Where to, now?
So with Media Pro SE killed and all that lacks on C1 as a DAM where are you all going to? I know, Media Pro is still working, but it just seems unwise to keep using it (even though I am still using MS Expression Media eventually!). I was an Lightroom subscriber, but cancelled it the moment they've increased the subscription costs (I live in Brazil, they've basically doubled the subscription price on 2017. Worst: the price for old subscribers, like me, was higher than the price for new subscribers!). Anyway, what company currently deserves my ~US$200 for a really good DAM? I'm not looking for anything else but a DAM.
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[quote="C-F" wrote:
automatic read/write - not true according to their documentation and tutorial videos...
Than ask and talk with developer - is not recommended.
Remove XMP files and try to create they from IMatch database
Delete IMatch database and try to recreate from XMP files
Import new Images with XMP files - why wont IMatch rewrite all XMP files?
IMatch is very powerful software with many edges are some NoGo for me. Maybe I just couldn't handle it. But the developer couldn't explain anything plausible to me. Always came - C1 is crap, MP is crap, PSU is crap. Everything I do is great. And even when I found BUG in Exiftool, C1 was crap.
But - try and buy it and be happy with it - really.0 -
[quote="RobiWan" wrote:
[quote="C-F" wrote:
automatic read/write - not true according to their documentation and tutorial videos...
Than ask and talk with developer - is not recommended.
Remove XMP files and try to create they from IMatch database
Delete IMatch database and try to recreate from XMP files
Import new Images with XMP files - why wont IMatch rewrite all XMP files?
IMatch is very powerful software with many edges are some NoGo for me. Maybe I just couldn't handle it. But the developer couldn't explain anything plausible to me. Always came - C1 is crap, MP is crap, PSU is crap. Everything I do is great. And even when I found BUG in Exiftool, C1 was crap.
But - try and buy it and be happy with it - really.
Lol,
I DID 'talk' (email) to Mario and frankly he was very honest and upfront about my questions and concerns AND less than 12hrs in response time!
Funny thing is, what you describe as your experience with them was exactly my experience with Herb from PSU...
/sarcasm on: Maybe it is a 'German attitude thing' /sarcasm off - however, the nice part is, we all have our bucket of experiences and are able to share them in a situation that calls for some profound, future oriented decision making in our current state of virtual asset management.
ps, if I recall correctly, you yourself stated that C1 cataloging was completely unsuitable to your needs hence made you switch to PSU... - glad to hear that about ¾ of a year later it seems to fit your needs which puts you ahead of us that are still 'struggling' of what and how to do...0 -
IanL wrote,
That certainly would be nice. But someone published a list of features they needed in C1 and non of them were things that I think are a priority for C1. So, I feel certain that few if anyone would be totally satisfied. 😊
I do hope that progress is made. Actually since there has been no announcement at all about future C1 features I actually hope that version 12 actually focuses on catalogue features.
Exactly my thoughts, and to take it a step further, that also implies that for the 'classic' C1 user (sessions, tethering, RAW converter) it will be an upgrade to pass as long as there is no change in ones respective photographic hardware needing the possible added support currently not in C1....
This is all speculation though and we will have to wait and see what actually will happen0 -
Ian 3
I don't understand how you think the argument is ill-founded. I paid 230€ only in last Februay 2017. If Phase One was then finantially wise to charge for another update, then this update should have lasted much more than 1 year and a half.
But I'm sure by February 2017, they new it wouldn't last which, if they were morally able, should be enough for them not to charge for another Update which, let me also remind, didn't even work in the new MacOSes...
Instead, it forced a lot of users to stick to older MacOSes. Ian, either you have a product really working or you shouldn't be charging for it... and now they advise a migration to CO and they charge even more for it ???
My friend, are talking serious ?? Hope not 😊))0 -
Well good luck in court. I don’t think you would succeed!
Ian0 -
I agree with Ian3 that it would be hard to make a legal case, which is why my extended argument on the previous page was exclusively a moral argument. I think the moral argument is strong, and as evidence I point to Phase One's response to our support tickets: they are now offering to provide discount coupons to customers to apply to Capture One. They are doing so on a case by case basis, which is reasonable (larger discounts for customers who paid full price for MP, smaller discounts for legacy iView/EM customers who paid less to get into the Media Pro system). Not free licenses, but better than nothing, and I think it's a recognition of the moral argument.
Of course, for Media Pro users, Capture One 11 is currently not a comparable replacement, so let's hope those discount codes will still be valid when/if Capture One actually has the features we need.0 -
Reality check …
Here was Phase One’s original “plan†for Media Pro/DAM:[quote="Phase One in 2012" wrote:
Will Media Pro be integrated with Capture One?
Phase One’s initial focus has been to create new workflow benefits to photographers when they use Media Pro and Capture One together.
It is Phase One’s general policy not to comment on future releases. However, customers can expect that Phase One will continue to invest in professional photo management and image editing software and make the combined toolset the most effective choice for photographers who need to manage very large, high quality image files and collections in a fast and efficient photography workflow.
Capture One provides state-of-the-art photo editing tools that will assist photographers in achieving the perfect look for every image. Media Pro complements Capture One with its professional photo management capabilities.
They didn’t answer “no†to the question, so even then I suspected Media Pro wasn’t part of Phase One's long-term vision. But eight years later what does Phase One have to show for its “invest[ment] in professional photo management… softwareâ€? It seems even Capture One users (who never used MP) find CO’s catalog either lacking or not of interest (e.g., “I use only Sessions, not the catalog.â€).
Questions I'm pondering:- Do Phase One’s core/most profitable customers (presumably commercial studio photographers using medium format cameras tethered to laptops running CO in Session mode) really want a better catalog?
- Is there a technical roadblock that prevents Phase One from incorporating certain functions/features of Media Pro?
- Given the history (“sunk investmentâ€) of developing the Sessions/Catalog paradigm, is there a psychological bias that prevents Phase One designers from acknowledging the benefits of a neutral database paradigm (i.e., an archival tool not geared to the workflow of a commercial/assignment photographer)?
- If we Media Pro users are waiting for a future version of Capture One that will one day be comparable to Media Pro, are we waiting in vain?
My conclusion:
With the discontinuation of Media Pro, Phase One is making it clear that the type of photographer who wants only a DAM is not Phase One's target customer (and never was). I predict photographers who valued iView/Media Pro's cataloguing paradigm (workflow neutral, raw editor agnostic) and who regard their catalog as "home base" for much of their work, will never be satisfied with Capture One. (Not a particularly revelatory conclusion, as I've been saying some version of this since 2011, but I thought it worth restating/documenting since some change in my software is now closer to reality.)0 -
Mark I think you're right that the typical Capture One user cares less about DAM and more about image quality and tethered capture. But then so do many photographers.
All-in-one image processor/DAM programs are the trend. Phase One had to add DAM to Capture One because Lightroom and Aperture had it. They acquired Expression Media rather than develop a DAM module from scratch. It proved more difficult than expected to add Expression Media so they kept it and sessions as a workaround. We're lucky Media Pro lasted 8 years.0 -
[quote="roberte" wrote:
Mark I think you're right that the typical Capture One user cares less about DAM and more about image quality and tethered capture. But then so do many photographers.
All-in-one image processor/DAM programs are the trend. Phase One had to add DAM to Capture One because Lightroom and Aperture had it. They acquired Expression Media rather than develop a DAM module from scratch. It proved more difficult than expected to add Expression Media so they kept it and sessions as a workaround. We're lucky Media Pro lasted 8 years.
Yes, a much simpler explanation. That was also my working assumption all these years, but I wondered if PO considered the integration a success based on their core users' needs/expectations.0 -
On the site for NeoFinder, which was suggested in the forum as an alternative to MP, they suggested that part of the problem was that MP's code is old-fashioned and clunky, and 32-bit, so much so that it would have been no easy task to convert it into an up-to-date 64-bit app. With the advent of 64bit only macOS versions, the very old code base of Media Pro could no longer be maintained nor updated. This is in stark contrast to NeoFinder, for example, whose code base has been continuously updated, rewritten, and modernized in the last 22 years, to always be on level with all new macOS updates and feature improvements.
iView Media Pro has a long and colorful history, but the core code base was never rewritten or properly updated, and was ageing rapidly. Previous owners like Microsoft simply added some visual changes to the software, and charged for feature-free updates.
I don't know enough about coding to assess the truth of that, but I suppose that there may be something in it.
Ian0 -
[quote="Ian3"
I don't know enough about coding to assess the truth of that, but I suppose that there may be something in it.
[/quote]
It may be worth glancing through this wikipedia article on the Carbon API framework that Media Pro uses (or so I am told) and the modern Cocoa API framework that replaced it in 2007.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_(API).
Updating Media Pro, would appear to be a massive job, (other developers, such as Neofinder have commented on how big a job it was for them to rewrite their programs for Cocoa) and I guess Phase One *may* have decided its not going to give them the return they need.
Cheers,
Graham0 -
[quote="Ian3" wrote:
I don't know enough about coding to assess the truth of that, but I suppose that there may be something in it.
While that's probably true, I find it concerning that NeoFinder makes such a statement. Only PhaseOne can make such a statement, and NeoFinder can only assume that that is the reason.
Going forward you should make sure that software that you pick today to run on Mac is 64 bit. This because from Mojave onward Apple requires 64 bit software. In High Sierra you're warned once when starting a 32 bit software, in Mojave you should still be able to manually accept 32 bit software to run, but the next macOS version will no longer run 32 bit software.
https://9to5mac.com/2018/06/05/macos-mo ... t-support/
Afaik, PhotoSupreme is the only 64 bit DAM for macOS0 -
I'm in no way advocating for NeoFinder, but their website does say that it is fully 64 bit.
Ian0 -
[quote="HansDeZomers" wrote:
Afaik, PhotoSupreme is the only 64 bit DAM for macOS
Neofinder is fully 64 bit.
Cheers,
Graham0 -
[quote="myotis" wrote:
[quote="HansDeZomers" wrote:
Afaik, PhotoSupreme is the only 64 bit DAM for macOS
Neofinder is fully 64 bit.
I have never tried NeoFinder but afaik that's not a DAM but a file manager. NeoFinder compares with Bridge, not MediaPro.
But my main point was that it's inappropriate for NeoFinder to make a statement why MediaPro got discontinued. They can't know that, only assume. And assumptions is the devil of all ....0 -
[quote="HansDeZomers" wrote:
I have never tried NeoFinder but afaik that's not a DAM but a file manager. NeoFinder compares with Bridge, not MediaPro.
But my main point was that it's inappropriate for NeoFinder to make a statement why MediaPro got discontinued. They can't know that, only assume. And assumptions is the devil of all ....
I agree, its a questionable statement from Neofinder, but why do you think Neofinder isn't a DAM, it has a long history as a cataloguing tool, and not as a file manager.
I agree that lots of programs bandied about as because DAMs aren't (e.g. Photo Mechanic), because for me a DAM needs to be rooted in a proper database to give it security and speed. I would also argue it needs to meet the full "Digital Asset" label and also catalogue PDFs, Word, as well as photographic files.
I would be interested in why you consider it isn't a DAM. For you, what makes a DAM a DAM.
Cheers,
Graham0 -
[quote="myotis" wrote:
I would be interested in why you consider it isn't a DAM. For you, what makes a DAM a DAM.
The short answer:
A DAM is a DAM if it can work without the file system.
The extended answer: if you disconnect the file system, you can still use the DAM. That means that for DAM, the database is the leading, whereas for a File Manager the file system is leading.That is why you *always* have to import folders to the DAM.
Does that mean that a File Manager (FM) doesn't have a database? No, a FM can also use a database, but the use of the database for the FM is different: mostly there to cache information in order for the FM to perform better. That is what Bridge does for instance.
The database in a DAM is the primary source for the software. Only when you need direct file access then the file system is needed, like writing metadata to the file, or downsizing the original file, only then the file system is needed. So with DAM you could manage your complete archive without the file system, then write to the files whenever needed.
Can a file manager perform management tasks? Sure. Can a FM replace a DAM: never. Can a DAM replace a FM: yes. Do you need DAM or is a FM sufficient? I can't answer that for you.0 -
[quote="HansDeZomers" wrote:
[quote="myotis" wrote:
I would be interested in why you consider it isn't a DAM. For you, what makes a DAM a DAM.
The short answer:
A DAM is a DAM if it can work without the file system.
The extended answer: if you disconnect the file system, you can still use the DAM. That means that for DAM, the database is the leading, whereas for a File Manager the file system is leading.That is why you *always* have to import folders to the DAM.
Does that mean that a File Manager (FM) doesn't have a database? No, a FM can also use a database, but the use of the database for the FM is different: mostly there to cache information in order for the FM to perform better. That is what Bridge does for instance.
The database in a DAM is the primary source for the software. Only when you need direct file access then the file system is needed, like writing metadata to the file, or downsizing the original file, only then the file system is needed. So with DAM you could manage your complete archive without the file system, then write to the files whenever needed.
EXACTLY,
that is why NeoFinder is indeed a DAM - just like MP you have to first tell it what to catalog before you can use it on/off line...
/edit It does not 'compare to MP' because it does not have a lot of the 'abilities' that MP has - e.g. sent an email with attached images, etc.
However it does display Affinity files in contrast to MP - so it is a DAM, just a different scope - imho /edit0 -
I stand corrected then. As mentioned: I've never used NeoFinder. 0 -
[quote="HansDeZomers"
The short answer:
A DAM is a DAM if it can work without the file system.
[/quote]
Well, as has been explained in another post, the reasons you give for a DAM being a DAM were the reasons I considered Neofinder to be a DAM, that was what I meant by being based on a database backend.
And no, a file manager does not meet my needs, hence I have been using Media Pro (since the iView days) but have been trialing Neofinder (I didn't like Photo Supreme) as I reckoned the writing was on the wall for Media Pro.
However, as a post in the Photo Mechanic forum yesterday promised the DAM version of PM before the end of the year "even if it kills us" I will certainly be looking at what it has to offer.
Cheers,
Graham0 -
At this point I am keeping my eye on both Photo Mechanic 6 (it better not kill the developers!) and NeoFinder.
Yes, (I think) Neofinder is a DAM, if a basic one. I have been corresponding with the developer (I sent him my "list") and he appears to be very interested. After all, the company did post a direct solicitation to Media Pro refugees on its web site.
As an aside, the concept of "DAM" always gets used loosely. I found this web page last night:
https://www.pdnonline.com/gear/software/11-file-friendly-digital-asset-managers/
It includes Photo Mechanic 5 and Adobe Bridge (not DAMs). Phase One Media Pro is noted for its ability to manage images from Capture One 😊0 -
[quote="syncrasy" wrote:
At this point I am keeping my eye on both Photo Mechanic 6 (it better not kill the developers!) and NeoFinder.
Yes, (I think) Neofinder is a DAM, if a basic one. I have been corresponding with the developer (I sent him my "list") and he appears to be very interested. After all, the company did post a direct solicitation to Media Pro refugees on its web site.
As an aside, the concept of "DAM" always gets used loosely. I found this web page last night:
https://www.pdnonline.com/gear/software/11-file-friendly-digital-asset-managers/
It includes Photo Mechanic 5 and Adobe Bridge (not DAMs). Phase One Media Pro is noted for its ability to manage images from Capture One 😊
The Neofinder developer is very responsive, and although its more powerful than it first appears, it doesn't have the polish of Media Pro.
As I already make a lot of use of PM5, PM6 will almost certainly be heading my way, when its released, but I will probably hang onto Neofinder for it's fuller DAM features. I suspect PM6 will be photo-centric.
And yes, its seems a bad idea to kill the PM6 developers, as that won't leave anyone to support the new program 😊
Cheers,
Graham0 -
Well, call me 'crazy' but the day of trial is fast approaching, lol...
- I used the recent events as an 'excuse' to upgrade my current MacBook Pro (mid 15) with a rather expensive internal ssd from OWC - Aura Pro X, 2TB; the factory 500GB ssd will be repurposed as an external HD (after testing I will decide on its usage 😉)
- after back up of my current system, I will install the new hardware and do a 'clean' install of High Sierra (the 'do not forget' list of such undertaking is long and distinguished - eg reinstall all my image related software, and a manually assembled test folder with subfolders with all my currently used image file formats in total I am thinking 3-5k images (a copy of those of course))
- Once all the above run stable and is up to date, I will download and install - Parallels 14 latest version (trial), Windows10, and set up the virtual workspace (of course with little idea of what I am doing...) but they make it look easy on their webpages...
- Lastly download and install iMatch 2018 free trial - and pray...lol
- notepad for # oh s***t count already in place!
Well, that is my current plan, if there is any interest in my unscientific results let me know
Any 'constructive' comments and helpful thoughts are welcome (as in 'don't forget to...' or 'make sure you try..' etc.
- Thanks!0 -
[quote="syncrasy" wrote:
- Do Phase One’s core/most profitable customers (presumably commercial studio photographers using medium format cameras tethered to laptops running CO in Session mode) really want a better catalog?
- Is there a technical roadblock that prevents Phase One from incorporating certain functions/features of Media Pro?
- Given the history (“sunk investmentâ€) of developing the Sessions/Catalog paradigm, is there a psychological bias that prevents Phase One designers from acknowledging the benefits of a neutral database paradigm (i.e., an archival tool not geared to the workflow of a commercial/assignment photographer)?
- If we Media Pro users are waiting for a future version of Capture One that will one day be comparable to Media Pro, are we waiting in vain?
1. I am not sure. Some of them might. There are a bunch of new customers that don't work in a studio and don't need tethering - I count my self there. Will we be seen as core at some point? Not sure. I hope our needs get put on the same level - at the very least more non medium format non studio users have purchased the product recently. I have no idea what kind of numbers we are. I certainly *do* want a better catalogue 😊
2. I am certain there is no technical roadblock. There is time and development effort and balancing priorities. Those will govern what features get added in future versions.
3. Interesting. I don't really know but my guess would by yes 😊 I think the message has been solidly sent - they have no interest in a neutral archival tool - hence the discontinuation of MP.
4. I think that depends on what you mean by comparable. I personally doubt that C1 will ever be a neutral DAM product. I also personally don't care that it is not. I do care about having a more robust, performant and feature-full DAM capabilities added to my RAW converter 😄
In other words I will very very happy if even some of the DAM features of MP are added to the C1 catalogue in terms of managing files that the C1 RAW converter manages. I do recognize that others will not.[quote="syncrasy" wrote:
My conclusion:
With the discontinuation of Media Pro, Phase One is making it clear that the type of photographer who wants only a DAM is not Phase One's target customer (and never was). I predict photographers who valued iView/Media Pro's cataloguing paradigm (workflow neutral, raw editor agnostic) and who regard their catalog as "home base" for much of their work, will never be satisfied with Capture One. (Not a particularly revelatory conclusion, as I've been saying some version of this since 2011, but I thought it worth restating/documenting since some change in my software is now closer to reality.)
Yeah, I think you are correct.
I also think that many people like me that don't need a neutral DAM application may very well be very happy with C1 catalogues some day. I certainly hope so - not quite there yet.
For the record when I came here I was attracted to a combined MP C1 work flow since MP seemed like a better DAM the LR and C1 a better RAW converter. That is the path I wanted to take. I quickly grew concerned that MP was not going to be part of Phase One's future. I was disappointed but not enough to prevent me from switching to C1.0 -
[quote="myotis" wrote:
I didn't like Photo Supreme
That's unfortunate. I've switched away from iView shortly after Microsoft acquired it. The concept in Photo Supreme is different, almost opposite, from that in iView/MediaPro. That made it a culture shock at first. Once you've used Photo Supreme for a few weeks you'll see where its strengths are.
Here's a good read. A few years old article, but still valid.
https://www.bkwinephotography.com/techn ... am-system/
Photo Mechanic is reknown for their good software and you can expect good things. But fact is that there is currently no PM6 and once released I expect the DAM features to be basic. It will take them years to get it to the level of MediaPro/PhotoSupreme/iMatch/Daminion.
Today I see only these products as full fledged DAM software products (for the home/amateur/professional photographer).0 -
[quote="C-F" wrote:
- Lastly download and install iMatch 2018 free trial - and pray...lol
- notepad for # oh s***t count already in place!
Sounds like a good plan. Whichever DAM product you're going to try, give each at least 2 to 4 weeks of thorough testing. Don't test different DAMs at the same time. Each of these full fledged DAM products use their own concepts and require quite some time to get the hang of it.0 -
[quote="syncrasy" wrote:
Of course, for Media Pro users, Capture One 11 is currently not a comparable replacement, so let's hope those discount codes will still be valid when/if Capture One actually has the features we need.
I just received word that my (small) Media Pro refugee's Capture One discount code is valid only for CO11. Considering all the evidence and PO's focus, I'm not inclined to buy CO11 now and hope PO releases a version of CO that has the DAM features I need. Oh well.
Back to Neofinder vs Photo Supreme vs Photo Mechanic 6!0 -
[quote="HansDeZomers" wrote:
Photo Mechanic is reknown for their good software and you can expect good things. But fact is that there is currently no PM6 and once released I expect the DAM features to be basic. It will take them years to get it to the level of MediaPro/PhotoSupreme/iMatch/Daminion . . .
But Photo Mechanic has been "working on" their catalog for at least 10 years 😉
(That's intended to be a joke based on the famous "PM catalog" rumors since 2006. I too expect the PM catalog will be basic, but perhaps they actually have been watching and learning over the years and will surprise us.)0 -
[quote="myotis" wrote:
...I have been using Media Pro (since the iView days) but have been trialing Neofinder (I didn't like Photo Supreme) as I reckoned the writing was on the wall for Media Pro.
However, as a post in the Photo Mechanic forum yesterday promised the DAM version of PM before the end of the year "even if it kills us" I will certainly be looking at what it has to offer.
I wonder why single user fotostation ( https://shop.fotoware.com/collections/s ... r-products ) does not get more attention.It could be because the company FotoWare is known for quite a bit more expensive enterprise client/server type DAM.0 -
[quote="syncrasy" wrote:
[quote="syncrasy" wrote:
Of course, for Media Pro users, Capture One 11 is currently not a comparable replacement, so let's hope those discount codes will still be valid when/if Capture One actually has the features we need.
I just received word that my (small) Media Pro refugee's Capture One discount code is valid only for CO11. Considering all the evidence and PO's focus, I'm not inclined to buy CO11 now and hope PO releases a version of CO that has the DAM features I need. Oh well.
Back to Neofinder vs Photo Supreme vs Photo Mechanic 6!
I don't want to 'bust your bubble' or darken the already gloomy cloud, but
- recalling your comprehensive list of demands/expectations on a suitable DAM for your workflow, and based on my trials with 2 of your 'choices' I think atm your only 'hope' will be PM6 'as we don't know it' 😉
Luckily, MP will be intact for some time in the future so 'time is not of pressing essence - yet'...
If you decide to give the other 2 programs a trial, I would be very interested in your impressions and eval results...
Franz0
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