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I do not want session or catalog: How to get old UI?

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20 comments

  • Ian Wilson
    I think that what you were accustomed to doing is just the same as using C1 8 with a single session. (Whether you knew it or not, there always was a session, the default one just being called Capture One Session). If you don't want to use catalogues you don't have to - many of us don't - though with increasing numbers of images to deal with you may want to start new sessions from time to time. I just use C1 as an amateur enthusiast, and my approach is to start a new session every so often, like "2014 Spring" or "2014 Summer holiday" etc. The standard session structure is that there is a capture folder, where the imported raw files go, a selects folder where I can put ones I think I might want to keep, an output folder where the processed JPGs go, and a trash folder.

    Ian
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  • Bertho Boman
    Thanks Ian for replying.
    I already have a file system that works well. NEFs are imported and renamed into folders based on projects, models and so on. I similarly have output folders predefined.
    With previous versions I could just point C1 to a NEF folder, define an output folder and start editing/converting. The previews and info files were automatically saved in the same source folder. When I was done I could archive and copy source project folders and the side files automatically were saved and kept together. I have used that system since rev 4 and it works very well.
    How can I setup C1 8.1 to work like that?
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  • SFA
    Bertho,

    That, basically, is a session.

    I use the same process except that I usually, but not always, create a session per "shoot" when I am capturing an event of some sort. The same idea as your folder except that I tend to have several folders for an event so grouping them in a session is helpful.

    Almost nothing has changed in V8 as far as using sessions is concerned. The only difference I can think of is that previous versions, when creating a new session, would ask if the session was for a Tethered shoot in which case the default set of useful folders offered would include a "Capture" folder into which the tethered images would be saved by default. Non-tethered sessions did not have that folder created. In V8 the Capture folder is always created. It's just a folder so no problem if you don't use it.

    You don't have to import into a session although doing so can be set up to perform tasks for you - like file naming and applying some standard adjustments as part of the batch process along with creating previews and so on whilst you do something else for a while. For a large shoot this can be a useful time saver. For a few tens of images saving a few seconds the first time you open an image probably does not matter much.

    You should be able to open your previous session(s) and work as usual. However there is a new "engine" in V8 and to make use of that with previously edited images you may need to 'convert' the image to the new engine. (You can keep the old version as well if you make sure you follow the correct steps). This might suggest that it could be a good idea to create a new Session for V8 and leave your earlier sessions (you have not indicated which C1 version they might be) intact as they are. You can merge things later if you choose to do so.

    It is normally possible to have both old and new versions of C1 installed at the same time - but not to have both in use at the same time. However if you have already upgraded and overwritten the previous version as part of that process you might not consider the re-installation effort worthwhile.

    I hope this helps in some way.

    If you don't see an option to add a new session or open an old one then let us know what you do see and it may be possible to work out what is happening from there.


    Grant
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  • Greg14
    I appreciate this post, I purchased this software and was planing on starting it at the first of the year.
    I have Aperture.
    While I have some issues with the adjustments, I find the uploading to be frustrating at minimum and I still have not converted.
    I set up, so I thought, 2 sessions, Town 2015 and family 2015, but when I upload they go wherever they feel like going.
    I click on the folder, either : Town 2015 and family 2015, on the left side, but they go into other folders in my hard drive.
    What I have to do is open the "whatever' and drag and drop it to the sessions folder on the left side.

    I know I am doing something wrong but why is it so convoluted to download.
    Aperture the folders on right in front of you on the left side, just highlight the folder and the camera uploads to it.
    That is another thing that is different then Aperture in that I cannot download from the camera, it has to be a card reader.
    I am not a big fan of removing the SD cards unnecessarily.
    Sorry to vent,
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  • Ian Wilson
    Greg

    I'm not quite sure I understand what you are doing. But I get that you have two sessions, Town 2015 and Family 2015.

    Let's say you have some "family" images you want to import.

    (1) Open Capture One.

    (2) If the most recent session you used was "Family 2015" then that is the session that C1 will open in. If "Town 2015" was your most recent session, then you will need to open the "Family 2015" session instead. There are two ways (a) Pick "Family 2015" from the drop down list at the top of the Library tab, or (b) find the session file, called something like "Family 2015.cosessiondb", in your file system and double click it.

    (NOTE: there is an option in C1 to open sessions in a new window, which means you can if you like have more than one session open at once. I tend not to do that - I have sometimes ended up importing images into more than one session at once, not what I intended.)

    (3) Stick your card into the card reader.* C1 should open its import dialog and you can select to import all or some of the images. They will go into whatever is set as the capture folder for that session. By default that would be

    Family 2015\Capture

    and that suits me fine, but you can set it to wherever you like.

    *If you prefer, you can connect the camera to the computer and import the files, and then open C1 and use the Import button to get them from wherever you've put them in the file system, but I see no advantage in that.

    Does that help?

    Ian
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  • SFA
    Greg,

    I follow the path that Ian has described.

    I know from my early experiences with C1 (Version 5 briefly and then 6 before catalogues arrived) that it is worth taking a little time to get a feel for what C1 is offering for sessions. It's a very open and flexible structure structure should you want it to be but easily tamed once you know you can and should manage it for your own requirements (rather than have it manage you!).

    For what it's worth I always take cards out of the camera to import. For one thing the external readers are usually much faster than the direct camera connections. It may not matter of you have a handful of shots for a day but if one has filled several cards and used two or three cameras there is no point in working with the camera connection.

    I don't recall having any problems with cards due to frequent removal and replacement. However it's best if a modicum of care is used and brute force is avoided. SD cards should be especially resilient in that respect but my CF cards have been OK too.

    Have you seen the video about managing a C1 V8 Session?

    http://www.phaseone.com/Imaging-Softwar ... rials.aspx

    "Managing a Capture One Session".

    The first 3 minutes of so are probably of the most help for your questions - the later details are probably best revisited once you are comfortable with the basics.

    There are a couple of useful details that have not been mentioned in the video. Perhaps the most useful is the white arrow pointing right next to the "Store Folders" box in the "Import To" section. If you click on the arrow it will take you into the system file explorer showing you where imported files will be located. If it is not where you are expecting them to go you can to specify somewhere different.

    Bear in mind that you can, of you wish, put the files in a folder anywhere on the system. However it is usually more useful to keep thing in the overall session folder structure as it makes it much easier to move the entire session for archiving when required.

    HTH.

    Grant
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  • Bertho Boman
    Update & work-around.
    Quick review:
    I have pre-imported, renamed NEFs in folders named for example, "2015-01-26 Model Diana".
    In previous versions I could just tell C1 the name of the existing folder and it would import the NEFs and place the previews and setting files in the same folder. I am trying to achieve that with the latest C1 and it is very frustrating. I might be missing something.

    Work-around and problems:
    First, which is not obvious, a "session" is a fancy name for a folder. Unfortunately, in the new session box one can not simply select an existing folder like normally done with a file manager. The folder name has to be typed.

    OK, so I typed in the name of my folder "2015-01-26 Model Diana" and it accepted it and created the sub-folders.
    Unfortunately C1 did not understand that there are already NEFs in that folder. So I clicked on the Import images and pointed C1 to the "2015-01-26 Model Diana" folder and it imported the images by creating a new copy of each NEF renamed as old name-1. After importing the duplicates it then decided to recognizance the original ones too. What a mess!!

    There might be a trick to tell C1 to look for existing NEFs in the folder as it automatically did in previous versions.

    New work-around:
    Rename "2015-01-26 Model Diana" to "2015-01-26 Model Diana-OLD".
    Create a new session "2015-01-26 Model Diana"
    Import NEFs from "2015-01-26 Model Diana-OLD"
    Delete "2015-01-26 Model Diana" folder

    If the New Session box just had an option to select an existing folder none of these headaches would be necessary.

    As a programmer I learned a long time ago when creating new or different options to keep old ones available to users since there are always someone that likes the old way or are using them in in ways unknown to programmers.

    What am I missing to improve my work-around?
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  • SFA
    Bertho,

    The basic use of Sessions has changed very little since version 5. How far back does your C1 expectation go? Maybe earlier versions I did not use had something different?

    As I understand it you have imported your files for card to a disk but not using C1. File names are OK for you purpose and you have a folder structure in place.

    The Session is a set of structured folder - use optional - and a session file that is a database that links everything together. (More than just a fancy folder).

    With the image files already on disk and named you have 2 options.

    First option.

    Use the Library tool to navigate to the SYSTEM folder you wish to add to the session and click on it. Probably best to make sure it is set as a favourite. You have to do this for each folder that contains images that you want to associate with the session but, if that is then set as a session favourite, you only have to do that once per folder.

    If you named the session the same as the your grouping folder when you uploaded the files the folder structure should be much the same as you already created.

    The files will remain where they were on your disk.



    Second Option.

    Use the IMPORT process.

    You have already named the files so that part of the Import tool can be ignored.

    If you want retain the same folder structure you will need to import each folder individually. (Bear in mind that the Import routine is probably mostly geared to copying directly from a memory card without an existing folder structure.)

    Import will them import the files to the folder name you provide. If importing from files already on you disk that might be a bit unnecessary but the choice is yours and sometimes I use the 'from disk' approach.

    If importing I would NOT normally create a folder structure in advance but use the Import process to do that. However if I have created the folder structure in advance it is a matter of choosing the pre-created folder to import to.

    Or, for a different approach using Import, simply import everything to a single folder (use the "Capture" folder for example in V8) and then use the "Move to Select Folder" functionality to distribute the files to the folder you want them to be in. Obviously this would make better logical sense if they are coming directly from a card or a single folder "dump" area on disk rather than from a location where you have already done that work.




    My feeling is that your would be best served by NOT using Import UNLESS you change your approach and see if you can use Import to to the things you currently do before opening the files in Capture One.

    I have to admit that I had similar concerns when I first started to use C1 - it was a little confusing because I just dived in and made assumptions. But when I stood back and took some time to think through what was on offer and how I could make best use of it things became clearer and the whole process easier using Import from the start and taking the files directly off a memory card.


    HTH.



    Grant
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  • Bertho Boman
    Hello Grant,
    I really appreciate that you are taking lots of time to provide a detailed answer. The response on this forum is great by other people too.
    As for revision levels, I have been using C1 since 2003, so 12 years ago it was probably version 2.

    As far as I remember the current problems only started with version 8 forcing a choice of catalog or session. In all previous versions I could just select an existing NEF input folder and it automatically would recognize the NEFs and create the previews. I would then select or create an output folder and I could edit/convert the NEFs without any further issues.

    It almost looks like something is broken. If I create a session with the folder name of the existing NEF folder as I mentioned in the previous post, it fails to understand that there are already NEFs in the folder. Previous versions have automatically recognized them.

    Regardless, I will experiment with your suggestions.

    Maybe I also will try to fool C1 and tell it to import NEFs from an empty folder and then it might afterwards find all the existing NEFs.
    Thanks again for your help.
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  • SFA
    Hi Bertho,

    Catalog functionality was introduced with version 7 and did not interfere with Session setup at that time.

    V8 sessions are slightly different to V7 but, as far as I know, only in the change to a single "version" of the session creation whereby the option to specify whether the session was for a Capture (tethered) session or not has been removed. As far as I know the only difference previously was whether or not C1 created a "Capture" folder as part of its default folder set for the session. Now it always creates the "Capture" folder which is simpler and an extra folder is not problematic in my opinion.

    It is possible that his change has affected some part of the process that you previously relied upon but I can't be sure as I don't recall setting up sessions in the way you describe. I usually import directly from a card or an external disk location if I have been shooting in large volumes when travelling.

    If you have set up the session using the pre-existing folder that contains the images you want to work with you should be able to get to them by clicking on the + symbol for the "Session Favourites" section of the Library tool then select the folder containing the images. Or just navigate to the folder wherever it is and start working on them.


    HTH


    Grant
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  • Bertho Boman
    Update:
    In advance create a dummy folder and place an old NEF in in that folder. This has to be done only once and can be reused in the future.
    Start C1 and with an existing folder with NEFs create a new session with the new session name being exactly the folder name and path.
    The sub-folders will be created as expected but unfortunately C1 will not "see" the existing NEFs in the folder.
    Select "import images" and select the dummy folder with the dummy NEF. Import it.
    It will be imported as expected and all of a sudden C1 "discovers" all the existing NEFs.
    Delete the dummy NEF.

    The basic problem is that C1 does not automatically look for existing NEFs in the session folder like previous versions did.

    By the way, the session input box ought to allow a file manger selection of the output folder to either use an existing folder or to create a new one. Not everyone wants the output images in the same file as the input folder.
    It can of course be changed afterwards from the menu options but that option ought to be in the session creation box
    Bertho
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  • Morton
    Bertho:

    I've been going through pretty much the same process as you did, and arrived at pretty much the same workflow/workaround. Now, for the time being, I'm exploring the catalogue, as it seems more robust under v8 than v7. The main reason being the need to revisit files from a previous shoot when I want to match photos from a new client shoot with the ones from an older one - I then need to copy the old settings over, which can be a pain when things are spread across sessions.

    For the life of me I can't understand why C1 have to make something that should be really simple - opening and process files - so difficult. I wish they could simply let people manage their files whichever way they prefer to using the Finder, Pathfinder or whichever Finder/explorer substitute of their choice. The catalogue philosophy of both C1 and Lightroom is basically flawed as it assumes a "one size fits all" approach to RAW conversion; whereas most professional photographers I know depend on a mix of Photoshop/Bridge/ACR, Lightroom and C1 to do their work. Which means most photographers already have their own hierarchical file system. Rather than having to force C1 to accept my folder system by jumping through hoops to trick it into believeing what it is seeing is a session rather than MY folder system, it should be as easy as dragging a folder onto the C1 icon and voilá - there it is, photos ready to process. This painful approach is the only reason I use Bridge/ACR as often as I do - simply for easy of access if I only need to supply a file or two to a client quickly. I simply can't be bothered to jump through all the neccessary hoops to get those two files into C1.

    My final issue with C1 is how to preserve photo settings - yes, you can pack files as EIP, to preserve all settings with the files, similar to Adobe's XMP, but when packed as EIP, the files become inacessible to all other software. And EIP's have become unavailable when choosing the catalogue approach. The assumption that catalogues are the best way to deal with large amounts of data may be true to some extent, but it seems like both Adobe and C1 have overlooked the fact that with todays data consumption rates files don't stay on the main working disk for very long. They live on the main drive long enough to get the job done, then they need to go to storage on external RAIDS or similar. My main reason not to use C1 or Lightroom to manage the moving of large amounts of files is simply the fact that moving using the database tools take a lot longer, so very often I just need to offload the disk quickly. That leaves me with a lot of disconnected folders that I simply can't be bothered to reconnect at a later stage. Life's too short. So for me to adobt catalogues means that C1 and/or Adobe needs to find better ways of intelligently reconnecting disconnected folders - and/or make it possible to sync photo settings back to the files so settings always stay with the files like with the EIPs, so you can access the same settings later when you need them. Without having to go jump through all the hoops (tricking C1 into believing you are actaully accessing a session that is really just a pre-existing file hierarchy that is force-fed C1 for no other good reason but necessity.)
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  • Cal
    mbrakes / Bertho:

    "For the life of me I can't understand why C1 have to make something that should be really simple - opening and process files - so difficult." Amen! I installed the 30-day test of C1-6 and almost abandoned C1 when I ran into the file handling imposition. I now have C1-8 because the RAW converter is just sooo creamy. But I work with my own catalog/session work around and wonder why the continued insistence when the No. 1 most repeated form topic is the file handling. Photographers are creative by their very nature and really really want to do things their own way - its called creativity. Inflicting this system upon me feels just so disrespectful. Maybe if I did tethered studio advertising work I could appreciate the imposed workflow but I don't, I shoot landscapes and wild life.

    My work around: I import from my camera chip to a "fast" viewer which renames and puts my images in a folder system that works for my head. I then delete, tag and create a catalogue for each folder and import the images into the catalogue. (At this point I go and have a large mug of tea and do my email while this takes place.) To work on an image, I highlight the image that I want to process, note the file name, look it up in C1 to open it, do the great things that I can do in C1, then export to PS to finish. I don't bring the image back to C1.

    Is it really so difficult to add an option to open a single file in C1? In a perfect world I would substitute C1 for Camera RAW like PhotoNinja allows for. Simple, convenient and respectful.

    Cal
    (Windows 7-64 with a fast CPU, lots of RAM and large RAIDs)
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  • Tad
    Cal

    I couldn't agree more. I too have my own file system...simple and does the job.
    I deliberately stay away from Capture One and Lightroom just because they want to impose their file system on me. I don't need 'Collections', 'Catalogs', or 'Libraries'.

    Phase One.....PLEASE give us the option of just Opening a file, using the wonderful tools of Capture One, and Saving the file where we want, without being forced to use your complicated 'Catalogs', etc.
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  • Ian Wilson
    I have to admit that I don't really get this discussion. If you want to (at least on a Mac) you can right click an image file anywhere you like and select to Open with Capture One. It opens Capture One and loads the image. (Capture One opens in the most recently used session. If you have not created any sessions of your own, it opens in the default "Capture One Session". I know this works - I just tried it right-clicking an NEF raw file.)

    So far so good. But if you want to make adjustments to the image, Capture One has to store them somewhere. One of the very important features of Capture One is that it NEVER changes the original image file, but it stores your adjustments in a separate file, and that has to go somewhere. Also if you want to get output from the app, say as a TIFF or a JPG file, that has to go somewhere and you will have to specify where you want it to go by either accepting the current output folder, or designating some other location as your output folder.

    Nothing in the app is forcing you to use any Collections, Catalogs or Libraries. You can put files wherever you want to (but Capture One will need to create subfolders in which it can place its settings files, the ones that remember the adjustments you have made to your image.)

    So if you really want to "just open and process a file" you can, but you may end up with a messy lot of subfolders and be forever changing the output folder to get your output TIFFs, JPGs etc where you want them. I really can't see how you think that Capture One is making something difficult that should be simple, and I rather think that by being unwilling to try the session approach (with everything in one single session if you insist) you are rejecting the use of a workable and elegant system of organising and storing the files that the app needs to work with.

    Ian
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  • Paul Steunebrink
    Tad wrote:
    Cal

    I couldn't agree more. I too have my own file system...simple and does the job.
    I deliberately stay away from Capture One and Lightroom just because they want to impose their file system on me. I don't need 'Collections', 'Catalogs', or 'Libraries'.

    Phase One.....PLEASE give us the option of just Opening a file, using the wonderful tools of Capture One, and Saving the file where we want, without being forced to use your complicated 'Catalogs', etc.

    Please reference my reply to your similar post in the CO8 Windows forum.

    The bottom line is that CO Pro 8 gives you the freedom to browse by folder, without forcing any asset management or import on you. It is really a non-issue although I understand the confusion for new users.
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  • dee jjjaaaa
    Tad wrote:
    So if you really want to "just open and process a file" you can, but you may end up with a messy lot of subfolders and be forever changing the output folder to get your output TIFFs, JPGs etc where you want them. I really can't see how you think that Capture One is making something difficult that should be simple, and I rather think that by being unwilling to try the session approach (with everything in one single session if you insist) you are rejecting the use of a workable and elegant system of organising and storing the files that the app needs to work with.


    somehow ACR or a lot of other "non DAM" raw converters with a marketshare way bigger than C1 (for example ISL's SilkyPix, which in its various incaranations is an OEM converter for many camera manufacturers) out there do manage to do this w/o hassle... once you (the customer) want the old way to work with raws (consider that it is an intentional decision, we are not all imbeciles unware about other ways like you want to think) then the approach with the need to still think about some session (instead of C1 doing all the work the behind the scenes in such mode) is anything but "elegant"... note that nobody is against C1 having "sessions" and "catalogs" for those customers who want them, but the attitude of some of those towards us who just want to click-convert-close (like it used to be possible way back) is rather bad... consider that you do not have any monopoly to know what is better for others.
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  • Ian Wilson
    Well as I said (me not Tad, in fact) you can just click convert and close, but if you do, where will the sidecar files etc go?

    Ian
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  • Peter Jones
    Hi

    When I first used C1 I ran into all the complications described in this thread. It took several Forum exchanges for me to realise that C1 does not have to be used in the official strait jacket mode, with folders being created all over the place (or so it seemed at the time). At some point, following exchanges with Phase, I suggested the "Prof" could do a tutorial to explain how to use one overarching Session for all C1 work and simply process image files using the pre-existing Windows folder system.

    As far as I know all sidecar files are kept in a folder called CaptureOne. I used to have one folder per image, suitably labelled, for which C1 produced one CaptureOne file within this folder. All nice and tidy and easy to refer back to. Simple.

    Why Phase seems to want to maintain a mystique about folder management I do not know. I am amazed that Phase is allowing this kind of thread to develop yet again. It needs sorting out once and for all.

    HTH

    Peter
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  • Paul Steunebrink
    Peter,

    I can follow your logic. I was one of the thoughts behind my blog on this, to get the simplicity back where is belongs: you and your computer with images.

    Hopefully I succeeded more or less in this attempt.
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