A new keystone tool
Implemented
Updated April 5 2022 (with the release of version 15.2.0).
The previous malfunctioning has now been fixed, and some of the limitations have been removed (the visibility of lines and adjustment points has been improved; default vertical keystone amount has been changed to 100; auto-keystone has been added). Though the most acute limitation, the lack of independent adjustment points – see 1) below – is yet to be addressed.
This is an attempt to summarize in one place the requested features for an improved keystone tool.
1) Independent horizontal and vertical adjustment points (four independent lines, rather than four lines locked in a four-sided figure; eight adjustment points in all). (See these: 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5.)
2) The option to only place three lines (six adjustment points). This would be useful in a cases where one of the axes only has one line you can use for alignment. (See this topic.)
3) Retain adjustment point positions after the application is closed (see this).
4) Loupe showing the exact position of adjustment points while you drag and place them.
5) Option to move an entire line between two adjustment points (as opposed to one adjustment point at a time) (see this, for instance).
6) Maximize crop when using auto-keystone (see this: unnecessary cropping).
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Totally agree! Please unlock four closed lines into four separate lines in the keystone tool. And shortcut for quick zoom into the circle would be also nice!
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I've also had problems with the current keystone tool where even if the lines are placed pixel-perfect on the corners of a rectangle it is still leaving some skew after being applied.
edit - ok now I see this thread: Perspective – Capture One
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Thank you for your extensive post Thomas.
These are also the features I would like to see in a new keystone tool.
As you've said, an overhaul of this tool has been long overdue.
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The perfect post! Thank you for listing the most important things that needs to be changed ASAP. I love C1, but this tool must be updated to be really useful.
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I fully agree with you Katrina. No updates for me unless they start listening and get their basics in order ...
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It's ridiculous that several years of negative comments about the keystone tool have not prompted a major overhaul. I regretted updating from CO 20 to 21 and will not be paying more for CO 22 if rock bottom basic features such as the keystone tool are ignored for yet another year.
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I don't know how works statistics (votes and comments) on the forum and if C1 are taking them into accounts, but if I look at some subject they recently worked on (like the #bring back output panel) it seams to be that way. We maybe need them more vote and comment on that topic, so be sure to vote! ;-)
I also sent just now that support ticket, I thing we should all sent one these day, talking about that post and the keystone tool problem. Maybe our voice will be heard.
Dear Capture One,
Since several years now, many users are struggling (and complaining) about the faulty behavior of the keystone correction tool.
See user forum here:
- keystone malfunction (request #15943)
https://support.captureone.com/hc/en-us/community/posts/360009406077-Keystone-malfunction-request-15943-
- Keystone Tool Still Broken in 14.4
https://support.captureone.com/hc/en-us/community/posts/4408331872401-Keystone-Tool-Still-Broken-in-14-4?page=1#community_comment_4408365256849
- Perspective
https://support.captureone.com/hc/en-us/community/posts/360014136118-PerspectiveAnd was summarized with lot of exemple in this post:
- A new keystone tool
https://support.captureone.com/hc/en-us/community/posts/360014158198-A-new-keystone-tool?page=1#community_comment_4408382084625But the community of user we are, never received, on the Capture One Users Forum or after support ticket, a real answer if or when this long time issue will be resolved, or at least something else than the standard "it will be reported to the R&D department".
There is now a group of users, including professional photographers, using different kind of cameras, including Phase One, willing to help to fix keystone tool problems and bringing some ideas (see "A new keystone tool" post on the forum) to improve greatly that forgotten but usefull tool.
So dear Capture One, could we find a way to resolve that long time, and irritating, issue?
Thanks in advance for your answer,
Leo Fabrizio3 -
Well my subscription finally ended and I did not renew. I made it very clear in the 'why are you cancelling' thing that its because of the keystone tool, lack of developers in the forum, and focus on new features over fixing existing ones.
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Hi all. Let me quickly introduce myself. I work as Product Manager with Capture One, and I'm currently trying to get an understanding of the scope of issues with the Keystone tool as it is today. Thank you for your elaborate discussions and contributions to this thread. It helps a lot!
While I cannot yet say anything about what will be done, or when, I can share that your problems with the tool are being investigated. Before we can settle on the scope and timing for a potential upgrade of the tool, we first need to deeply understand the problems in order to solve them in the best way possible.
If you feel like some points have not been made in the thread so far, please add more comments with your problem descriptions and I will be notified.3 -
Thomas Kyhn - I am 100% in agreement with your post. The two modules that are the most painful in C1 are the keystone tool and printing. The printing tool is so bad I export to Qimage Ultimate.
I do a fair amount of both interior and exterior work and because the C1 keystone tool is so painfully awkward and inaccurate I use either PS or DXO Viewpoint for my corrections. Again I have to use a second tool and all the format changes and round tripping that goes with it. It is still faster and much more accurate going that route than using the C! keystone.
Also LR has a much superior keystone tool, even though not perfect, it is much faster, more accurate and much easier to use.
I am not sure if anyone from C1 even bothers to read or acknowledge the community posts. They make a big deal about improving C1 so as to reduce trips to PS or other 3rd party software while not fixing tools that would actually reduce those round trips.
I also agree with your comment "they usually present – mainly of people – as well their "ambassadors" you can easily get the impression that keystone adjustment isn't really of much importance".
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A few examples of typical use cases where a vertical default of 80 makes no sense (see no. 5 on the list in the initial post).
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interesting pictures! :-)
I am struggling with that keystone too!
To me there is an accumulation of problems becoming more problematic more you ask correction.
- 2 lines versus 4 lines corrections (4 lines is just bad almost all the time)
- 80 vs 100% of correctionAs far as I understand it after complaining several time to Phase One and Capture One, there are some conflict between lens correction and perspective correction (and even the automatic correction with Phase One IQ4).
Some time cancelling the lens correction (generic) solve the keystone tool troubles.Capture One seems to have no interest in fixing the Keystone tool even if we have seen fixes in the past (visibility of lines) after massively requesting through support case.
I think we should continue to send massive support case about keystone troubles.
We should also consider report these trouble trough the beta testing!2 -
Thanks Thomas for this description and analysis. From my point it covers all aspects of the wrecked tool. Seeing it still has not been resolved in the latest version I will not upgrade to the latest version 21/22. Pretty unbelievable ... I consider this as an essential tool in a RAW converter ... But you see that's what happens, when arrogance meets ignorance ;-)
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Definitely, a 100% default is the only right default. 80% is completely arbitrary and makes no sense at all.
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@SFA
You're wasting your breath. The point being made in this thread, along with several other threads over the past few years, is that within C1 we should have the ability to turn a trapezoid into a perfect rectangle. Arbitrary or not, it doesn't matter. End of story. It can be done in numerous other softwares including rudimentary iOS apps. We want independent axis transform capacities.
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Also, you appear oblivious to the fact that the keystone tool is often used for subtle adjustments to photos with verticals that are already very close to parallel. Here, too, 80% makes no sense.he would know this
everybody actually shooting and using this tools knows this and this is why every other important software has a default of 100%, software should not make creative decisions.
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@Timo Bierbaum
"No updates for me unless they start listening and get their basics in order ..."
Same here. I don't need HDR / panorama-stitching support. Might be nice to have occasionally, but for me personally it is much more important that the existing functionality is
a) correct (does what it is supposed to do), and
b) easy to use (supports productive workflows rather than making one jump through hoops because UI design elements need to be uncovered before they can be used (e.g., mask settings in the Viewer toolbar which I normally have closed), UI design elements take too much space ("+/-" add/delete layer icons requiring their own row, wasting space), or brush selection mechanics favour beginners who use very few (unnamed) layers rather than enthusiasts who want to be able to efficiently revisit many layers and/or quickly change between regular brushing and erasing for advanced mask creation.2 -
Yet another non-reply from support about the keystone malfunction issue (after sending several examples including screenshots and .eip files):
"We do get similar feedback from time to time and I have logged your comments and suggestions in the R&D keystone tool thread."
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"No updates for me unless they start listening and get their basics in order ..."
"Same here. I don't need HDR / panorama-stitching support."Panorama stitching is actually an old and forgotten fonction of C1 that is coming back... :-)
@Thomas Kyhn
"We do get similar feedback from time to time"... I guess I am part of the "time to time".
Let's make those feedback from time to time to all the time, and I convinced they will finally hear our voice (let's be optimistic ;-P)2 -
Thanks from me too, Thomas Kyhn, for your post. I have occasionally taken shots for Real Estate agents and use the keystone tool to correct the verticals (to 100%!!!) in most of the shots. Sometimes this can make the top part of the shot look a bit squashed while the bottom half can look stretched. I've attached a rough illustration to show this.
In this particular shot the extensive windows height needs to be emphasised more than the kitchen island unit. In such cases I have to use the Photoshop Warp tool to correct the verticals in the manner indicated to give a more natural and balanced result.
It would be good if this useful feature could be added to the keystone tool. If this were technically too difficult then a Warp tool would (at least for me) be a welcome addition to CO.
However I'd prefer if this additional feature could be added to the Keystone tool as this would keep CO as a specialist Raw editor - the last thing I'd like to see is CO going the way of Photoshop and adding more and more "features" to justify the continuous rental expense.
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I've also made a couple requests for this over the past two years. It's such an obvious and long overdue feature update, that I beginning to wonder if Adobe has a patent on the transform feature. Why else would C1 lead the way on so many levels yet leave such an embarrassing Keystone feature on their software.
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I'm sure they're aware of the rudimentary state of this tool, but it doesn't appear to have any priority at all. And when you look at the sort of photography they usually present – mainly of people – as well their "ambassadors" you can easily get the impression that keystone adjustment isn't really of much importance.
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I recently started at least a partial switch to Capture One after years of Lightroom, and as much as I love working with color, the Keystone tool is a real vibe killer. It's unintuitive and often doesn't work. For the last few sessions, even the lines disappeared, and I can only work with sliders. I'm surprised that there are so many threads with keystone improvement and fixes requests; most of them left without a reply from the CO team... Keystone tool would definitely benefit from a close look by CO engineers!
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Here are two examples of the keystone tool not working as it's supposed to. (This after raising the vertical "amount" to 100.)
And this is with vertical and horizontal keystone adjustment.
Before pressing Apply:
After:
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An example of a case where independent horizontal and vertical adjustment points would have been useful (please disregard the quality of the photo, it only serves as an illustration of the issue).
Obviously, you get the most precise results by placing the adjustment points as far apart as possible. In Capture One, however, you cannot use the full length of the available lines in the image:
. . .
This is the result you get, by the way, but that's another issue:
For comparison, here's the result in Lightroom:
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I'm afraid you're right.
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Interesting thread. Thomas and CSP, I'm also decided to not throw more money at C1 because usually I like to support companies delivering well made tools. A couple of C1's are doubtful to say the least in terms of "well made".
Like you, CSP, I also learnt to use photolab (and am still in this process) as I switched to another camera system (for similar reasons, just not happy with some major developments) and DxO already supported Lumix while C1 was simply not able to read their RAW. It's good we have choices, it's just not very satisfying to live with other shortcomings. At least, photolab is not crashing on a daily basis (mulitple times). Yet.
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Yet another example.
Rather than being able to simply place the adjustment points as far apart as possible along the available lines, like this:
You have to spend a while going back and forth from side to side until you get a reasonable alignment, like this:
And this is the result you get:
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Good idea, Leo.
I've contacted support about problems with the keystone tool several times, and just did so again with the latest two examples in this thread, including screenshots and eip files (ticket #112902). At one point, last year I think, it sounded like they actually took it seriously, but after that I've only received what was more or less standard replies.
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