Where to, now?
So with Media Pro SE killed and all that lacks on C1 as a DAM where are you all going to? I know, Media Pro is still working, but it just seems unwise to keep using it (even though I am still using MS Expression Media eventually!). I was an Lightroom subscriber, but cancelled it the moment they've increased the subscription costs (I live in Brazil, they've basically doubled the subscription price on 2017. Worst: the price for old subscribers, like me, was higher than the price for new subscribers!). Anyway, what company currently deserves my ~US$200 for a really good DAM? I'm not looking for anything else but a DAM.
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[quote="OddS" wrote:
[quote="myotis" wrote:
...I have been using Media Pro (since the iView days) but have been trialing Neofinder (I didn't like Photo Supreme) as I reckoned the writing was on the wall for Media Pro.
However, as a post in the Photo Mechanic forum yesterday promised the DAM version of PM before the end of the year "even if it kills us" I will certainly be looking at what it has to offer.
I wonder why single user fotostation ( https://shop.fotoware.com/collections/s ... r-products ) does not get more attention.It could be because the company FotoWare is known for quite a bit more expensive enterprise client/server type DAM.
Maybe also,
Very scarce information (just gives platforms it run on) - no trial download?0 -
[quote="HansDeZomers" wrote:
[quote="myotis" wrote:
I didn't like Photo Supreme
That's unfortunate. I've switched away from iView shortly after Microsoft acquired it. The concept in Photo Supreme is different, almost opposite, from that in iView/MediaPro.
Photo Mechanic is reknown for their good software and you can expect good things. But fact is that there is currently no PM6 and once released I expect the DAM features to be basic.
Photo Supreme was OK, and had some attractive features, but in the end I stuck with Media Pro, and added Neofinder as a "back up". Maybe "didn't like it" was a bit extreme, it was more that I didn't like it as much as the alternatives.
Photo Mechanic 5 is at the centre of my workflow, so regardless of the new DAM features, I would probably upgrade. I would also be happy to continue with Neofinder as it does what I want. Its very fast to use and to update catalogues, allows for complex searches/smart folders etc and has a responsive developer.
But it still makes a lot of sense, given how much I rely on PM5, if I could also use it as a DAM.
Cheers,
Graham0 -
[quote="C-F" wrote:
If you decide to give the other 2 programs a trial, I would be very interested in your impressions and eval results...
If you're referring to PSu and NeoFinder, I have tested both programs:
Photo Supreme (tested 2014)
Here's my exchange with Hert (the developer) in which he corrected some of my mis-impressions, but also acknowledged that I found a bug:
https://forum.idimager.com/viewtopic.ph ... &p=106309&
I reported my impressions here:
viewtopic.php?f=43&t=15741&start=15#p79602
(includes my exchange/friendly debate with Hans)
and here:
viewtopic.php?f=43&t=26253#p129172
How much has changed since 2014? Did Hert add Web galleries or email support?
NeoFinder (tested this week)
I reported my impressions here:
viewtopic.php?f=43&t=28869&start=15#p139567
Not ready for my needs, but it includes a rudimentary Web gallery generator, and the developer is considering improving it as well as adding other items from my "requested feature list."0 -
[quote="OddS" wrote:
I wonder why single user fotostation ( https://shop.fotoware.com/collections/s ... r-products ) does not get more attention.It could be because the company FotoWare is known for quite a bit more expensive enterprise client/server type DAM.
I did try Fotostation, but it isn't a DAM as it relies on the browsing images in the file system and only catalogues keywords and saves searches. Unless there was something I missed when trying to set it up.. I really liked the program, but as a browser based application it was just too slow for me.
Cheers,
Graham0 -
[quote="C-F" wrote:
[quote="OddS" wrote:
[quote="myotis" wrote:
...I have been using Media Pro (since the iView days) but have been trialing Neofinder (I didn't like Photo Supreme) as I reckoned the writing was on the wall for Media Pro.
However, as a post in the Photo Mechanic forum yesterday promised the DAM version of PM before the end of the year "even if it kills us" I will certainly be looking at what it has to offer.
I wonder why single user fotostation ( https://shop.fotoware.com/collections/s ... r-products ) does not get more attention.It could be because the company FotoWare is known for quite a bit more expensive enterprise client/server type DAM.
Maybe also,
Very scarce information (just gives platforms it run on) - no trial download?
Odd's link is for the store. Here's the main company site: https://www.fotostation.com0 -
[quote="C-F" wrote:
Very scarce information (just gives platforms it run on) - no trial download?
There is a trial of Foto Station, just click on the download button on the home page where it says that a trial is available.
https://www.fotostation.com
The help also provides some videos and reasonably good info on using it.
Cheers,
Graham0 -
Thanks guys, my bad,
will add to my 'to do list' after 'resolving' my current (daunting) project of venturing into 'virtual Windows world' and hopefully testing iMatch to suit my needs and hopes.
As above stated - good idea to concentrate on testing one DAM at a time...0 -
[quote="C-F" wrote:
venturing into 'virtual Windows world' and hopefully testing iMatch to suit my needs and hopes.
Wow, you're braver than I am. I've used VMware Fusion + Windows 7 for other applications without any problems, but the idea of placing my catalog into a virtual machine frightens me. 🤓0 -
[quote="syncrasy" wrote:
[quote="Paul Dymond" wrote:
Hi all, just wanted to let you know that I contacted Peter Krogh (of the DAM book fame) and he said that he’s looking at a couple of software programmes as candidates to replace MP - Photo Supreme and Daminion. I have downloaded Photo Supreme for a play and here’s some observations. They have a downloadable script that will import Catalog Sets (assuming you’ve synced them back to the original file) and convert them to what they call Portfolios. But, and this is a big but, you have to manually confirm each and every picture, one at a time, by clicking on an ok button in a dialogue box that pops up! That’s a lot of clicking! And nested Catalog Sets don’t transfer into nested Portfolios, they are each their own separated portfolio. So if you have a Catalog Set with 20 subsets each and every one of those subsets will be it’s own Portfolio. In other words, unusable. Also I’ve imported 55000 images to get an idea of speed and it is slow as hell operating on a pretty well specced Windows machine. Back to the drawing board!
Wow. Thanks for contacting Peter and doing all that work. The PSu script sounds like it's less useful than turning Catalog Sets into temporary MP keywords prior to migration. At least with temporary MP keywords you wouldn't have to confirm images one by one—just select all and create a Portfolio. I suppose the nesting could be staged in temporary MP keywords with logical shorthand names, e.g., keyword for Catalog Set parent = "CS001-[name of Catalog Set]", first nested child of CS001 = "CS001-a-[name of Catalog Set]". But that's still a lot of work and the speed issue appears to be a killer. I have ~ 40,000 images and hundreds of nested Catalog Sets, not to mention my 1,000s of hierarchical keywords, so I'm not keen on migrating.
Just realized that Robert E's advice includes the possibility of converting nested Catalog Sets to hierarchical keywords (rather than my convoluted naming process above), then exporting the annotations. Would those be ingested properly into PSu or other software (obviously as keywords, but at least recognizing the hierarchy of the Catalog Sets)?
Here's his original advice:[quote="roberte" wrote:
For better or worse iView MediaPro/ Expression Media/ Media Pro offers several exit strategies. The easiest is to write metadata (Export Annotations) to the file or XMP sidecar file. Any decent DAM app will read the metadata. Export to XML is more difficult but does let you edit fields (search and replace) to match the new app.
If you use Media Pro Sets it's best to move that info to Keywords or Hierarchical Keywords then Export Annotations. There are scripts to do that, or if you only have few dozen Sets drag and drop works too.0 -
FotoStation is definitely a solid DAM system that scales to enterprise with millions of images. Fotoware's target audience was newspaper and magazines and the standalone version was bundled with my original Nikon D1 in the 1999. 0 -
[quote="syncrasy" wrote:
[quote="C-F" wrote:
venturing into 'virtual Windows world' and hopefully testing iMatch to suit my needs and hopes.
Wow, you're braver than I am. I've used VMware Fusion + Windows 7 for other applications without any problems, but the idea of placing my catalog into a virtual machine frightens me. 🤓
lol, you call it 'brave' I call it 'crazy' 😂
however,
1. my digital 'assets' should be 'safe' as iMatch only indexes the actual files (referenced) and builds an internal cache for its previews and thumbnails - ergo my images and documents remain where they are.
The database itself will be backed up as any other valuable data.
Some things I don't know, and hence the test, can I open and use my osx apps (C1, Affinity, DxO, PM5, et all) from within iMatch without having to go through a process of switching Os's (-> coherence mode in Parallels?); will iMach open apple mail to send email with attached image(s)?
How much of a performance hit will all this entail? etc...
2. My son used this setup for over 4 years in a business environment (non photo related) and assured me to never have had any problems, he actually recommended this constellation over a dedicated 'Windows box') - I hope he is right...
Well, my ssd arrived today, tomorrow its installation time...0 -
[quote="syncrasy" wrote:
Just realized that Robert E's advice includes the possibility of converting nested Catalog Sets to hierarchical keywords (rather than my convoluted naming process above), then exporting the annotations. Would those be ingested properly into PSu or other software (obviously as keywords, but at least recognizing the hierarchy of the Catalog Sets)?
Catalog Sets are part of an organizing concept, while keywords are for cataloging/searching. I would not convert catalog sets to keywords unless there's no other way to carry that information over. PhotoSupreme has a script that converts Catalog Sets to its equivalent Portfolio Collections in PhotoSupreme. Why not use those? PaulDymond posted some comments about it here and at the IDimager forum, which did lead to an update of the script. You could try the script first. https://forum.idimager.com/viewtopic.php?f=57&t=27300Photo Supreme (tested 2014)
That's 4 years ago, meaning 4 years of evolution. For MediaPro development not much changes in 4 years but for PhotoSupreme and iMatch and Daminion that could mean a world of difference.0 -
[quote="HansDeZomers" wrote:
Photo Supreme (tested 2014)
That's 4 years ago, meaning 4 years of evolution. For MediaPro development not much changes in 4 years but for PhotoSupreme and iMatch and Daminion that could mean a world of difference.
This is really true 😄
But I became very interested what the people doing the C1 with sessions used without MP. In Photo Supreme you can see your C1 edits - not exactly but is more than nothing (I mean its important).0 -
[quote="HansDeZomers" wrote:
[quote="syncrasy" wrote:
Just realized that Robert E's advice includes the possibility of converting nested Catalog Sets to hierarchical keywords (rather than my convoluted naming process above), then exporting the annotations. Would those be ingested properly into PSu or other software (obviously as keywords, but at least recognizing the hierarchy of the Catalog Sets)?
Catalog Sets are part of an organizing concept, while keywords are for cataloging/searching. I would not convert catalog sets to keywords unless there's no other way to carry that information over. PhotoSupreme has a script that converts Catalog Sets to its equivalent Portfolio Collections in PhotoSupreme. Why not use those? PaulDymond posted some comments about it here and at the IDimager forum, which did lead to an update of the script. You could try the script first. https://forum.idimager.com/viewtopic.php?f=57&t=27300
Hans, I understand the difference between Catalog Sets and keywords. Because Paul had reported that PSu's migration script did not work, I meant simply to convey RobertE's suggestion to "convert" Catalog Sets to keywords temporarily, for migration purposes only, then reconstruct the Catalog Sets as Portfolio Collections after migration. I wasn't aware that PSu has since updated the migration script. That's great. Unless I missed it, Paul didn't update his comments to indicate that the script had been updated.0 -
[quote="syncrasy" wrote:
Because Paul had reported that PSu's migration script did not work,
...
...
Paul didn't update his comments to indicate that the script had been updated.
I don't understand why you just don't try it yourself. What doesn't work by Paul doesn't automatically work by everyone else.
And the best - if something should not work - ask Hert0 -
[quote="RobiWan" wrote:
[quote="syncrasy" wrote:
Because Paul had reported that PSu's migration script did not work,
...
...
Paul didn't update his comments to indicate that the script had been updated.
I don't understand why you just don't try it yourself. What doesn't work by Paul doesn't automatically work by everyone else.
And the best - if something should not work - ask Hert
Simple answer: I am not currently evaluating PSu because it doesn't have a feature I need, but I wanted to help Paul in case he was still trying to get it to work. As I have since learned (by looking around the PSu forums), the migration script was not coded properly (by Hert's own admission), and Hert posted a new version to address the problem. This happened all within a couple days, so I was not blaming Paul for not reporting every new experience; I was merely letting Hans know why I had posted RobertE's trick.0 -
[quote="HansDeZomers" wrote:
Catalog Sets are part of an organizing concept, while keywords are for cataloging/searching.
Use catalog sets for whatever you like or not at all if you wish. Sets are searchable and can be scripted.
Keywords are part of a standard so good for metadata roundtripping or moving to other systems. *Hierarchical* keywords are not part of the IPTC standard so don't have the same interoperability as flat keywords. Most software vendors I know rely on the Adobe XMP namespace for hierarchical keywords.0 -
Hi all, sorry busy with work and hadn’t had time to check in. I see the script has been updated now but haven’t had a chance to give it a whirl. 0 -
[quote="myotis" wrote:
I did try Fotostation, but it isn't a DAM as it relies on the browsing images in the file system and only catalogues keywords and saves searches. Unless there was something I missed when trying to set it up.. I really liked the program, but as a browser based application it was just too slow for me.[quote="roberte" wrote:
FotoStation is definitely a solid DAM system that scales to enterprise with millions of images. Fotoware's target audience was newspaper and magazines and the standalone version was bundled with my original Nikon D1 in the 1999.[quote="FotoStation" wrote:
Unlike many database-based asset management systems, FotoStation does not need to import pictures from your drive into a special database for you to be able to work with them. When you use FotoStation as a stand-alone product, without a connection to other FotoWare server applications, you can simply point it to a folder on a local or a network drive to display the pictures stored within.
Okay, for the sake of this discussion, let's just say FotoStation is a browser-type, non-database, DAM system. The feature set is comparable to most database-based DAMs (see FotoStation editions - comparison).
I think I can get around the speed issue (that Graham mentions) by setting up an "Archive" in FotoStation to focus only on my media folder. (I think the "Archive" section could act as a collection of all one's catalogs.) If that's true, other than losing the ability to archive offline media, what are the practical drawbacks of using the FotoStation browser (vs. Media Pro catalog)? (Graham, could you expand what you mean by "only catalogs keywords"?)0 -
[quote="syncrasy" wrote:
Okay, for the sake of this discussion, let's just say FotoStation is a browser-type, non-database, DAM system. The feature set is comparable to most database-based DAMs (see FotoStation editions - comparison).
I think I can get around the speed issue (that Graham mentions) by setting up an "Archive" in FotoStation to focus only on my media folder. (I think the "Archive" section could act as a collection of all one's catalogs.) If that's true, other than losing the ability to archive offline media, what are the practical drawbacks of using the FotoStation browser (vs. Media Pro catalog)? (Graham, could you expand what you mean by "only catalogs keywords"?)
If you could get round the speed issue, Fotostation looked good, as I think I said, I don't have the fastest computer in the world.
In terms of only cataloguing keywords, I meant that it doesn't generate a catalogue with optimised previews and index files like Media Pro does, but only an index (that I obviously called a catalogue) that contains all the metadata associated with each image, and the searches are based on this index. This was very fast, but I then had sit and wait while it painfully slowly rendered the previews.
Graham0 -
[quote="myotis" wrote:
[quote="syncrasy" wrote:
Okay, for the sake of this discussion, let's just say FotoStation is a browser-type, non-database, DAM system. The feature set is comparable to most database-based DAMs (see FotoStation editions - comparison).
I think I can get around the speed issue (that Graham mentions) by setting up an "Archive" in FotoStation to focus only on my media folder. (I think the "Archive" section could act as a collection of all one's catalogs.) If that's true, other than losing the ability to archive offline media, what are the practical drawbacks of using the FotoStation browser (vs. Media Pro catalog)? (Graham, could you expand what you mean by "only catalogs keywords"?)
If you could get round the speed issue, Fotostation looked good, as I think I said, I don't have the fastest computer in the world.
In terms of only cataloguing keywords, I meant that it doesn't generate a catalogue with optimised previews and index files like Media Pro does, but only an index (that I obviously called a catalogue) that contains all the metadata associated with each image, and the searches are based on this index. This was very fast, but I then had sit and wait while it painfully slowly rendered the previews.
Graham
Ahh, okay, I think I understand you. In my test the "Thumbnail Grid" is very slow to rebuild after changing sort order or some other view property (up to 1 minute for 500 images). But I do notice that once the grid has rebuilt itself, I can review (with arrow keys) the larger previews very quickly in the Preview window (the previews appear to be cached). There's an odd button on the tool bar ("Toggle: Fast Loading or High Quality Thumbnails") but it isn't clear to me what it does.
There's a lot to like about FotoStation... very professional design with DAM features such as virtual collections ("Projects") and extensive metadata tools. It even has customizable Web templates (although I can't find the documentation). Update: hierarchical keywords and custom HTML templates are not available with the single user version of FotoStation. But Media Pro still has the edge (true catalog/thumbnail previews for fast browsing, more clear file renaming dialog, Light Table, hierarchical keywords, etc.), so the search continues.0 -
[quote="syncrasy" wrote:
Ahh, okay, I think I understand you. In my test the "Thumbnail Grid" is very slow to rebuild after changing sort order or some other view property (up to 1 minute for 500 images). But I do notice that once the grid has rebuilt itself, I can review (with arrow keys) the larger previews very quickly in the Preview window (the previews appear to be cached). There's an odd button on the tool bar ("Toggle: Fast Loading or High Quality Thumbnails") but it isn't clear to me what it does.
There's a lot to like about FotoStation... very professional design with DAM features such as virtual collections ("Projects") and extensive metadata tools. It even has customizable Web templates (although I can't find the documentation). But Media Pro still has the edge (true catalog/thumbnail previews for fast browsing, more clear file renaming dialog, Light Table, hierarchical keywords, etc.), so the search continues.
It was some time ago that I tried it, but it did come across as a well thought out piece of software, but I agree its not a media pro.
It was the grid rebuild that was my issue as it needed to rebuild the previews everytime I launcehed the program. I suspect the fast loading.high quality might be a choice of using the RAW built in Jpeg, or allowing Fotostation to build its own previews.
Good luck with your quest.
Cheers,
Graham0 -
[quote="pixelsrzen" wrote:
This is most disheartening.
(snip)
Paying good money for commercial products that become abandonware on a regular basis really isn't working out all that well. Open source is looking better by the moment. If I find something that looks like a suitable replacement, I'll be sure to circle back and post it here. Nothing I've looked at since I read the announcement email looks promising.
Thanks,
pixelsrzen
Disheartening is right!
Looking on this list: https://www.pdnonline.com/gear/software ... -managers/
I see an open source DAM called Resource Space. Has anyone tried it? https://www.resourcespace.com/
Editing to add: I was dragging my feet on purchasing the upgrade to SE. We have 1.3.2 on our computers and since the licenses were yanked from the store by the time I saw the email announcement, we're stuck with that I guess. I'll have to look in to what that means for OS upgrades etc.0 -
[quote="syncrasy" wrote:
FYI... Robert Edwards, an iView/Media Pro expert who (I think) now uses Lightroom, has posted a very insightful post over in the CO forum in my original Media Pro refugee thread. He points out that Lightroom CC can be used as DAM for free if you let your CC trial expire. The image editor won't work but the DAM portion will still work.
He refers to an article by Peter Krogh, called "Lightroom *never* fully expires" that explains how this works.
I never liked Lightroom's UI, but will probably consider this option out of necessity. I am checking out the Lightroom Classic trial version now.
An observation after my Lr trial ended...
As expected, the Develop and Map modules are disabled. But I notice that the ability to launch an external editor (Edit In...) is gone, i.e., missing from the Photo menu. I can set up my external editor choices in Preferences, but they just aren't available for use by Lr. Is that normal behavior with an expired trial version?0 -
[quote="syncrasy" wrote:
[quote="syncrasy" wrote:
FYI... Robert Edwards, an iView/Media Pro expert who (I think) now uses Lightroom, has posted a very insightful post over in the CO forum in my original Media Pro refugee thread. He points out that Lightroom CC can be used as DAM for free if you let your CC trial expire. The image editor won't work but the DAM portion will still work.
He refers to an article by Peter Krogh, called "Lightroom *never* fully expires" that explains how this works.
I never liked Lightroom's UI, but will probably consider this option out of necessity. I am checking out the Lightroom Classic trial version now.
An observation after my Lr trial ended...
As expected, the Develop and Map modules are disabled. But I notice that the ability to launch an external editor (Edit In...) is gone, i.e., missing from the Photo menu. I can set up my external editor choices in Preferences, but they just aren't available for use by Lr. Is that normal behavior with an expired trial version?
Just out of curiosity, could you do me a big favour and load the LR CC App on to your Apple device if you have one? I'm using it on mine but I have a subscription and I'm curious to know what happens if your subscription runs out and whether you can still use the Library module on the iPad.0 -
[quote="Paul Dymond" wrote:
Just out of curiosity, could you do me a big favour and load the LR CC App on to your Apple device if you have one? I'm using it on mine but I have a subscription and I'm curious to know what happens if your subscription runs out and whether you can still use the Library module on the iPad.
Paul, I have only an iPhone (iOS 11.4.1), but I was able to download the app, create an album, add a photo from my camera roll, and add a photo with the camera. I could also edit the camera photo and add ratings. I did not enable cloud services. As far as I can tell, there is no mention of my being a "trial user" (but I am signed in with my Adobe account).
Does that help?
I wonder if the app is a different beast (not affected by the desktop Lr status). Or maybe you'll notice mobile sync will be affected if you use that on your desktop Lr. (??) Wish I could tell you for sure.0 -
Thank you so much Mark, that's a great help. Are you able to sync with the Desktop LR at all?
I've been experimenting with the syncing between LR and the app and discovered that nested Collections on the desktop programme do not show up as nested Collections in the app, but as stand alone albums. That could get a bit confusing if you had a lot of nested Collections.0 -
[quote="Paul Dymond" wrote:
Thank you so much Mark, that's a great help. Are you able to sync with the Desktop LR at all?
I think I probably spoke to soon (this is new territory for me)...
I had Sync turned off on my Lr desktop. After turning Sync on (on Lr desktop), it apparently activated the CC cloud portion, so I am able to sync a Collection to the cloud and the Collection appeared as an album on my iPhone Lr CC app. And I can create an Album on Lr CC app that syncs back to the desktop. But then I notice on the Lr app, under the cloud icon, that my status had changed to "Trial - Days Remaining 30." So it appears that the cloud syncing has its own trial period. (The trial for Lr desktop was only 7 days.) And, I assume, that desktop-to-app syncing will end after 30 days. So I'll have to report back to you in 30 days (or you could try to contact Adobe support to see if they know what will happen in your case).0 -
Thanks Mark, apparently the 30 day trial lets you use just the Library module after it expires but I'm not sure what happens to the ability to sync to the app. If you wouldn't mind letting me know in 30 days that would be great. I'll also get in touch with Adobe but have a feeling they might be reluctant to tell me how I can use their software for free!
For anybody else thinking of swapping to Lightroom I've been experimenting and found that I can sync my catalogue to two different iPads at once as long as I am logged in to my account on both. The syncing is incredibly slow though so probably not feasible for large libraries but you can choose which Collections to sync. So if having stuff available on your iPad is a handy feature for you then you would have to limit it to a smaller number of images.
Also I re-ran the Catalog Sets to Collections script for Photosupreme and while it is now doing it automatically it's been running for two days non-stop and has still only done 3% of a 60,000 image catalogue. Certainly easier than doing it manually but a very long process.
The search continues...0
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