C1 development hell?

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22 comments

  • Jason 2
    Good Luck Alan!

    I've been asking the same question for an eternity, it seems...
    You're right, Capture one Pro 4 is USELESS if they can't get it to work. I mean, why announce something that they can't seem to get off the ground? Scared of other RAW processing software running away with (gasp!) a program that actually works?! Or just happy to dangle a carrot?
    And you're also right to point out that we just need stable, not crappy, software. 3.7.8 would suffice, though you do get the impression that there won't be a release until Phase One have waited for the new Canons and Nikons to appear, so they can kill two birds with one stone.
    What you didn't pick up on and what you will get, is the B.S responses/excuses you get from Phase one in these forums. Expect something along the lines of : "beta does support...." or "we are working on an imminent......." or "The final release of Leopard wasn't what we thought it was going to be...." etc.
    As other people have pointed out, most major software companies have addressed leopard compatibility within a couple of weeks of it's release.
    Why is PhaseOne holding back?
    ...and other questions.
    it's rubbish

    J
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  • Mark711
    Our studio is getting to the point that we are considering going back to Leaf when we retire our H20, which will probably be next year. Leaf Capture 11.0.1 was released Nov 13 and is compatible with Leopard. It makes me wonder sometimes if they realize we make our living with this stuff.

    MT
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  • Alan Rei
    My personal opinion is that PhaseOne is in a very very dangerous situation.
    People is getting very disappointed with the way they give (mmmhhh, actually they don't) support for the software.

    Always promising for future developments, but nothing arriving in real world in time.
    P45 Plus was announced last year (end of 2006), at that time I bought a P45 with upgrade option, but my Plus arrived in october 2007!!!
    CaptureOne 4 was announced at the beginning of 2006, we are still waiting (the beta is really a joke for a professional!).
    CaptureOne 3.7.8 was announced at the end of August, we are still waiting.

    The fact is that people like me, that pays THOUSANDS of Euros or Dollars, needs *edited* SOLID support! I mean, CaptureOne Pro is a 500 Euros software, same as the whole Photoshop CS3 and much much more than Lightroom (that is a really high quality software) and we have no support for a mainstream operative system like Leopard!
    There is absolutely no excuse for this!

    Maybe next time I have to buy a Digital Back (probably in 2008) I will go to another brand, just because I don't want to see the face of my clients getting disappointed because of a crash while shooting with P45+.

    Ciao
    Alan
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  • Ulf Liljegren
    Hello

    Alan

    To respond to some of the things you are saying:
    Plus series announcement is correct. We said we will start ship in Q1 -07 which we did. Customers was served on a first in first out basis and back orders where quite vast, to day we can deliver pretty much with in a few days of placing order.
    To have back orders on new product is nothing unique when working with this kind of products.

    CO4 has been delayed yes, primarily due the much more cumbersome maintenance of the 3.x platform. The first CO4 is a LE and as you say it does lack many of the PRO features but they will come onboard with CO4 PRO. We have to start somewhere right?

    3.7.8 has not been announced at all yet, but has been talked about when of course if we mention the next version, as logical number progression it will be 3.7.8

    CO4 does support 10.5 and next 3.7.x should as well however the implementation has more more difficult then we originally anticipated.

    But rest-assure that our programers are more pale then usual solving the issues at hand.
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  • Mark711
    So the users that buy the $20,000, and up, digital backs get to wait on the v4 pro version and wait on updates to the current 3.7.x version while those who just bought LE or had it bundled with their DSLR get priority.
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  • Ulf Liljegren
    ohh.. that was a harsh way of putting it.


    When it comes to CO4: LE version is almost finished. Once it is done our programmers will start implementing the features of the PRO version and then release this software.
    Just to clarify: it is not like we have PRO and chose to release PRO later.
    What we have done to "ease" the transition period is to make sure that PRO user can use their product key to activate LE, also we have implemented camera back support in the LE including LCC which was not a part of the original LE.

    Mean while at the same time we are working on 3.7.x and here camera back features and issues has the top most priority.
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  • Mark711
    I didn't intend to sound harsh, however IMHO the PRO users should have priority so the Pro version should be developed first. Plus it seems you would get more feedback from users that rely on this software everyday. Also I wasn't implying that you had the v4 PRO version and were just holding out.

    Currently I'm more concerned with 3.7.x as that is what we have now. We are waiting to upgrade computers because 3.7 is not officially support Leopard and we use a mix of backs and DSLR's.

    I have never used LE in the past but if I understand correctly it doesn't have sessions. Our whole workflow revolves around session folders to tie into Applescript that handles a lot of repetitive tasks. I did download the LE beta about a month ago but it would not run and having never used LE before I have nothing to compare it to. I would take another look if you have a newer beta that will launch.

    Regards,
    MT
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  • Ulf Liljegren
    MT

    That would be nice to release CO4PRO first but the fact is that PRO takes longer to develop when it has more features, so the option is to wait to release CO4 until CO4PRO is done.

    Me for one rather see that we do not, when the current CO4 contains a lot of advantages which anyone with a CO license can take advantage of today.

    You are correct that it does not have session and does not support apple script so maybe it does not fit your workflow but having this said it does not mean other people can not take advantage of it.

    CO3 version with Leopard support is being worked on.

    If CO4 does not launch try deleting the capture one session folder which you can find in the picture folder of your user.
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  • Mark711
    I did get the latest beta to launch, haven't had a chance to shoot tethered yet. I do see some things I like, but the interface will take getting used to. It doesn't seem very fast, compared to Aperture with the same Canon files, but I'll assume the final release will be optimized for speed. As far as using it now we don't use beta software for live jobs and without sessions and Applescript support, which will hopefully be better in v4, even the final release of LE won't be of much help. That's why 3.7.x is more important to us now. I'm sure the v4 Pro version will be great once completed.

    Regards,
    MT
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  • Ulf Liljegren
    Unfortunately one of the limitations with LE is that is does not support tethered but things like that will come onboard soon.

    It is very fast on Intel but no optimization has been done for PPC so a funny consequence to that is that a G4 beat a G5 in performance with current Beta, this will of course change in final.
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  • Peter12
    Hello,

    Will 3.7.8 support the new Nikons, the D300 in particular, when it is released?

    Thanks,

    Peter
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  • Joanna 1
    I agree. Ever since Intel Macs arrived, C1Pro has been incompatible. It took a year of me telling PhaseOne that there was a bug (they blamed the 4 Mac Book Pro's I had....) before they finally admitted that they had discovered a memory leak. A year ago they promised that they would be releasing version 4 which would fix it. The last time they promised the date it was meant to be released Sept 07. Need I say more. Now they're saying, no release date for v4, not even a release date for 3.7.8, which by the way, won't be fixing the memory leak. They don't listen, make excuses, and are in serious danger of losing all their professional users. I mean, when given the choice between the dreadful capture one 4 or the continuing non-functioning 3.7.7, learning Lightroom or Aperture becomes much more appealing.

    It's so ridiculous, it's almost funny.

    On the numerous occasions that I've told PhaseOne that the program freezes for 20 minutes at a time when uploading more than about 100 images into a session (I regularly shoot 400-600 images at a time), they told me that I should use multiple sessions! That's their idea of technical support and product development.....
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  • Alan Rei
    Joanna is correct, excuses, only excuses, 2 years of development for 4.0 is RIDICULOUS!!! What is that complicated? I mean, Lightroom may need 2 years because is a brand new program, not CaptureOne 4 that is an upgrade from 3.7...

    But the most ridiculous thing is that we only get excuses.

    By the way, P45 plus was announced first time in september 2006, shipping almost immediatly. It was shipped for first time in the mid of 2007! But this is not the point...

    WE NEED SOFTWARE SUPPORT!!! I don't care about 4.0 Pro anymore, I care about IMMADIATE SUPPORT for Leopard and for a BUG FREE software that cost 500 EUROS!!!!!!

    Ciao
    Alan
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  • Joanna 1
    I wonder what trading standards would have to say about it. Certainly an item of hardware under the sale of goods act has to be of merchantable quality for 5-10 years from the point of purchase, depending on the type of item. What about a piece of software that's been full of bugs from the start, and has never been of full merchantable quality? Anyone know the answer to that one?

    It's not surprising to see that on the main photographers' forums now, people are only talking about Lightroom, Aperture and CS3. C1Pro hardly even figures these days, having once been the most respected RAW converter. I still can't get over being told that it was unnecessary to shoot 400 images at a time, and that no other photographer had this requirement! I'm speechless.

    And PhaseOne have the nerve to send out repeated spam emails trying to get us to spend more money, when they haven't even fixed what we paid for.
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  • Alan Rei
    Joanna, I agree completely!
    PhaseOne had a reputation that now is absolutely LOST!
    I just wonder what the hell is going on with C1 Pro 4, because I feel they lost a lot of time around a project that will be old from the beginning.
    I don't know the future features of the future Pro release, but I think it will be really hard to have something better than Lightroom and maybe that in the time we will get the 4Pro, we will be able to use a Lightroom 3.0 version!!!

    Ciao
    Alan
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  • Alan Rei
    [quote="UlfLiljegren" wrote:
    Hello

    Alan

    To respond to some of the things you are saying:
    Plus series announcement is correct. We said we will start ship in Q1 -07 which we did. Customers was served on a first in first out basis and back orders where quite vast, to day we can deliver pretty much with in a few days of placing order.
    To have back orders on new product is nothing unique when working with this kind of products.

    CO4 has been delayed yes, primarily due the much more cumbersome maintenance of the 3.x platform. The first CO4 is a LE and as you say it does lack many of the PRO features but they will come onboard with CO4 PRO. We have to start somewhere right?

    3.7.8 has not been announced at all yet, but has been talked about when of course if we mention the next version, as logical number progression it will be 3.7.8

    CO4 does support 10.5 and next 3.7.x should as well however the implementation has more more difficult then we originally anticipated.

    But rest-assure that our programers are more pale then usual solving the issues at hand.



    I want to be more precise on answering you on the various points.

    1) PhaseOne is famous for announcing products that doesn't ship in time, we know it and we almost get used to it. But don't ask to accept it!
    2) Plus series was announced for availability at the end of 2006. It was available 6 months later at least.
    3) CO4 was initially announced to ship at the beginning of 2006, than in last quarter of 2006 for LE and first quarter of 2007 for PRO, with new plus series digital backs. We are almost in 2008 and we got a Beta LE.
    4) CO4 development is difficoult because of 3.X maintenance???? Are you serious? Do you have one programmer only on this two projects??? Please come on! Don't be ridicoulous. I hope partnership with Microsoft will help you with new development tools!!! AHAHAHAH!
    5) It is difficoult to implement 3.7.X under Leopard??? What a fantastic development department you got!!! Almost EVERY software is now fully compatible with Leopard, and I'm talking about very complex software like Adobe Creative Suite that of course have bugs, but it is practically usable and workable. Your software (I want remember you that it COSTS 500 Euros!!!) is unstable, missing functions and almost unusable in a professional way under Leopard.
    6) CO 3.7.8 was talked about way before Leopard was shipped. One of your representative here in the forum was announcing it in september as a future update for compatibility with new Canons and Nikons, as well as Leopard support. We are still waiting!
    7) I remember you that CO Pro costs 500Euros, unlike other softwares like FlexColor (that is free!!!) I cannot use it on more than 2 computers, I have no support for standards like DNG files, and I have less functionality than Camera RAW 3 that is old like Photoshop CS 2.
    😎 Please stop talking about future features of 4.0 because we just need a stable and usable version of C1 3 NOW so we can get the files from our 30.000 Euros digital backs and use those files in more functional and good programs like Lightroom!!!

    Thank you!
    Ciao
    Alan
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  • Ulf Liljegren
    Alan

    Dont use the forum just to blow of steam, it is against the forum rules and gets old very quickly.

    2) Plus series was announced for availability at the end of 2006. It was available 6 months later at least.

    Announced in 06 to be shipped in Q1 07, which we did! Ship start mid March.

    3) CO4 was initially announced to ship at the beginning of 2006, than in last quarter of 2006 for LE and first quarter of 2007 for PRO, with new plus series digital backs. We are almost in 2008 and we got a Beta LE.

    True, some what, but yes it has been very delayed, primarily to keep up support on CO3.

    4) CO4 development is difficoult because of 3.X maintenance???? Are you serious? Do you have one programmer only on this two projects??? Please come on! Don't be ridicoulous. I hope partnership with Microsoft will help you with new development tools!!! AHAHAHAH!

    We have many many programmers but it is on a scale which can be hard to comprehend. We are not Adobe with an army of programmers, but we are on a far better track record the our competitors in the digital back market field. And even if we was, many of the "big guys" some time release some stuff that is not to brilliant.


    5) It is difficoult to implement 3.7.X under Leopard??? What a fantastic development department you got!!! Almost EVERY software is now fully compatible with Leopard, and I'm talking about very complex software like Adobe Creative Suite that of course have bugs, but it is practically usable and workable. Your software (I want remember you that it COSTS 500 Euros!!!) is unstable, missing functions and almost unusable in a professional way under Leopard.

    Again hard to comprehend if you are not sitting with the code. We have a commitment and this will be solved.

    6) CO 3.7.8 was talked about way before Leopard was shipped. One of your representative here in the forum was announcing it in september as a future update for compatibility with new Canons and Nikons, as well as Leopard support. We are still waiting!

    No official release date has been publicly announced.

    7) I remember you that CO Pro costs 500Euros, unlike other softwares like FlexColor (that is free!!!) I cannot use it on more than 2 computers, I have no support for standards like DNG files, and I have less functionality than Camera RAW 3 that is old like Photoshop CS 2.
    Please stop talking about future features of 4.0 because we just need a stable and usable version of C1 3 NOW so we can get the files from our 30.000 Euros digital backs and use those files in more functional and good programs like Lightroom!!!

    Capture One DB is free and is equivelant to FlexColor. You can install it on as many computers as you like and you have a life time of free upgrades.

    Capture One PRO is a different story.
    Try to process a Canon file in flexcolor , CaptureShop or LeafCapture.

    We will continue talk about 4.0 when it is the future, it is a far superior platform which will make implementation of new features and cameras much much faster.

    [/list]
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  • Alan Rei
    I'm not here to get you or PhaseOne upset.
    I just don't understand the attitude of PhaseOne Software support.

    I can understand the difficulties on implementing new features, but I don't understand why a so expensive software is getting so buggy.

    Why PhaseOne doesn't concentrate on one and only one development path (4.0 Pro) and than "downgrade" it to other versions like LE.
    In this moment we have a broken 3.7X path, with no support for Leopard and no real optimization for Intel processors and a broken 4.X path (beta LE and no Pro version).
    This is like having two fronts in a war between titans! It is unmanageable.

    By the way, I really hope PhaseOne is going back to it's roots and the brand will be again famous for quality and support like it was, because I love the product (digital backs) and I hope this problems are just the consequences of a bad period that is ending. Maybe the loss of Hasselblad partnership and the departure of some people from the development team are the reasons of this situation.

    Hope for the future...

    Alan
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  • Geoff1
    Ulf Liljegen you would make a good politician. You seem to answer a question with another. Alan is not just blowing off steam he justs wants an answer like we all do...lots of people waited to upgrade their Macs until Leopard arrived and hoped that C1 would be compatable immediatley if not soon after. Even your own tech people on this forum said as much. All we want to know is WHEN will the compatability issue be resolved ? 1 week, 1 month can we have an ANSWER please. Giff 😡
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  • Ulf Liljegren
    Alan

    4 PRO is coming, what could have been done is to wait to release both at the same time, which will be a while from now, or release the version with less features, like we did, and let any one with a CO licenses take advantage of the speed and some other new features right now. I think the later is the best choice.

    The transition period until we have a full features CO4PRO will not be easy and there will be customers that is upset in this period but in the long run it is for the better.

    For the customers that was with us from the early days the Mac OS 9 (CO 2.9.2 which was the last Mac OS 9 native application which also run on Mac OS 10.2) and the leap to CO3 was also a transition period, there was teething problem for sure. But now there is no one that wants to go back.

    On another not, no real optimization for Intel? Capture One has been true Universal application since CO 3.7.4. We where the first camera back manufacturer to support Intel fully.

    I am sorry to say that I can not release release dates. Nor can we ever. This is handled by our product management dept. and the information will be on homepage and in newsletters. I can say it is soon but I am not sure this is precise enough to please you.
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  • Geoff1
    Are you there Production Department ?........sorry client we will get the processed images over sometime, yep, hold the copy date........they will be great when you get them......Giff
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  • Ulf Liljegren
    Lets conclude this.
    You can run it on Mac OS 10.5
    http://www.phaseone.com/HOME/Content/Su ... 20-%20Main

    I do it everyday with out any issues.
    Currently known issues is

    1. Installer issues (Fix above)
    2. CF card importer, workaround, drag and drop in finder.
    3. Connection issues with Canon. Incompatibility in the Canon components. Workaround use Canon software to accommodate connection.

    Maybe Apple should take back the TV ads about Vista? Hey I don't know..

    What I do know is that any IT guy will tell you about operating system and compatibility, it has been like this every time Microsoft or Apple release a new operating system, if you are in a production environment check compatibility before upgrading.

    Note that this is not me pushing blame, we should have CO fixed ASAP. But there is a reasons why Enterprise businesses do not implement latest and greatest right away before doing a compatibility and benefit study.


    Closing thread here, what needs to be said has been said at least once or twice or even more....
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