Where does C1 LE store the RAW changes?

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29 comments

  • Anonymous
    lain,

    Phase One's philosophy has always been to leave the RAW image data intact. Therefore, they are handled as Read Only files and are not altered in any way.

    The image adjustment data is stored within the .C1w files or Thumbnails which are located in the Preview Cache:
    C:\\Program Files \\ Phase One \\ Capture One LE \\ Previews

    These files are saved along with the RAWs for archiving. In the future, when a job is reloaded and .C1w files restored from archive, the images will have the same adjustments applied to Thumbnails, Previews, and Processed images.

    Sincerely,
    k c
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  • waple
    Does this mean that when we archive our files, we also have to copy the C1 files from a different location in order to save the associated data?

    For example, I have my photos on e:\\photos. When I archive I copy files from that folder. But if the C1 files are in c:, how do I keep them associated with the raw files if I restore them a year later?

    In Raw Shooter (which I use now, but I'm probably switching to C1), their files are stored in the same folder as the raws (actually, there in a subfolder, but still in the same tree), so when I archive, I copy the raws and the RS files at the same time to the same place.

    So I'm not sure how to archive and keep the raw files and C1 info synchronized.
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  • NN8930012
    [quote="waple" wrote:
    Does this mean that when we archive our files, we also have to copy the C1 files from a different location in order to save the associated data?
    So I'm not sure how to archive and keep the raw files and C1 info synchronized.

    I presume we have to save the folder specified for the previews which is very inconvenient I agree. RSP, ACR and Bibble all have the associated files in the same folder as the image.
    I also wonder why there are loads of files, e.g. C1P, C1W and UID....JPG.
    I presume the C1P files are previews becuase they are so large, and I'm guessing that the C1W files are the actual settings. What the UID ones are I don't know.
    It would be helpful if someone could shed some light on this.
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  • Anonymous
    continuing from above,

    The data that is saved:
    White Balance
    Color
    Crop
    Rotation
    Exposure Sliders
    Film Curve
    Sharpening
    Noise parameters
    MetaData


    These data are saved to each of the Work files or Thumbnails or .C1w files that reside in the Previews Cache.

    This Cache can be set to wherever you want , but if on a Server, the program will take a while to shutdown.
    Don't Presume, try it...
    When you archive, you can save the .C1w files Wherever You Want... Why not put them along with the RAWs, and why not create a subfolder if you want named ImageSettings or ArchiveFiles or C1w or what ever you want. how convenient is that ! 😉

    These files are only 1kb. The .C1p are the Previews and do not need to be saved/archived because they will rebuild upon reloading of a Session.
    If .C1w are archived, then when a Session is reloaded and these are restored, the Previews will take on all the image adjustments made.
    Archive = Workflow > Selected Capture Settings > Save to archive... and then Restore from archive...

    The UID files are the .C1w and .C1p files If you ever need to locate one specifically for a Session, i.e. it corrupts and needs rebuilt, then do a Ctrl+i in the program when Thumbnail selected and look to bottom of the meta data at the line for Settings File. Now a Search for that file will locate in the cache, can be deleted and then it will rebuild.
    Are they all neccessary? I reckon so, but I'm no Programmer 😄

    Cheers,
    k c
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  • NN8930012
    [quote="Keith Carpenter" wrote:
    When you archive, you can save the .C1w files Wherever You Want... Why not put them along with the RAWs, and why not create a subfolder if you want named ImageSettings or ArchiveFiles or C1w or what ever you want. how convenient is that ! 😉

    Thanks for clearing that up Keith.
    However, you say 'how convenient is that', but it's not as convenient as storing the settings files in the same place as the images which is what most RCs do! Then you don't have to worry about archiving specific folders non-related to the original images.
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  • Anonymous
    imacken,

    Sure you can do this, and in fact you will see that when you Save to archive... the default location is actually the Session folder where the RAWs reside.
    This is the method I do myself and teach in courses.
    By placing them within my Session folder right along with my RAWs, I know exactly where they are and they are easily restored.
    ...very convenient indeed !

    Sincerely,
    k c
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  • NN8930012
    [quote="Keith Carpenter" wrote:
    Sure you can do this, and in fact you will see that when you Save to archive... the default location is actually the Session folder where the RAWs reside.
    This is the method I do myself and teach in courses.
    By placing them within my Session folder right along with my RAWs, I know exactly where they are and they are easily restored.
    ...very convenient indeed !

    Sorry Keith, I'm not trying to be pedantic, but I just can't see what you mean.
    Part of my workflow (like most other people) is to back up my images to DVD. when I have used RSP or Bibble or ACR, I didn't have to worry about losing any settings files as all I did was save the image folders (usually by date).
    Unless I'm mistaken, what you are suggesting is to archive the settings to a folder which defaults to the collection folder. At best this is another step, but at worst, it means previewing every subfolder, then saving the settings each time in order to achieve the simple structure that other RCs do by default.
    What is the benefit in not storing the settings with the images?
    Am I misunderstanding what you are saying?
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  • waple
    Okay, I just tried this. If you are in a folder with a bunch of pics you've just edited in C1, then click Workflow -> Selected Capture Settings -> Save to Archive, you get a prompt for where you want to save the settings, and when I did it, it was the current folder. When I saved it and opened the folder in windows explorer, there was a new file with a .c1w extension. I'm assuming this is the work file which will store all the numerical adjustments I made. If I selected all the files in the folder and did the save to archive, it made a .cw1 file for every .raw.

    If I delete the preview cache, just the preview files are removed. When I open the folder again, c1 needs to remake the preveiws, which only takes a second per photo. However, if I had saved the archive file *.c1w, the settings will still be there for me.

    When I do a backup to DVD, it will copy the RAW files, and the .c1w file(s) since they're all in the same working folder.

    My only question is, how is Save different from Archive?
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  • NN8930012
    [quote="waple" wrote:
    When I do a backup to DVD, it will copy the RAW files, and the .c1w file(s) since they're all in the same working folder.

    Only if you've physically made the effort to save (archive) them there in the first place!
    This is how it works alright, but it's still a mess isn't it? I mean, I store my images automatically using Downloader PRO into folders with the structure year/month/(shooting)date. Periodically, I backup to DVD by simply selecting the image folders that I want. Until I started using C1 this meant also that the RAW settings files were also saved without me even thinking. If I was to do this now using C1, I'd have to go to every folder where the images are stored, and archive the settings to make sure that the latest are kept!
    Unless I'm missing something, that is an absolute nightmare!
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  • Anonymous
    waple,
    File > SAVE or Ctrl+S saves the current image adjustment settings to the .C1w files within the Preview Cache.
    There are also the Preferences > Save Options settings for this.
    Default is Save on Exit and Save when changing image

    Under Workflow > Selected Capture Settings are:
    Restore = Steps image settings back to previous settings in .C1w file
    Save = Applied changes to image are saved to .C1w file
    Reset = Clears ALL the image settings to default values


    imacken,

    Yes, if you move or archive RAW files to another location and want to Save/Archive the image adjustment settings data within the .C1w files, you will have to put forth some effort.
    I find this to require all of about 6 seconds whether I have 100 images in a Session or 1,000.

    Ctrl + A to select All Thumbnails
    Clik Workflow
    Selected capture settings... Clik Save to Archive...
    Clik Ok
    Clik Ok
    Done...


    This has been an astounding Non-Issue for Capture One users.
    No Support Cases or Feature Requests for change have been submitted.
    Absolute Nightmare is quite extreme I'd say 😕

    Sincerely,
    k c
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  • waple
    I guess the real confusion is the difference between the files in the Preview folder and the ones that you archive in the work folder and the fact that there are .cw1 files in both. Just seems like it'd be easier to put them all in the working directory with the raws from the start, and let that be that.

    Frankly, I'm still not sure what the difference is.
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  • NN8930012
    [quote="Keith Carpenter" wrote:
    Yes, if you move or archive RAW files to another location and want to Save/Archive the image adjustment settings data within the .C1w files, you will have to put forth some effort.
    I find this to require all of about 6 seconds whether I have 100 images in a Session or 1,000.
    Ctrl + A to select All Thumbnails
    Clik Workflow
    Selected capture settings... Clik Save to Archive...
    Clik Ok
    Clik Ok
    Done...

    This has been an astounding Non-Issue for Capture One users.
    No Support Cases or Feature Requests for change have been submitted.
    Absolute Nightmare is quite extreme I'd say 😕

    Keith
    The terms used were extreme and I'm sorry about that.
    I'm still struggling here though, and it's probably because I'm not using the program correctly.
    Let me get this straight, if I have say 100 image folders that I want to archive, are you saying that with one application of Ctrl-A I can select ALL the thumbnails?
    How do I do that?
    Thanks
    Iain
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  • waple
    Yes! Now I get it!

    Imacken, I think the probem that we were having is that we and Keith were both using the word "archive", but in different ways.

    The way that C1 uses the archive feature is this.

    You have a folder with the days downloaded shots. let's call the folder 2006-07-16. In that folder, you'll initially have just the raw files.

    Now, you open up C1 and start making changes to the pics. Two new files will be created in the Preview folder (you set this folder under Preferences -> Preview Cache. If you look in that folder, you'll have a ton of .c1p and .c1w files.

    .c1p files are the preview info. If you keep these files, the thumbnails will display quickly when you open the folder in c1. If they are gone, c1 will have to remake the previews.

    .c1w files are the work files. These save the actual data like exposure and white balance changes. If you delete these files from the preview folder, all your changes will be lost and you'll just have the initial raw file.

    Okay, now that that's done, and we've edited our work, we want to put the files to CD. We then open the folder in c1 and select all the thumbnails, then click on Workflow -> Selected Capture Settings -> Save to Archive. You'll get a prompt asking whre to save these files, and from what I've seen, it always defaults to the current folder (which is what we want). What happens when you do this save to archive, is c1 will now save the .c1w files to the folder that your raw files are in. The folder you want to copy to cd has the raw files and the c1 work files. So if you delete everything out of the preview cache, and two years from now want to edit these pictures again, you just copy everything from your archive cd, and your raw files and the c1 edit data will be there. Viola!

    I hope this helps. I am glad that I finally get it now. The problem is that c1 calls this function "save to archive" but in reality, all it's doing is copying the work files to the same folder the raw files are in (which should have been done in the first place if you ask me). The function should be called something like "Merge Work and Raw Files".

    Perhaps a future release will make it a little more clear.
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  • NN8930012
    waple,
    I see what you're saying, and that certainly makes it more clear, but I still don't see how this helps.
    I have my images organised by shooting date - done automatically by DLP - and tend to archive to DVD the latest 5Gb every month (or less if it's been a busy one!)
    So, I may have 30-60 folders that get put on DVD. If I understand you (and Keith) correctly, I would have to manually tell C1 to copy the settings to each folder. That's 30-60 operations to get the settings into the same folder as the original image. Is that correct?
    Also, I may go back and edit the same images later. So, I cannot be sure at any point in time that the settings that have been put in by C1's 'archive' process are the latest ones for my 'archiving'! This surely means repeating the exercise described above.
    This whole thing is a lot more cumbersome than the default C1 procedure, i.e. have all the settings in the one folder. In that case, all you have to do is remember to copy that folder during the 'archive to DVD' activity.
    To this end, I have now set this folder to be inside my main images drive, so that least it appears when I'm archiving.
    Iain
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  • waple
    [quote="imacken" wrote:
    So, I may have 30-60 folders that get put on DVD. If I understand you (and Keith) correctly, I would have to manually tell C1 to copy the settings to each folder. That's 30-60 operations to get the settings into the same folder as the original image. Is that correct?

    Well, you don't have to manually copy the settings. However, if you've been using c1 for a while and haven't archived (copied the work files into the raw folders... again, I don't like the word archived in the sense C1 uses it), then you will have to open each folder and press the Save to Archive button. But that's all you have to do. It's a VERY easy process.

    In the future, make it a habit to press the Save to Archive button every time you're done working on your raws.

    [quote="imacken" wrote:
    Also, I may go back and edit the same images later. So, I cannot be sure at any point in time that the settings that have been put in by C1's 'archive' process are the latest ones for my 'archiving'! This surely means repeating the exercise described above.


    If you wanted to go back and edit pictures a year later, you would simply copy the files (both raw and the .c1w files that were 'archived' before you made the DVD) back to your hard drive. This will mean that you are working with the same files and settings as the last time you opened them before DVD archival.

    My assumption is that c1 is smart enough to know to use the work files that are in the work folder rather than any files that are in the preview folder. Can anyone verify this?
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  • NN8930012
    [quote="waple" wrote:
    [quote="imacken" wrote:
    Also, I may go back and edit the same images later. So, I cannot be sure at any point in time that the settings that have been put in by C1's 'archive' process are the latest ones for my 'archiving'! This surely means repeating the exercise described above.

    If you wanted to go back and edit pictures a year later, you would simply copy the files (both raw and the .c1w files that were 'archived' before you made the DVD) back to your hard drive. This will mean that you are working with the same files and settings as the last time you opened them before DVD archival.

    What I was meaning was that you can never be sure that the 'archived' C1W file is the latest one. You may have backed up to DVD, gone back to edit the RAW, and so the 'archived' c1w file (by C1) is not the latest one. I don't remove images from my HD, I just back them up to DVD.
    Keith is probably going to get annoyed by this thread, but I have to say, it is so much easier with ACR, Bibble, RSP etc. when the settings files are stored within the image folder (or subfolder).
    But... each to his own.
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  • waple
    [quote="imacken" wrote:
    What I was meaning was that you can never be sure that the 'archived' C1W file is the latest one. You may have backed up to DVD, gone back to edit the RAW, and so the 'archived' c1w file (by C1) is not the latest one.


    But wouldn't this be the case with any program? If you were using Raw Shooter and copied the RS folder (I don't remember the folder name it creates) to DVD, then modified the images on the HD, you'd be in the same boat. The copies on the DVD would now be older than what's on the HD.

    [quote="imacken" wrote:
    Keith is probably going to get annoyed by this thread, but I have to say, it is so much easier with ACR, Bibble, RSP etc. when the settings files are stored within the image folder (or subfolder).
    But... each to his own.


    The ONLY difference that I can see between how c1 does this and other programs is that you have to press the "save to archive" button rather than the data being stored there manually. I do agree that the c1w should automatically be stored in the raw folder though. But I think that once you remember to hit that "save to archive" button before you exit the program, you have it working just the same as the others.
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  • NN8930012
    [quote="waple" wrote:
    [quote="imacken" wrote:
    What I was meaning was that you can never be sure that the 'archived' C1W file is the latest one. You may have backed up to DVD, gone back to edit the RAW, and so the 'archived' c1w file (by C1) is not the latest one.

    But wouldn't this be the case with any program? If you were using Raw Shooter and copied the RS folder (I don't remember the folder name it creates) to DVD, then modified the images on the HD, you'd be in the same boat. The copies on the DVD would now be older than what's on the HD.

    I'm obviously not explaining myself very well!!!
    My point is that with all the other progs, any archiving to DVD (maybe on more than one occasion), will ALWAYS include the latest settings file as is it is included in the image (sub)folder. With C1 you have to make an additional step for each folder to ensure that the latest is 'archived'.
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  • waple
    I understand that and agree. However, as it is now, that "additional step" that you mention only consists of pressing one button. After you simply choose that one command, it's then on par with all the other programs.

    This was my original qualm with the program as well, but after I saw just how easy it is to get those files into the folder they should be in, it's really a non-issue to me now.
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  • NN8930012
    [quote="waple" wrote:
    I understand that and agree. However, as it is now, that "additional step" that you mention only consists of pressing one button. After you simply choose that one command, it's then on par with all the other programs.

    This'll be my last post on this - I promise, well maybe!
    Surely the point is that it isn't 'pressing one button'. It's pressing one button for one folder, selecting the next, then pressing the button again and so on until all the folders are done, EVERY time you do an archive to DVD. Seems like dozens of presses to me.
    I'm not trying to be akward or criticise C1, but if I am not understanding how this works then please correct me!
    Thanks
    Iain
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  • Anonymous
    No worries about me being annoyed ... Life is way too short to be annoyed much 😂

    Don't forget a previous post:
    File > SAVE or Ctrl+S saves the current image adjustment settings to the .C1w files within the Preview Cache.
    There are also the Preferences > Save Options settings for this.
    Default is Save on Exit and Save when changing image


    With Preferences settings the way you want there'll be no extra cliking and you will always update / save current adjustments.

    Imagine if you will someone who does not save / archive image settings at all.
    They exist more that you know. There is usually not much time spent in adjusting or they send to lab who does final color and density adjustments.
    Sessions that are shot very consistently really take no time at all to work through WB-Exposure-Focus to be done.

    If you Archive .C1w files this year for your XYZ printer, and then next year or 2 you may have a new ABC printer, will you have to adjust all over again with a new profile.?
    Also imagine those with a set-up so they never have to Save/Archive image settings. They remain in place and are backed-up on large servers or other systems where .C1w files are always current and available.

    Some of the other programs actually alter the original RAW with adjustment data. This has never been Phase One's philosophy.
    With the forthcoming version 4.0 being completely re-written for Windows, it will be interesting to see where these image adjustment data get written to.

    Don't know what else to say except that again, it has been a non-issue for folks. And as always, anyone with ideas to make this more efficient and improved are welcome to submit a Feature Request via a Support Case.

    Cheers,
    k c
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  • waple
    Keith, could you please verify that everything I've said in the last few posts of mine is correct? I think I have it figured out, but I want to be sure that I'm not saying anything that's wrong.

    But since I've figured it out, I'm back to leaning toward C1. Have a few days left in my trial and I want to use every bit of it so I know for sure.
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  • Anonymous
    waple,

    Yes, indeed you are correct and understand these functions.

    Archive to me is removing images from a workstation to be Stored/Backed-up... archived... just as film negatives were stored in that room on the shelves until needed again.

    When you do reload RAW images into a Session, the .C1w/Thumbnail files will rebuild along with the .C1p/Previews.
    When you Restore from archive... the new ones are overwritten by the originals and all image adjustments are re-established.

    Cheers,
    k c
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  • dleepenn
    I do agree that the process that C1 uses for storing the settings files is a very poor design. What I would like to see is the following approach:

    Associated with the SESSION/WORKFLOW name would be settings for where to save the settings files and where to save the conversion output files from processing.

    Defaulting to saving the settings files in the same subdirectory as the RAW images would also be a better design than the current one IMO.

    The basic issue here is that one can never assume that the archived settings will match up with all the images unless you re-archive the whole subdirectory and this is a pain.

    In my case, I manage my folders by project and then date within project. I also keep separate folders under my project name for RAW and DEVELOPES. Under those two subfolders, I keep folders by date. When I have a large number of images (over 1,000 for a project), this really helps keep things under control but really is a problem if I want to keep archives of the settings.

    I also ran into an interesting problem. I moved a whole project from my laptop to my desktop. All the C1 edits had been made on my laptop during a project that spanned a whole month. Each RAW subfolder by date has as many as 400 images.

    After copying my RAWS from my laptop to my Desktop, I opened up a folder. It took a while for C1 to rebuild the thumbnails and settings files. If I tried a select ALL prior to the complete thumbnail selection, it would only select a portion of the images and my Save Archive then was not complete. I had to wait patiently for the rebuilding of preview data to complete before I could do my archive.

    Restoring the archive is also pretty slow.

    Lee
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  • Wade
    [quote="Keith Carpenter" wrote:

    Don't know what else to say except that again, it has been a non-issue for folks. And as always, anyone with ideas to make this more efficient and improved are welcome to submit a Feature Request via a Support Case.


    Well I can't speak for anyone else but I find this design somewhat poor. However, up until now I have not considered it a big enough issue to warrant complaining about.

    Whilst it is true that it is not a big operation to 'archive' c1w files to the session folder, it is a step which has to be performed each and every time that I use CO in order that I can later simply point my archiving software at the session folder in order to get all of my raw files and settings files archived to offline media. If I forget to do this, then I get the situation whereby my offline media starts to contain out of date settings files.

    Similarly, should I wish to retrieve images and settings from offline media, I have to restore them to a session folder, I then have to open the session folder, wait for all the preview cache files to build (because CO will not let me restore the settings files before the preview cache is built) and then restore the settings files, at which point the preview files have to be built again.

    If, however, the settings files were always stored in the session folder, then I would not have to worry about the possibility of copying out of date settings files to my offline media and the archiving to the session folder step would be eliminated. Retrieving from offline storage would be every bit as simple and would involve building the preview cache files only once.

    Of course, one thing I don't want is for the c1p files to be stored in the session folder. I am perfectly happy to leave the c1p files where they are!
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  • dleepenn
    OK Keith: Heres the start of a change request. I'd like to hash it out here in this thread before formally posting it to my support case.

    Support a new preferences setting for the "setting's" files; i.e. the c1w files. This preference would have C1Pro placing the c1w files into a subfolder called "settings" underneath the RAWS working folder.

    This would mean that If I have my raws in a folder called
    ...projectname\\raws
    then C1Pro would automatically create a subfolder called settings:
    ...projectname\\raws\\settings and would store all the .c1w files in this folder

    In a special example of how I use folders, I have a project named
    2006Wakatobi with separate subfolders for RAWS and DEVELOPES...

    2006Wakatobi\\RAWS and 2006Wakatobi\\DEVELOPES

    For each shooting day, I create a subfolder in the RAWS and the DEVELOPES folders with the date...

    2006Wakatobi\\RAWS\\20060521 (raws stored in here)
    and
    2006Wakatobi\\DEVELOPES\\20060521 (conversion files stored here)

    C1 would then create a subfolder settings....

    2006Wakatobi\\RAWS\\20060521\\settings and would store all the working c1w files here.

    I'd leave the c1p files back in the master folder that is used now.

    I'd like to see some discussion between interested parties to see if this approach would work or not or if it needs to be tweaked somehow.

    Lee
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  • dleepenn
    Here's a puzzle. According to one Macintosh user of C1Pro, he says that on the MAC platform, the c1w files ARE stored with the RAWS.

    As I understand it, the MAC and WIN versions are supposed to be the same. Does this mean that the future 4.0 version for WIN will store the settings files within the RAW directory?
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  • waple
    I like that suggestion dleepenn. the 'settings' folder in the working folder would work great. I'm still quite baffled as to why they're store in a separate folder in the first place.
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  • Anonymous
    This is correct... but here's the Rest of the Story...

    On Mac, the Session folder contains the subfolder of RAW images Captures which contains...
    the CaptureOneSettings subfolder...
    Which contains 3 subfolders:
    1-ImageSettings folder = the Image adjustment data
    2 - Previews
    3 - Thumbnails

    A Mac user who wants to Archive/Save these settings must copy the ImageSettings folder or the contents thereof in order to do so.
    Yes, very similar to Windows, maybe even a little More effort to save the adjustment data is required.
    Yes, they could save the entire folder of course, but then they would take up more space with the unneeded Thumbnails and Previews.

    ...This DOG is DEAD... This Thread is now Locked ! 🤓

    Regards,
    k c
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