature that significantly improves your workflow and a few .x.x (or whatever they call it now) bug updates have been released.
This whole enterprise (pun intended) of multiple feature releases a year is meant to be like holding a shiny object to a baby to entice you into a subscription. The problem is, they rush out the releases and more often than not, the resulting bugs are more problematic than the usefulness of the new feature. Stay on your perpetual license and until you need to update.
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I'm a long time Capture One Pro user, the worrying thing about this update and the precedent it sets for future updates.
I understand the requirements for a 'Studio' version but to not give the fuller functioning AI crop tool to both versions is a really strange decision.
'Pro' no longer means 'Pro'. I understand about collaborative features but not a tool like this?
I hope this is rectified and isn't the start of a two-tier system!
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This Pro edition minor release feature set is a joke. And still they don't fix all regression defects even if reported by a customer. Do they really think such a customer relationship attitude coupled with a bad value proposition for the upgrade is going to tease me upgrading? I am very dissappointed, but if I had a subscription, I would be p***ed.
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I am on a subscription to be renewed in a couple of days. What worries me most with the announcement of C1 Studio is the fact that limited engineering resources now have to support another variant of Capture One. As I would assume that C1 Studio has the highest margin amongst different C1 product the company naturally will direct it’s resources there leaving C1 Pro with even bigger issues in terms of catching up with (e.g.) Adobe. I am really not sure if I should renew my subscription even though I like C1 very much and dislike LR/PS even more. Maybe I can get used to Adobes tools if I try really hard …
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After 17 years in which I only skipped one version, I finally jumped ship and swam over to the dark side. This new ‘loyalty’ scheme with paid upgrades twice a year is finally too much for me, in addition to the unfixed bugs, the killing off instead of integration of MediaPro, the lack of decent DAM, etc. It’s a shame though, because I still prefer the product despite all this, but these days even Adobe seems more customer centric. And no, I won’t let the door hit me on the way out :-)
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@walter Rowe, I understand the move, I'm facing the same decision. I still have my subscription but will probably end it soon. The background is simply that I don't have to switch unprepared if there is a system update and the CO application is no longer running. In my case, this is a minor problem as I have a subscription and am supplied with updates, but for the others it looks more problematic. I think CO is building up a new target group and leaving the long-standing users behind.
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Yes. But doubling the price is a bit hard...
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I misread the C1 promo about 16.4, and thought it claimed general GPU acceleration, but it only applies to AI masking, which on my Mac Studio is rather fast for my use. I was disappointed. Until a big improvement is released, 16.3 works for me and I see no reason to upgrade my perpetual license, yet. The improvements in 16.4 will not be of substantial use to me, and so I will upgrade when enough improvements tempt me more. I do not see this as a big deal. It is not as if a breakthrough in C1's capabilities is going to hugely impact what I do with C1 already.
If you do high volume commercial photography, there are gradual improvements that could benefit your bottom line more than the cost of an upgrade. Wait until the cost:benefit ratio of an upgrade is favorable.
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I have been a C1 user for many years and I don't like LR at all. But for me, the new features in version 16.4 are completely unimportant. It would have been fair to the other users to offer all 16.x versions free of charge for active users and only charge an update price again from version 17 (with good, new features).
Most other software providers do it this way.
Do you need the money? Don't you sell any more cameras?
Is the pressure from Fuji, Leica and Hasselblad too great?
Take an example from Blackmagic Davinci Resolve. One perpetual purchase and all future versions included!
Too much greed for money will lead to you having to close down sooner or later!2 -
Emile Gregoire I feel the same. However CaptureOne 16.3 is far the best for my workflow. Especially wiht Live, Session and Colour tools.
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The new version 16.3 of Lightroom Classic was released today. Interesting new AI functions and more. For the subscription of LR Classic + LR Cloud +LR mobile + Photoshop I pay 6,50€ per month.
How much does the comparable CaptureOne subscription cost? Wow, 3 to 4 times as much.Any questions?
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How people view and distribute their spending is completely up to them, to each their own. For me the total cost of my "advanced hobbyism" is important, from end-to-end, i.e. from capturing the scene to the printed photo. I need to strike the right balance between cost for gear, post-processing and printing in order to maximise efficiency, not only interms of cost but also in terms of hours spent. Personally I tend to spend less money on gear and focus more on post-processing as I find that this gives me the best overall performance and efficiency. I too have been looking at cheaper solutions and I have tried to fall in love with Adobe many times because "on paper" it makes so much sense. But reality turned out differently for me, C1 gives me better results faster, plus a joyful experience, so I guess it just suits my needs better. But that's just me, others will have a different view.
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I see some people are confused. Pro and Studio both have AI Crop. In Pro it is automated(mode selection), in studio you can use auto, subject, face modes and in general have more control with some more options. I tested it extensively and for 90% of users I doubt extra controls from Studio would be substantially useful. I even used some product shots to test if some effects can’t be replicated by auto crop in Pro and I can say that I never felt auto AI crop was insufficient. Mode detection and crop ratio replication and placement in the frame as in reference photo was to my eyes just perfect.
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From the pure economics point of view, whether or not there is a high margin I don't know, but a high margin doesn't do much for you without a high volume of sales. If only a very small number of customers go for the high-margin product, there is still more revenue to be earned from the lower margin but higher volume one.
Ian
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Pro version, Studio version... I am anticipating a "Studio Pro" version in the future, where most of the development effort is going to be spent, partly trickling down to the Studio and Pro versions. :-)
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I agree.
However CaptureOne does not make any hardware.
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Capture One is not adhering to the major version numbering scheme of the past. You could imaging 16.3 as version 17, and 16.4 as version 18, but they aren't numbering versions the same way now. Rather than getting all version 16 updates for free, you are now getting all 16.3.x updates when you purchase 16.3, or all 16.4.x updates when you purchase 16.4.
Black Magic Design is a completely model. They make cameras and hardware for production studios and make most of their revenue from that. This affords them the ability to offer their software at a very competitive price with lifetime upgrades.
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@...
But if the new features in version 16.4 are unimportant to you, you are free not to take that particular update, and therefore pay nothing.
Ian
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Indeed, the update is very "thin" for a big price. I would have expec a free upgrade or <100€ for that.
So I will be waiting for anything new. Actually, I am looking for more stability/speed and less feature.
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Emile Gregoire .. nothing requires you to upgrade .. why give up the app vs waiting until you feel enough compelling features have been added to warrant upgrading?
You said you still prefer Capture One. Moving elsewhere when you prefer Capture One and Capture One still works makes no sense to me.
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Yes and no, Walter, more no than yes.
Let's keep in mind that Capture One has made many updates to their mobile apps and desktop pro app over the last 6 months all the while they were working on the new Studio Edition features.
I neither use the mobile app nor the Studio edition.
We have auto cropping ("smart cropping" as I like to call it),
Agreed, this may be a thing for some. But only for those who need to edit lots of images fast. Instead of AI noise reduction they come with AI cropping. Each to their own...
improved GPU-based AI masking,
As it could be done in batch, it was reasonably fast on my medium spec'ed Windows PC without it.
speed improvements for macOS file operations,
I don't have a Mac.
improved catalogs with smaller preview file sizes and sharper thumbnails (my catalog is 50% its prior size),
Bigger thumbnails would have been a thing, the smaller previews files and sharper thumbnails I don't mind
Live View tethering in the mobile apps,
No app on my phone.
lots of new camera support,
I don't have a new camera.
and other updates.
Mobile app and Studio edition comes at an extra cost, so this is hardly an argument for high prices for the Pro desktop applications.
Then, a good part of the new features is for the Studio version only, the introduction of Studio is ripping off us Pro users who have been and are financing the Capture One company for so many years, we are now in a competition for development resources too. They dropped the Express and brand-specific versions, kept only the Pro edition, made all pigs equal, but now they started to make some pigs more equal than others...
Studio only features:
Client viewers, Advanced AI crop, multiple compare variants, new tokens
At least the latter two two or three should be available in the Pro version, their use case is not limited to Studio photography!
Bottom line: I don't seem to belong to their target customer base, that's ok, but nearly every change the company does reinforces my impression that the private equity owner of the company tries to squeeze every penny out of us.
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The whole point is the subscription VS buy option.
If one buy the software (aka perpetual licence), the software company needs to introduce new interesting features in the next version in order to get the user to upgrade or new user.
If one subscribe mouthily to a software, the user is dependant of the company to work. In the case of a working pro photographer, you have no choice: Pay 24€ monthly or stop working.
The best example is version 16.4, there is absolutely nothing worth 200€ (upgrade from 16.3) in this update for most. AI Crop is nice, accelerated mask AI is good. But, most will just not benefit of that. A friend of mine has a fast PC but without OpenCL capable card... This update does not bring much, but it's 200€ or 6'24=144€...
Add to that some instability, and removing working feature (filtered pick all), the bill is spicy.
As a working pro, I just can not make my work dependent of a monthly payment for unknown stuffs... It should work first, and always.
Yet, running a company is not easy, and money has to come. However, frustrate old users, is not the way to go. For 2 years, I would recommend anyone to jump in CaptureOne, I would have never thing about leaving the boat myself, even if a completive software would come up.
Today, I would jump anytime if possible. In the meanwhile, I feel it was a good decision to go for the perpetual licence.
Anyway, C1 has just no concurrence as a pro photo software (for my needs) yet. It's a total joy to work with it. Lr, DXo, Darktable and so on are light years away.
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Honestly try to think about features introduced to Lr and Ps before big AI thing. How many of them were useful to you? I can’t remember for how long I was frustrated by lack of any substantial update to Adobe products. At some point I even bought Affinity software package, but after couple of months I subscribed Adobe again. There was no alternative because cheaper product was in fact good but Photoshop was better and had features that were implemented much better. It just saves work hours. It is the same with Capture One. Customization of interface and hotkeys is one of biggest advantages saving me many hours each week.
I struggle to understand when people think grass is greener on the other side of the fence. As yourself how much did you spend on photographic and computer gear. Is 200€ a year for subscription( or license upgrade with discount)that much in comparison with this spendings?1 -
Silly? Software is one of most important parts of workflow in digital photography. More important than cameras etc this days. I can argue that spending thousands of $ on gear and complaining about software price is silly.Why? Because people justify camera price, but software is something rarely worth the money in their opinion. As if in film days photographer would say that he wants to spend as little as possible on film stock, development and processing.
Just shoot JPG or use open source soft, it is even less expensive then Adobe, if cheap is your main concern. Most ironic thing is that people are willing to redo all their work, when switching software, because they didn't get enough updates.
I can understand, to some degree, concerns about future of CO. But to be frank It was never really meant for non pros. It main selling point is tethering and studio workflow oriented tools. It attracted enthusiasts because it was somehow cheap (while on sale) and had perpetual license. When prices increased I can hear complaints from all around about pricing and licence changes. No one think and care about great toolset, workflow efficiency and probably best on the market raw conversion.
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DNG support is non existent if files are not native for camera. I have thousands of pre CO RAWs converted to DNG (my mistake from Lightroom days). Nikon files work fine with exposure boost. But GFX files fall apart. Sometimes CO read them as not supported file and apply DNG neutral profile. It is nightmare, no real reason behind as some files are fine and some are not. The same is with pixel shift images from GFX 100s. Exposure and colour is off compared to original (single) file. There is no support for film simulation for dng files even when they are pixel shift (which is officially supported, and CO is Fujifilm recommended RAW developer) or CO panorama or HDR. Best to avoid dng completely in CO. I have no idea why other developers can implement it correctly, but CO can't. As for Topaz AI I have found that raw denoise doesn't work as well as denoising tiff from CO. At least for GFX 50s and 100s files.
I just avoid DNG whenever possible, so I never have to be upset by all this mess in CO connected to DNG support.
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I too have been looking at cheaper solutions and I have tried to fall in love with Adobe many times because "on paper" it makes so much sense. But reality turned out differently for me, C1 gives me better results faster, plus a joyful experience, so I guess it just suits my needs better.
This is exact reason why I see Photoshop or Capture One as essential tools for me. No other software has capabilities I need, so either I accept the price, which is fair, or pick inferior ( for me) and cheaper product.
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As an amateur enthusiast with a subscription plan , it is clear to me that Capture One is devoting most of its developer resources to satisfying the needs of comercial photographers. I can only assume that this is a marketing decision based on return on investment, but it leaves me disappointed with almost every update that contains few meaningful enhancements for non-professionals like myself. Why must I so frequently turn to external editors for so many now commonplace features? To be clear, I love the C1 interface and the results that I get, but it is increasingly becoming a niche program for a specific group of users.
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I'm just an amateur enthusiast too. But this whole discussion makes me ponder the irony that many of us amateur enthusiasts spend a lot of money on what are essentially professional cameras (at least I know I do) but expect "Pro" software features and pricing plans to cater to amateurs rather than primarily professionals. I've only myself to blame if I choose to use "Pro" software rather than, say, just Apple Photos or Snapseed. But I do choose to, despite the fact that I know full well that my work is not up to professional standard.
Just an opinion!
Ian
Disclaimer - despite being a Moderator in the forum I just do that as a volunteer. I do not work for or represent Capture One.
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