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Keywords disappear / wrong thumbnails / rename function does not work

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25 comments

  • OddS.

    > Väinö Louekar: Keywords disappear

    Welcome to the world of image metadata :-)

    C1 keeps metadata (keywords and more) internal, inside the catalog or session that is. C1 can update metadata, but the new metadata may arrive from multiple sources, not only from the computer keyboard. With multiple input sources comes order dependency. The last input always wins.

    If you have set up C1 to automatically update its internal metadata by reading metadata from the image file (or its sidecar xmp file), you may experience a scenario where you first enter new/updated metadata via the keyboard, while C1 the next second reads (old) metadata from the image file (or sidecar) and updates internal metadata, in effect overwriting data just entered via the keyboard. Open C1 Preferences -> Image and set Auto Sync sidecar XMP to "None" and see if you can make new keywords stick.

    Previews are slightly different than keywords, but C1 essentially expects to be in full control. The main rule is: Do not mess with image data behind C1's back.

    It is certainly possible to change keyboard shortcuts. You should verify that Image Rename is set to F2 and fix it if not (Edit menu, Keyboard Shortcuts...)

    On one of my own user-unfriendly keyboards the function keys have dual functionality. There is a dedicated "Fn" key to toggle between F key functions, but alas no indicator to tell which one is in use. My F2 may mean F2 or "increase monitor brightness". Make sure your F2 key sends the normal F2 keycode and not some "adjust something" command to the computer. 

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  • Väinö Louekari

    OddS., many thanks for Your input, I appreciate.  I checked the preferences, Auto Sync was set to None. But below that "Prefer Sidecar XMP Over Embedded Metadata" was selected, so I unselected that. I¨ll see if that helps, but somehow I doubt...

    As for the renaming problem, I created a Custom Set and tried different combinations, not just F-combinations, but also Ctlr+ something. No luck. And the strange thing is, all the other F-keys work just fine (F5, F7 and so on). I also have a dual functionality keyboard but mine has an indicator, so that was the first thing I checked:) All in all it looks like rename function itself is somehow broken. But surely that can not be the case... As I wrote, I can still rename by just overwriting the old name below the image thumbnail. 

    All in all bit of a shame because I really like the software.

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  • SFA

    Hi Väinö

     

    For 1)  - Do you mean that your hierarchical structure has disappeared from the Catalog Keyword list (or some other Keyward Library list) you can choose from or that the KWs have disappeared from the Image Variant?

     

    For 2) - Do you mean you have added images to the Source Image folder from an outside source? And is this the fist time you have opened that folder since adding the images?

     

    For 3) F2 is available and working in my 13.1.2 installation. It opens the Image Name field in the Browser,. I can do the same thing by clicking on the name in the browser. In running on Window 7.

    If you have your own Keyboard Shortcuts definitions, open the Shortcuts editor function, set the search option to "Key", hit the F2 key and see what you get.

    If it is associated with Rename but does not work there may be some dynamic configuration setting or temporary workfile that is disrupting normal operations.

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  • Väinö Louekari

    Thank You for Your comment SFA, much appreciated.

    1) Keyword has disappeared totally. From the list and from all the images. With Reload Metadata the keyword returns to the list and to the images. But often it will disappear again. And again.

    2) No, I have not added new variants from an outside source. Either they were old variants that I added before I even had the C1  and that already existed when I installed C1, or they were added by C1.

    3) The point is, I can not get any shortcut to do Rename. Other shortcuts work just fine.

    "sigh"

     

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  • OddS.

    > Väinö Louekari: No, I have not added new variants from an outside source. Either they were old variants that I added before I even had the C1 and that already existed when I installed C1, or they were added by C1.

    "Variant" is a C1 term that confuses many users. I guess SFA refers to C1 variants while you probably refer to image files.

     

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  • SFA

    Hi Väinö,

     

    For the Keywords:

    Your description suggests that the missing KW(s) maybe exist in the Source file. I.E. they are embedded in the source file either from a previous application or by including them as Metadata in an Output file from Capture One.

    If they have been added to a variant in Capture One they will be included in the edit information part of the catalogue database or the .cos file in a Session.

    Since you have no Auto Sync happening I think those are the only two options.  It would probably be useful to know whether the Source File does indeed have the missing KW embedded in it AND whether the C1 edit instruction DO NOT have the KW embedded.

    I have some thoughts about what might be happening but the ideas will likely only be worth considering on the basis of the answers to those 2 questions, especially whether the missing KW, perhaps complete with a hierarchy structure, is present in the source file.

     

     

    For the Thumbnails:

    If new files have been added to a folder by C1 as part of some process but that folder was not open and active at the time, C1 will not have "imported" or ingested the files.

    So when you then open the folder C1 finds new files and needs to generate Thumbnail and Preview files.

    Thumbnails for previously known images being presented and loaded into memory now the folder is being opened may remain in place once presented tot eh screen while the real thumbnails and previews are created for the newly discovered files.

    That's the theory. Could that be what is happening?

     

    For the Shortcuts:

     

    Still thinking about that one. I would guess it might be commented to something like a userconfig file glitch (or personalised Shortcut file glitch, but need to confirm some thoughts before suggesting possible ideas for eliminating the problem.

     

    You could try just creating a new shortcut definition file and then see if you can get the F2 to work with it. Or simply try the default definitions if you have not tried that already.

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  • Väinö Louekari

    Thank You again SFA:)

    Keywords: Yes, keywords are embedded in the image files. That information came when I migrated the LR catalog. But when C1 started losing keywords I also set new keywords via C1. And those keywords may also disappear. As for wheather C1 edit instruction do not have the keyword embedded, I am afraid You lost me there: I thought it will write the keywords in a catalogue anyway? As I wrote, in preferences auto sync is off, prefer embedded XMP is off and  prefer sidecar XMP is off. 

     

    Thumbnails: Yes, the folder is open and active when adding images. And shouldn't C1 be able to generate right thumbnails in any case when the folder is opened again? What I get is wrong thumbnails for often very old variants that were created long before I even installed C1. 

     

    Shortcuts: Yes, I have created new definitions and I have tried default definitions. Everything elso but Rename works. 

     

    SFA Many thanks for Your concern and time, I really do appreciate. But as things are, I really can not do any useful work with C1. I either work with my photography or fight this software. I can't do both. Still I think C1 is a great software, really. If only it were more robust and stable.

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  • SFA

    Hi Väinö,

     

    I agree with your sentiment about stability but then stability is pretty much what I experience.

    However, I use sessions and I don't have any of the potential challenges that would be quite likely to come with importing from another application's data. Lucky for me - not so lucky for you, but it should be possible to work out the reasons and find a way to resolve the problems.

     

    Lets consider shortcuts for a moment, since that would not seem to be an imported problem.

     

    I'll be honest and say I have never, until today, even tried the F2 option.

    I'll do some investigation later (busy for the next hour or so) to see if I can come up with some suggestions.

    The other matters may take a little longer to work out what to suggest!

     

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  • Väinö Louekari

    Hello again SFA:)

    Well yes, all this may be my fault, I understand that:) Even so I have no idea where I have gone wrong and what to do about it:) I do not have a faintest idea about sessions, maybe I should. Can I use a session with, say, 60 000 - 70 000 images?  Would that solve all my problems and assure an eternal peace for the whole world:)? 

    F2 problem or Rename problem is not that serious, Batch Rename which I usually use works fine and I can just overwrite the name. I can live with that. But those keywords....

     

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  • Väinö Louekari

    Exactly my problem also:) So there is two of us:)

    Väinö

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  • SFA

    Out of interest does the F2 key work directly in Windows or other applications on your systems?

    I ask as it is supposed to be a Standard Windows Function key.

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  • SFA

    OddS wrote

    "> Väinö Louekari: No, I have not added new variants from an outside source. Either they were old variants that I added before I even had the C1 and that already existed when I installed C1, or they were added by C1.

    "Variant" is a C1 term that confuses many users. I guess SFA refers to C1 variants while you probably refer to image files."

     

    Well, sort of.

    I guessed that Väinö might have been using Variant in the same way that C1 uses it. So an "original" source image or a C1 type of "variation of an image edit" variant.

     

    @ Väinö

    Yes C1 should be able to create Thumbnails and Previews and will do so as far as I know. However while working with C1 the information in the catalogue (or session) will have been loaded into memory for faster access. But clearly the larger the number of images the more challenging it is likely to be to get all the possibly required working information into available memory. This is true of sessions which may contain just a few images (maybe all can be loaded into memory), a few hundred images (maybe most can be loaded but some memory management will likely be required) or several tens of thousands of images in a catalogue. (Unlikely that all can be loaded into memory so some on-demand management is very likely).

     

    In theory the normal workflow for a catalogue is to make some images, import them into a catalogue and as part of that process C1 will create thumbnails and previews. This creation activity may continue after the "import" part of the process has completed and the first of the images loaded have already been processed to the point that they can be displayed.

    That situation can be managed even if the catalogue is already being actively used because the import process is still managing the batch of loaded images.

    If, in the other hand, images have been added to a folder without going through the Import process  - i.e. they have simply been copied into a folder, have been skipped over previously for some reason or are part of a "round trip" activity to an external software application, C1 may need to create the Thumbnails and Previews as it discovers them. This may take it a few seconds or maybe a few minutes depending on how many files are discovered. In the meantime the images already pre-loaded into memory (if the are any) for the current work activity are likely displayed in an order that suits the work flow and so can be presented to the user BUT may now need to be re-sorted to take into account the newly discovered images.

     

    There is some potential at that point for the activity of presenting the images to the user to have some temporary synchronisation timing challenges at that point. Or maybe get out of step in a way that is not easily resolved in some circumstances.

    Could that be what you are seeing?

    For your sessions question, sessions would normally be used for a shoot of some sort or a project on a specific subject and while the number of images may be quite large for some people they are probably rarely more then a few thousand shots.

    The basic edit functionality is the almost same but handled differently in terms of where and how the edit related data is stored.  Catalogues offer more DAM capability in some ways. Sessions can be highly portable and useful for people travelling or using multiple locations and computer systems. Sessions do not require images to be imported and some people like to work that way basing their approach to image file management on Folders they create and manage while working with multiple applications all editing the same files.

    There is a useful recent Video  of a Webinar that discusses and compares the two approaches.

    It is entirely possible to use both according to need (Unless using one of the Express versions of C1 in which case only a catalogue is available.)

    I'll get back to the Keywords questions later.

    It sounds like 20.1.3  (13.1.3 build release) exhibits a problem that has not been present before for the F2 matter.

    I certainly do not see the problem in 20.1.2.

    I will check 20.1.3 (using Win 7) ASAP. I have yet to complete the installation process.

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  • OddS.

    > SFA: I guessed that Väinö might have been using Variant in the same way that C1 uses it. So an "original" source image or a C1 type of "variation of an image edit" variant.

    Of course, but to me Väinö Louekari's passage "...they were old variants that I added before I even had the C1 and that already existed when I installed C1...", implies a C1-variant existed before C1, in contrast to being created by C1.

    @Väinö: A C1-variant is a dataset created by C1. That dataset kind of sits between the image file and the displayed image. You can have C1 create multiple datasets or variants per image file for different expressions. Those datasets, C1-variants, share some, but not all information. That is why I wanted to alert you.   

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  • Väinö Louekari

    Hello all and thank You again.

    Yes, F2 does work anywhere elso, just not in C1.

    When I wrote "...they were old variants that I added before I even had the C1 and that already existed when I installed C1..." I ment the following: In Lr or in Ps I would create a copy of an image and rename in: 1234.psd and 123a.psd. So that would be doen outside C1. And then in C1 123a.psd would have a wrong thumbnail image. 

    Just a thought: it takes some time for C1 to load the catalog of about 60 000 images. Mayby I should wait until the whole catalog is loaded before making any changes into keywords? 

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  • SFA

    Let us briefly consider Keyword sources.

    For a newly introduced image (including but probably rarely for Keywords) RAW files we have ...

     

    1. Metadata Embedded in the source file by the camera or some previous software.
    2. Metadata for the source file coming form another "system" via a sidecar file (typically XMP format). This requires some for of synchronisation with the XMP Sidecar file. Potentially, even if not actually in the case being discussed, that external data is variable and needs to be re-checked regularly. The way that C1 works means that check would need to be at least every time the file's data had to be read for editing or cataloguing purposes.
    3. Metadata added to the Capture One edit instruction file related to an image (at the variant level if the image have different versions). The Keywords could be added "manually" or possibly added via a "Preset" or perhaps a "Style" during import. The method for adding is not important. That they can be added is all that matters at this point.

    If option 2 is not being used in this problem example that leaves 1 and 3 as the sources of Keyword association that we need to consider.

    The keywords for a Session of catalogue created from discovered Keyword content. Separate Keyword libraries may also be employed as sources of words usually gather and loaded into C1 as approved sets for certain subject matters. These Libraries will typically remain available unless removed. To remove Keyword content from the library they may need to be edited as Library files outside C1 (as far as I am aware.)  However Keywords select from KW Libraries can be deleted (where they pre-exist) from currently selected variants.

    Where a hierarchical Keyword structure has been used from a C1 created set of KWs or a hierarchically structured imported library a KW that is at level 2 of the hierarchy or lower will be indicated as hierarchical with a point back to its "parent" visible. At least it will at the time of use.

     

    Is this what is happening when used up to this point, viewing any KWs that already are embedded in the source image and adding more in Capture One?

     

    ETA: As a note at this point, Adobe's Hierarchical KW functionality and structure is different to Capture One. Interpretation from one application to another may not produce common results. It is possible that the KWs that were hierarchical in, say, Lightroom, are not hierarchical if "imported" with an image from a Lightroom catalogue.

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  • Väinö Louekari

    Hello and thank You again.

     

    "Is this what is happening when used up to this point, viewing any KWs that already are embedded in the source image and adding more in Capture One?"

    I don't think so. I am losing KWs from images migrated via LR catalog. That means images that have not been manipulated in C1. They lose a level 2 KW and I can bring the KW (that is, the original KWset from imported LR catalog) back with Reload Metadata. But the same KW might disappear again. So the hierarchy is there, C1 reads it fine. Also I may lose KWs set in C1.

    I fail to understand why I am losing just a few level 2 KWs. It may be a KW that I have not used even once in C1 (say, a name of a person without any new images) or it may be a KW that I have used in C1. But all in all I have lost maybe half a dozen KWs but some of them several times. I can't see the logic of all this.

     

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  • SFA

    Hi Väinö,

    Are the LR generated KW's embedded for the source files by LR (or some other app for that matter) or are they in sidecar files in both LR and C1?Is the parent KW (Level 1)  also in the hierarchy used by other level 2 KWs?

    Is there a specific pattern you can identify that will lead to the (temporary?) disappearance of KW's (always level 2 or below?) added using C1?

     

    And finally if there are missing KWs (either LR or C1 created) that disappear does a Reload (or a change of some type in an edit) always bring them back?

     

    Have you ever seen a situation in which, for example, an LR imported image has 2 or more LR created KWs at level 2 where one (or several)  of the level 2 keywords is always retained but another (or others) are temporarily lost? Can the problem occur in the middle of and editing period or is it something that only seems to occur on first opening of the Catalog?

    I'm wondering if the apparent problem is something to do with managing working memory or temporary work files when a large number of files are involved.

     

    C1 will pre-load image data into memory and temporary work files attempting to anticipate which images you might be likely to work on. The idea is that if you are stepping through a shoot on some specified sort order the editing experience will be faster if the order is predicted and likely next images are pre-loaded in memory. If the number of images in the target list is large or your editing activity turns out to be more random than predicted, it may be necessary to revise the selection by dumping some records from memory and bringing in others.

    If you bring an image in for the first time (i.e. not pre-loaded) all of the read activity will be required and you should get a full the complete data set. A Reload would do the same thing.  It might possibly seem to take a little longer for the image to appear.

    However if for some reason C1 found an apparently related temporary work file for the image from previous activity that at the time it was last generated was not "complete" it might use that file at first not knowing it was incomplete or that a Reload was required.

     

    That's speculation on my part but I have found orphaned temporary workfiles lying around in Windows on many occasions. Sometimes it seems to take several attempts (reboots) before the Windows clean up facility can complete its work. Sometimes they never disappear without direct intervention. In theory their unique identities should mean they are ignored by current processes but maybe that is not always the case or, if this is at all relevant to what you are seeing, whatever the process is doing means that the work files (or something similar) are still relevant to the current editing activities.

    I think I am probably not able to test this theory at all since I do not have a large catalog to work with and, probably more importantly, do not have an LR created catalog to import from so no similar database is available to me.

     

    That KW's added via C1 seem to temporarily disappear is a bit strange but might be explained if one assumes that the C1 data could be read first and then the LR originated data that contains an example of the hierarchy but not the specific level 2 word added in C1.  For that to happen might suggest a different process order for some reason.

    However something like that would surely be more likely if some form of Synchronisation of Metadata was active and you previous response to OddS suggests that you have no special instructions set to be used. In any case if there were one might expect them to be applied at both  initial load and any subsequent reload activity whether that was initiated by the user or by C1's need to update data in memory.

     

    There are some detailed log files available but whether they include records at the level of detail required for in memory refresh work within catalogues I do not know.

    It occurs to me that there may be other factors involved - filters, albums, collections, etc., - that could have an influence on hw the processes work even if they do not logically seem to be directly involved.

    I think this may be something that only the C1 technical team could analyse effectively. I base that on a need to know what the code is expected to do rather than speculating about what it might be doing. We seem to have covered the more visible variables and controls. (I think ...?)

     

    If you will not be working on the images within both systems (making the Synch activity a one-off activity) I wonder if it might be possible to add the LR KWs again in C1 and so bring everything into line from a single source. (The metadata content of the edit instruction file as the sole source of metadata). It seems like that is what you have intended to set up based on your Synch settings but it may not quite work as expected.

     

    It has just occurred to me that there might be a tutorial, webinar or a document that covers this subject in detail. As I have not current use for Synchronisation (that I am aware of!) I would most likely not take not of such an information source.

    If nothing is available it may make a good suggestion for future Support content. However if your situation is an anomaly compared to intended functionality a description of what is supposed to happen might not help much when trying to work out what IS happening in your case.

     

    There are some areas of potential complexity that might require a spefication reference to work out what should happen.

    For example an Image with several different edit variants in C1. Each variant (in C1) has its own values for metadata fields including KWs. How any Synchronise logic works in such a situation may be a case for detailed technicla investigation.

     

    If you have not already used the "Submit a request" option to create a personalised Support Case I would recommend that you do so. I think it is very likely that detailed knowledge will be required to make progress analysing the root cause of the problem.

     

     

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  • Väinö Louekari

    Hello (I never thought I would get this much response:)) again.

    Yes, I have sent a request but as of now, the whole thing (things) remain unsolved. 

    LR generated KW's  are embedded for the source files by LR, every level 1 KW is unique, they are like "Camera", "Place", "Year" and so on. Also, every level 2 KW ("Nikon D600") appears in just one hierarchy (that is, connected in just one level 1 KW)

    I have been trying to find a common pattern for this disappearing, I would very much like to be able to do something about it:) But so far, no luck. 

    Reload really does always (so far) bring them back, but they may, or may not disappear again.

    And sorry about my english, it is not my first or even second language:)

    Yours

    Väinö Louekari

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  • SFA

    Hi Väinö,

    There is absolutely nothing "wrong" with your English.

    For the levels question I was thinking about your original "Persons" example. Level 1 Parent keyword with multiple sub KWs.

    Actually "Person" is probably, for practical purposes, redundant as a level but I often use 3 and 4 level Hierarchies where the top level is almost but not quite redundant so still needs to be taken into account.

    There are situations where I need to use more than one hierarchy form the same KW set and having the Level One parent (sometimes level 2 as well). That can be interesting but so far has not presented any problems (that I have noticed).

     

    In effect there are 2 parts to KW usage.

    Adding the KWs, at which point the Hierarchy concept is useful to save work.

    Using the KWs for searches, at which point the KW alone is likely to be the most useful option as the hierarchy probably does not matter most of the time. If some part of it does matter then simply use that KW as well.

     

    I think at least part of the challenge the processing in C1 faces is that the system has been defined as dynamic and using multiple sources (because that is what people expect). However that then creates a need for constant reading and monitoring of data from multiple input sources rather than controlled and managed input processes (such as preset loads at import or any updates during editing) and so the overhead becomes much greater and speed may be affected. It is perhaps in attempting to minimise performance issues that delays are hidden somewhat and anomalies in what appears may be observed?  Speculation but quite possible.

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  • Väinö Louekari

    Hello

    Your speculation makes sense. But then again; if we are (as for KWs) dealing with something that is built in the C1 logic or structure, then I should not be the only one to experience this. I think I have done quite the usual things: catalog migration from LR, adding images and adding KW.s into that hierarchy.

    I agree, hierarchy is useful when adding keywords and on the other hand while searching I would not need the parent KW "Persons" but just the level 2 KW "Richard". But without parent KWs the list would be a mess and much more difficult to control.

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  • SFA

    Hi Väinö,

    I think this seems to be one of the situations where local settings/conditions/data/etc. may be influential BECAUSE not everyone has the same experiences.

    However, I have no numbers that indicate how many people use Keywords at all, how many used (Hierarchical) KWs in LR and have converted catalogs to C1, have original images with embedded KWs, especially Hierarchical KWs, etc., etc.

    So, although  I agree with your observations, in reality there are many possible reasons why this subject (and very similar situations)  may not be discussed much in public forums. At least not with such detailed descriptions that give some direction to the discussion.

    I also agree with you comments about hierarchies BUT, in the examples of families, unless you need to differentiate (both now and, acting as a curator, for the future generations who may still find access to the electronic archive, whether the Keyword "Parent" is significant may be an area for discussion. If it is should the first level of differentiation then be "Mother/Father/Others"?  If using a unique name identifier for a specific individual should the "Full" name be used? (Whatever "full name" might mean). Or would "Family Name" then "Given Name" be more useful?

    And so on.

    However I suspect that what you are experiencing is not directly related to Kws and hierarchies but more likely to combinations of sources and how they may be handled by either the C1 or Windows processes involved.

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  • Väinö Louekari

    Hello

    I would've thought that everyone uses hierarchical keywords:) I might be wrong. Your thoughts about keywords are quite thought-provoking. Using family name as a level 2 KW is a good idea. I will consider that.

    I tend to agree with You: seems like something is interfering with the normal (?) processess of the catalogue / database. But these things happened even when I was using only C1. That is, LR did not make any changes into anything. 

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  • Martin Tolley

    Come to this a little late, but I also have the F2 issue - it does nothing.

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  • Väinö Louekari

    Hello all.

    Support asked me some questions, I answered. That is eleven days ago. Since that, silence. So, today I wrote: 

    "Hello again.
    I was hoping that You would react to my post as I tried to answer Your questions concerning my request. If You need some more information before being able to comment on my grievances, please do not hesitate to ask.

    Yours
    Väinö Louekari"

    Quite frankly, they seem to want me to return to LR:)

     

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  • Martin Tolley

    I reported the renaming issue to C1 last week and had the following reply in two days:

    "Thank you for bringing this bug to our attention, we appreciate the time you’ve taken to contribute towards the development and maintenance of Capture One.
    I would consider this a bug and have already filed a report with all the details for the R&D team."

    They then say they don't know how long/when/if it'll be fixed.

    I don't know how you reported the issues, but I think it works better if you file a separate tech request for each one. They have a reporting ticket system, and perhaps they have "stock" answers for bugs they know, and may have to work their way through complex ones they don't know.

    They are also having to deal with the issues thrown up by the Apple Big Sur update, and the release of C21 - so I guess to be fair, they're a bit busy.

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