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Aperture fading, but too many files for C1?

mattcohen
I have used Aperture since it was released, but I think my main library is now too big (130k pictures, something like 5TB on a big RAID 0. It's usable, but noticeably slower than even last year. I have done all of my final edits in C1 since version 10, and would like to not only continue using C1, but also move to it exclusively.

I am trying to figure out what is possible given the hardware i have (2016 MBP with Touch Bar, 2.7 I7, 16GB RAM, AMD Radeon Pro 455, Open GL is on for C1, 4-bay Thunderbolt RAID 0) and the needs of my business (I absolutely must be able to search all pictures at once and directly work with the files found, total dealbreaker if I can't).

As a test, I exported my 2018 folder as an Aperture library onto a 2-drive SSD RAID. I made a new C1 catalog and imported the Aperture library and let that grind away while I was away. Today I went in and tried to use it as I would, and I got a lot of beachballing, even with only 1/4 of the pictures of my full library. I know about the "all pictures" thing, I wasn't doing that (although this is totally ridiculous).

What is making this slow in C1, and what part of my hardware is that hitting? I can't get much faster speed than the SSD RAID, but I could get a computer with an I9 or 32GB RAM etc.

Is the Aperture library structure something that permanently slows things down? Would I see a significant improvement discarding edits etc and importing folders full of originals into C1?

Is 130k RAW files just too many or is 5TB just too big for C1 to handle on laptops and I'm just trying to fit a square peg in a round hole? I shoot sports, basically every day, so that 130k grows all the time.

Thanks for any help
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Comments

22 comments

Date Votes
  • Robert Farhi
    The C1 catalog and "All images" is not as good, by far, as LR's one. And I'm afraid 130k pictures would be too hard to swallow for it.
    I would suggest to use C1 as developer, and it is very good at that, and a third part DAM software strong enough to ingest and manage your pictures. PhotoMechanics, MediaPro are two of them, but there are others.
    The configuration of your computer suits perfectly for C1 to work in good conditions as a developer, and for albums, projects, groups if needed.
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  • Ian Wilson
    Moderator
    Top Commenter
    [quote="tenmangu81" wrote:
    I would suggest to use C1 as developer, and it is very good at that, and a third part DAM software strong enough to ingest and manage your pictures. PhotoMechanics, MediaPro are two of them, but there are others.
    The configuration of your computer suits perfectly for C1 to work in good conditions as a developer, and for albums, projects, groups if needed.

    Media Pro works will with Capture One files BUT ONLY THOSE IN SESSIONS NOT CATALOGS. It can only have a maximum of 128,000 images in a catalog, BUT THE GOOD NEWS IS it can search more than one catalog, even without opening them all.

    Ian
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  • mattcohen
    [quote="tenmangu81" wrote:
    The C1 catalog and "All images" is not as good, by far, as LR's one


    or Aperture's, a program that has been dead for more than 4 years. it seems very strange that people have been complaining about this for as long as i have had C1.

    I don't consider Media Pro to be viable software. Photo Mechanic is probably the answer.
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  • Robert Edwards
    What Ian said.

    I don't consider Media Pro to be viable software. Photo Mechanic is probably the answer.

    Different application categories. Photo Mechanic is a media browser like Adobe Bridge. Media Pro is a database cataloguing program like C1, Aperture, LR, Portfolio, Cumulus, FotoStation, etc. For searching you want a database, either local or cloud based.

    Unfortunately for photographers traditional, robust cataloguing features have either stagnated or gone backwards in the last decade. The emphasis now is more on raw image processing, UI, output, sharing, AI and cloud storage. Media Pro is a mature database program that connects with C1.

    Caveat: while Phase One recently said they are continuing to develop Media Pro it's no longer featured on their website.
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  • Robert Edwards
    [quote="Ian3" wrote:
    It can only have a maximum of 128,000 images in a catalog,

    FWIW I have over 175 000 items in one Media Pro catalog. The catalog itself is over 8GB (on a Mac).
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  • Robert Farhi
    [quote="roberte" wrote:

    Caveat: while Phase One recently said they are continuing to develop Media Pro it's no longer featured on their website.


    Yes, it is:
    https://www.phaseone.com/MediaProSE
    Not so obvious to find it on their website indeed !!
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  • mattcohen
    [quote="roberte" wrote:
    What Ian said.

    I don't consider Media Pro to be viable software. Photo Mechanic is probably the answer.

    Different application categories. Photo Mechanic is a media browser like Adobe Bridge. Media Pro is a database cataloguing program like C1, Aperture, LR, Portfolio, Cumulus, FotoStation, etc. For searching you want a database, either local or cloud based.

    Unfortunately for photographers traditional, robust cataloguing features have either stagnated or gone backwards in the last decade. The emphasis now is more on raw image processing, UI, output, sharing, AI and cloud storage. Media Pro is a mature database program that connects with C1.

    Caveat: while Phase One recently said they are continuing to develop Media Pro it's no longer featured on their website.


    I tried Media Pro not all that long ago, and it wasn't even optimized for retina screens. Is this still the case?
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  • OddS.
    [quote="mattcohen" wrote:
    ...Photo Mechanic is probably the answer.


    Photo Mechanic is indeed a great tool for handling image files and metadata, but like Robert E. wrote: PM does not have an image catalog. And PM does not do raw file conversion and post processing.

    The next version of PM has been in the works for quite some time and will likely be released this year. Signals from Camera Bits indicate that the new PM version (version 6) will have a catalog. You may want to wait to see what PM v6 has to offer before you decide on your future system.
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  • mattcohen
    [quote="OddS" wrote:
    [quote="mattcohen" wrote:
    ...Photo Mechanic is probably the answer.


    Photo Mechanic is indeed a great tool for handling image files and metadata, but like Robert E. wrote: PM does not have an image catalog. And PM does not do raw file conversion and post processing.

    The next version of PM has been in the works for quite some time and will likely be released this year. Signals from Camera Bits indicate that the new PM version (version 6) will have a catalog. You may want to wait to see what PM v6 has to offer before you decide on your future system.


    right, at that point i'd use PM to tag and caption, and the finder to find pictures, and C1 to edit. not great but Aperture and C1 can not handle the size. i'd read about PM's catalog, but they've been talking about that for ~5 years.

    i downloaded the trial of Media Pro SE, and it's not 64 bit, nor is it retina quality. that's not viable software.
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  • Robert Edwards
    [quote="tenmangu81" wrote:
    Yes, it is:
    https://www.phaseone.com/MediaProSE
    Not so obvious to find it on their website indeed !!

    Thanks but that's not featured, that's hidden!
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  • Robert Edwards
    [quote="mattcohen" wrote:
    i'd read about PM's catalog, but they've been talking about that for ~5 years.

    Try 12 years. That said, PM is a great company with the best support and features for an image browser, which I'm sure you're aware of as a sports photographer.

    [quote="mattcohen" wrote:
    i downloaded the trial of Media Pro SE, and it's not 64 bit, nor is it retina quality. that's not viable software.

    Nope, but it still has 18 months until Apple pull the plug on 32 bit programs. Longer if you stick with macOS Mojave.

    If you want a radical alternative some photographers edit in C1 and use LR for DAM. The DAM side of LR still works even if you don't have a paid subscription to CC.
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  • OddS.
    [quote="mattcohen" wrote:
    ...i'd read about PM's catalog, but they've been talking about that for ~5 years.


    Talked about perhaps even longer, but the decision to really go for it was probably made 2012-ish.

    [quote="mattcohen" wrote:

    i downloaded the trial of Media Pro SE, and it's not 64 bit, nor is it retina quality. that's not viable software.


    One of my own preferences: the "DAM" (catalog) application shall not also be a raw file/post processing application. Lightroom and C1 catalogs do not fit my preference.

    I still do not quite need/want a catalog. In addition to the above preference of mine, Dough Peterson's article on Capture One's "Catalogs vs Sessions" serves as a reminder for me to re-think the rationale for wanting a catalog, see https://digitaltransitions.com/catalogs ... tle-times/

    Phase One's Media Pro software fits the bill. I tried it several years ago and concluded it was not made for me.

    If Camera Bits Inc. avoids the raw file/post processing trap with their upcoming Photo Mechanic version 6, I will indeed check out the catalog part to see if it works for me. If not, PM will still be my preferred front end and back end tool.
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  • mattcohen
    [quote="OddS" wrote:


    I still do not quite need/want a catalog. In addition to the above preference of mine, Dough Peterson's article on Capture One's "Catalogs vs Sessions" serves as a reminder for me to re-think the rationale for wanting a catalog, see https://digitaltransitions.com/catalogs ... tle-times/


    thanks for this. i don't as much care what the solution looks like as long as i can get back to work.
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  • mattcohen
    in case anyone is interested...

    i exported my 2018 folder (~30k D5 RAW) from Aperture as a new library and imported that into Mylio. it took about 5 hours to import. search/scrolling/etc is insanely fast. the editing quality and power is not in the same class as C1, and the metadata support/flexibility is not as good as PM or nearly enough for me, but i could probably caption/tag/rate in PM, pull the keepers into Mylio where i can organize/search/etc, and use C1 for final edits. not efficient but at least each of the programs can actually do what i would be using them for.
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  • Robert Edwards
    [quote="OddS" wrote:
    ...In addition to the above preference of mine, Dough Peterson's article on Capture One's "Catalogs vs Sessions" serves as a reminder for me to re-think the rationale for wanting a catalog, see https://digitaltransitions.com/catalogs ... tle-times/


    Catalogs, amongst many other things, are useful for those who want to:


    • find images fast

    • search across different criteria

    • check for missing images

    • verify image integrity

    • unify IPTC metadata

    • migrate images to new media

    • ensure the longevity of their work

    • admit that they are hoarders 😊


    FWIW Lightroom works differently and alleviates all Doug's concerns.
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  • Robert Edwards
    [quote="mattcohen" wrote:
    in case anyone is interested...
    i exported my 2018 folder (~30k D5 RAW) from Aperture as a new library and imported that into Mylio. it took about 5 hours to import. search/scrolling/etc is insanely fast.


    Thanks I'm keeping an eye on Mylio. It's one to watch but they seem to be designed for a private equity buyout. And to come full circle, David Vaskevitch, who is keen amateur photographer, was involved with Microsoft's acquisition of iView that is now Media Pro.
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  • mattcohen
    [quote="roberte" wrote:
    [quote="OddS" wrote:
    ...In addition to the above preference of mine, Dough Peterson's article on Capture One's "Catalogs vs Sessions" serves as a reminder for me to re-think the rationale for wanting a catalog, see https://digitaltransitions.com/catalogs ... tle-times/


    Catalogs, amongst many other things, are useful for those who want to:


    • find images fast

    • search across different criteria

    • check for missing images

    • verify image integrity

    • unify IPTC metadata

    • migrate images to new media

    • ensure the longevity of their work

    • admit that they are hoarders 😊


    FWIW Lightroom works differently and alleviates all Doug's concerns.


    yeah i can't see a way around having a catalog. it's just too many pictures and my clients don't care where the picture came from, they just want it yesterday. i have read many posts here that say lightroom slows down around where C1 does. is that not the consensus?

    [quote="roberte" wrote:
    [quote="mattcohen" wrote:
    in case anyone is interested...
    i exported my 2018 folder (~30k D5 RAW) from Aperture as a new library and imported that into Mylio. it took about 5 hours to import. search/scrolling/etc is insanely fast.


    Thanks I'm keeping an eye on Mylio. It's one to watch but they seem to be designed for a private equity buyout. And to come full circle, David Vaskevitch, who is keen amateur photographer, was involved with Microsoft's acquisition of iView that is now Media Pro.


    it's very close to something i could use, but the way it handles metadata (like zero flexibility on where fields are and which are shown) is unfortunately a deal breaker.

    today i figured out that if i regularly rebuild my aperture library database, it runs well enough to use. but then again it also takes over an hour to rebuild.
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  • Robert Edwards
    [quote="mattcohen" wrote:
    i have read many posts here that say lightroom slows down around where C1 does. is that not the consensus?

    With as many variables as there are photographers it's difficult to give an exact answer. My own experience is:

    • C1 feels faster when moving sliders and offers more granular control over raw processing but DAM is a low priority and their database hits a wall before LR.

    • LR is faster as a database and is better for DAM - but slows down on retina screens and when your image collection gets into the hundreds of thousands.

    • Apple seemed to have got Aperture right but we're no longer their market.
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  • mattcohen
    [quote="roberte" wrote:
    [quote="mattcohen" wrote:
    i have read many posts here that say lightroom slows down around where C1 does. is that not the consensus?

    With as many variables as there are photographers it's difficult to give an exact answer. My own experience is:

    • C1 feels faster when moving sliders and offers more granular control over raw processing but DAM is a low priority and their database hits a wall before LR.

    • LR is faster as a database and is better for DAM - but slows down on retina screens and when your image collection gets into the hundreds of thousands.

    • Apple seemed to have got Aperture right but we're no longer their market.


    thanks for that. C1 RAW processing is the best i've used by far. i think i'm going to write a script to have aperture rebuild my database every few days, that's made it usable again for me, at least as long as i'm going to just use that as my DAM.
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  • Eric Valk
    [quote="mattcohen" wrote:
    C1 RAW processing is the best i've used by far. i think i'm going to write a script to have aperture rebuild my database every few days, that's made it usable again for me, at least as long as i'm going to just use that as my DAM.

    There was an application called "Catapult", no longer sold, which made an easy transfer between Aperture and Capture One.
    Catapults idea was based on saving ".cos" file contents from a Capture One export in the "Other Tag" of an Aperture Image Variant. (The ".cos" file is an ascii coded file containing an XML structure located in CaptureOne/Settings110 )
    This now gets messed up by Capture Ones "Mask" feature, which adds another, larger, binary coded sidecar file for CO masks, which is too large for the "Other Tag"

    A better and simpler version could be now be written in AppleScript along the following lines.
    • Within a Capture One Catalog, each variant has a unique variant ID.

    • To link Aperture Images with the Capture One images, its only necessary to store the Capture One variant ID in the Aperture Image Version's "Other Tag"

    That leads to the following implementation:
    • When transferring an editted image from Capture One back to Aperture:
      • Export CO's variant and save it as a new Aperture Image Version
      • Save the CO Variant ID in the new Aperture Image Versions "Other Tag".

    • When transferring an image to be editted from Aperture to Capture One:
      • if there is no "Other Tag"
        • Export the Aperture Image Version and import it into CO
        • Save the new CO Variant ID in the Aperture Image Versions "Other Tag"
      • If there is an "Other Tag", use the variant ID in the "Other Tag" to select the variant in CO
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  • Robert Edwards
    Oh well, you can forget Media Pro it's now EOL: viewtopic.php?f=71&t=28855
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  • mattcohen
    in case anyone is following this, i split my main library into two parts (pre-2015 and 2015-current) and both are below 100k pictures and Aperture is running far better.
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