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Crop Ratios

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17 comments

  • Stephen Wandzura

    I don't understand how a useful workflow would be impaired. Can you cite an example? After all, why would anybody change the ratio if they didn't want it changed? (If done by mistake, one can use Undo.) To me, if I change an adjustment parameter, I want to see the change immediately. As for the fixed point, defaulting to the center would seem reasonable. I would be very happy with a preference option to leave it up to the user, but can see no reason that it should be limited to moving. How is moving fundamentally different than resizing?

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  • Stephen Wandzura

    I still don't get it. When you change the ratio, it only applies to the primary selected picture (even if "Edit Selected" is active) - the one you can see. It won't be changing "itself" - YOU will be changing it, and you shouldn't have to take an extra step to do so. What am I missing? Why would one be changing the ratio if one didn't want to change it? Maybe you could post a short video of the segment of your workflow that would be disrupted if ratios were applied immediately?

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  • SFA

    C1 provides for past edits back to V7 and still supports the V7 and later processing engines as far as possible.

    Not much help, of course, if the Major OS manufacturers keep taking support away for features that were used back in those times as happens quite regularly, ostensibly for the delivery of "improved" products but that is an argument that I have rarely found completely convincing even in the claim let alone the results.

    The problem, of course, is that support the old processing engines even when using updates Catalogies and Sessions has to have some limitations. Multiple differently functioning versions of some older versions of current slightly modified tools my not be techniocally achievable, is almost certainly not cost justifiable and would like hardly ever be used.

    However the latest licenses do allow use of older versions and old version of C1 are available for download.  So if one has a desperate need to reprocess an old image just as it was processed back as far as V7, then that possibility exists.

    I still have examples of all versions of C1 back to 7.2 on my system. Just in case. I rarely actually use any of them early than the previous versions and then usually only to compare for possible differences.

    If I need to do something with old files I will most likely re-process them anyway - for better results.

    As I use sessions the edit instructions for old and new versions co-exist and do not interfere with each other - as can also be said for system settings. In recent times we see more and more things that are retained for historic purposes. Almost like a C1 museum as far as the files and folder in my system is concerned!

     

    For Version 6, 32bit, I would have to revert to an older machine - replaced when things went 64bit only. (Not just C1 in that case ...)

    It may also help me that, at least until now, I have been running Windows 7. That may become a forced change soon. Apple style.

     

    Grant

     

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  • SFA

    Stephen,

    Windows seems to be following Apple's principles these "agile" days.

    In olden times the need to ship software updates on stacks of disks (or tapes) complete with printed Manuals all in boxes tended to focus people's attention and limit their aims.

    Agile worlds and "over the air" updates that don't take hours or days to download have enabled a different mind set. An extention of the old meme about fixing hardware problems in software. Now there is a meme that the camera manufacturers - especially the lens designers - have taken to heart in the digital world!

    Both of the the above mentioned companies seem more than willing to shovel some questionable decisions about core OS software down the digital pipe and expect the software application developers at the sharp end to waste many hours of their time finding ways to circumvent the challenges they OS changes have created.

    They are also masters of planned obsolescence - very much required to keep the market moving since typical computing power at an affordable price from about 10 years ago seems quite capable of keeping up with the needs (but maybe not he desires) of today.

    Even more evident in the phones/tablet market and all that follows in its wake. Like, presumably, Aperture decisions.

     

    By the way, as well as Ian's double tap tip there is also the instant draw a new crop option. Shift key and click on a starting point at a corner and the currently selected ratio will be applied.

     

    I will confess that I tend to work mainly in Unconstrained mode so the nuances of working with fixed ratio formats may have passed me by.

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  • Stephen Wandzura

    I hate Photoshop and Lightroom, because the Adobe UI is so alien to me. It is ironic, because Adobe was real big in the early Mac days (1984 ... ).

    I am very grateful to have C1. I am learning slowly, but I expect eventually to get as efficient as I was with Aperture. I am also grateful to all you Community folk who are helping me along.

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  • Mihael Tominsek

    It was great stuff in 1984 - than they started to earn on it and forgot to develop. Last nail for me was subscription. I still must have it for other apps, but I paid for perpetual C1 and never opened Lr since than. 

    I compared two large wedding projects in 2018 where one I finished in Lr and other as complete noob in C1. Than averaged time spent for each to my yearly amount of work and calculated than C1 saved me 14 full work days per year! I started to fell joy again in editing. Lr advocates say C1 image is overcooked, they prefer flat image. Hey, It's not flat out of Lr either, but in fact, C1 is there out of the box I would edit anyway. So only save my time. I saw myself hated family shots on vacation since I sit all evening behind computers and kids went sleep before I would shuffle all those sliders in Lr to shot hem daily selection. While in C1 I mostly just export with few EV correction here and there. Done. And no lagging of whatsoever. Well made investment!   

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  • Ian Wilson
    Moderator
    Top Commenter

    I also don't want existing crops to change themselves just because the ratio has been changed. But if you do want a crop to be changed to reflect the changed ratio, all you have to do is double-click inside the crop. It's a bit unpredictable, though as Grant ("SFA") suggests - I'm never sure where it will anchor the new ratio, so I end up dragging it around anyway.

    Ian

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  • Stephen Wandzura

    BTW - I didn't know about the double click method. Thank you. It is almost as good as what I want.

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  • Stephen Wandzura

    As a general issue of software design, the question of how much or long to maintain backward compatibility is perennial and nontrivial. For example, I don't think Apple tries hard enough. There are other cases in my experience in which I thought the maintenance of backward compatibility was pedantic. Reasonable people will differ.

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  • Stephen Wandzura

    I am an Aperture (talk about no backward compatibility 😡) refugee and have recently started with C1 20, and making slow progress. At least I never felt the Aperture upgrades were actually downgrades...

    Make sure you know into what you would be getting with a Mac. I have been using one for 35 year. For most of that time, I was very happy with the OS. However I think that after Jobs died, things rapidly went downhill. Many (former) Mac aficionados agree with me that OS X reached its peak with Snow Leopard. Starting with Lion, Apple progressively tried to make the Mac more like an iPhone - which was probably the motivation for dumping the very good apps iPhoto and Aperture for the "POS" Photos. Coincidently (probably not) Lion was the first OS released after Jobs' death. 

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  • Stephen Wandzura

    Ian - I sit corrected!

    Sorry.

    Changing the Crop aspect ratio can change it on other than the primary selection, so I can see your point. I think it would be better to change only the primary selection, but I can see how that might frustrate experienced users such as yourself. The double-click feature you taught me is an acceptable solution to my problem. Thanks again.

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  • Stephen Wandzura

    Aha! It is not so simple. It depends on whether [Edit Selected] is on. Not only that, but I think the way it behaves is the opposite of what I would expect. I think I should just make a habit of staying with Selected on.

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  • Mihael Tominsek

    SHIF/ALT only works in unconstrained.Shift should work on all ratios - so let say 1:1 ratio is selected and you have 16:9 image needing to tighten crop a bit. You need to switch to unconstrained, than using ALT (or SHIFT) to change it. Touching it with 1:1 will throw crop away and that is wrong. They only implemented SHIFT as locking ratio in unconstrained mode (it is already locked in locked ratio modes, so no shift needed - only ALT for centre adjustment). SHIFT should also work as "ratio preserver" in other crop ratios regardless of what is set. If SHIFT is used, 1:1 crop mode should adjust 16:9 ratio without adjusting ratio. Changing ration only when start resizing is clueless. I can't see reason for it. 

    1) Backward compatibility: I hate Photoshop since it drags 1990's design limitations to 2020. That makes Adobe's software overcomplicated with all sorts of "hacks" and "workarounds" they implemented till now. But at the same time I hate Premiere Pro Since they change workflow in every version a bit and probably to worse. Adobe is hard to figure and easy to forget if not used daily. For those comming from there C1 is odd one, but in fact they were are much used to odd Adobe that they find C1 strange and lacking.

    2) crop tool was wastly improved at last. It needs final touc to FINALLY allow key-shortcuts to be assigned to individual modes, to chhange rations quickly. Sometimes I WANT to quickly test different ratios from my current crop. I can do it by righht clicking to image, selecting desired ratio and double-clicking inside the crop. Fine, but WHY 3 steps?

    If I want and when I want to change ratios is for reason that I want to change it and I want to see it. I perfectly understand that Keytone tool needs APPLY button, because we do not want "impossible-to-work-with-laggy" Lightroom in their equivalent tool where engine constantly try to catchh up my moves of nodes. I run from Adobe to C1 fo that. But crop I want to see without
    added step. If C1 would be from Microsoft, they would even add "Are you shure?" dialog! Until we have UNDO, I disable all suc dialogs. And I really suggest to any PROuser to use "AutoHotkey" and assign "CTRL+Z" macro to F1 key. You'll be thanking me forever how much that improves any pro work on computer.

    Ratio is chhanged in center. I need it instantly. If I do not like it, I put it back to previous ratio and nothing is changed. If you had custom ratio, you use undo (or I just press F1). What is different if crop changes on double click or instantly? Changing crop ratio when resized is the wierdest thing ever in software crop history. It jumps suddenly to unpredicted way. Let say I last edited 1:1 image. Week later I edit another set and use C, to correct it and forget to ceck ratio and crop blows out of imagination, completelly ruined frame. It might also change orientation. OK, I have undo. Than go to crop tool and manually set it to unconstrained since I do not know what ratio that image had set, hold ALT and crop will adjust from center. Fine.

    Crop tool not having keys assignable always demand to long press icon or right click on image to change it. I would love to have unconstrained crop and other crops with assignable dedicated keys like for brushes.

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  • Stephen Wandzura

    I was happy with Aperture for fifteen years. I think I can eventually be as efficient with C1. [I think there is something to be said for paying particular attention to feature requests from new adopters.] My meager experience with Adobe apps had me pulling my hair out - which I can ill afford.

    But back to the topic: I think the difference in philosophy between C1 and me (& Aperture) is that the set crop ratio should apply to the image, not the tool! The fact that one can change the tool for a particular image and have it affect other cropped images seems downright looney 🤪 to me. This "feature" is (IMnsHO) so bad that I would vote for sacrificing backward compatibility to fix it. But I am always OK with letting it be a Preference of the user.

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  • Ian Wilson
    Moderator
    Top Commenter

    And I think that the thing is what you are used to. When I use the crop tool in other apps, I find it awkward that it is not like Capture One! (For instance in Affinity, it always starts on unconstrained and catches me out when I expect it to respect the existing ratio.)

    Ian

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  • Stephen Wandzura

    Yes - I agree completely. I would not want any changes to be made to C1 that would inconvenience experienced users. But sometimes people migrating to C1 might be helped with "improvements" that don't do that. The changes might even provide an appreciated capability to existing users. In this case, I think the double-click technique that you taught me makes things workable. I am still alarmed that ratio adjustments in the tool can affect photos other the the selected one. Do you agree that a preference to defeat that "feature" should not be controversial?

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  • SFA

    That could be really annoying, in my opinion.

    Better to deploy the change, as now, when you actually make a change to the crop. (There are a number of reasons why one might not want an instant change just because the ratio has been changed.)

    Secondly  - from which fixed point should the new ratio be anchored?

    I might give you the "even if you move it" comment but only if there was a user preference option so that long time users were not suddenly faced with enforced changes of functionality for no good (to them) reason.

    I mention that based on user response to a couple of other requested changes over the years that did not go down well with people making effective use of a workflow designed around the original way of doing things.

     

    Grant

     

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