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Please make it possible to dynamically / non-destructively define a Color Range, as it is already possible with Luma Range.

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54 comments

  • Christian G
    Product Manager

    Sharon Leibel's points above represents his own personal view and not the one of Capture One.

    Please keep the illustrated use cases coming, it helps us understand the feature request better. 

    5
  • Walter Rowe
    Moderator
    Top Commenter

    Color Editor cannot add contrast, clarity, set black/white point like levels tool. We may want to add film grain in a specific color range. We may want to use color balance tool on the color range to do something we can't do in color editor (like shift shadows, mids, highlights differently). We might convert an image to black and white and want to use a color based mask to adjust the black and white image for maximum impact.

    We can make a rasterized color range mask from color editor. We cannot copy that to another image and have the mask dynamically reselect based on where the same color range appears in the applied image.

    4
  • BeO
    Top Commenter

    Whenever I use darktable to develop my raw files and use masks and colored areas are involved, I use the parametric masks, and I do NOT search for a way to rasterize them.

    Whenever I am a little unhappy with my mask created in C1 after I have done my non-color adjustments, or copy it over to another image in the series, I am searching for a way to quickly amend the masks and I AM searching for a way to this quickly do this.

    With all respect, Sharon, but questioning my motivation here is a slap in my face and disrespectful!

    I have so many other wishes for C1 that I would not waste the companies time, nor mine, to support the implementation request for this feature, just because I think it would be a nice-to-have feature.

    ! ! !

    4
  • André Fröhlich

    There is also a now archived request by Prasad Palaniyandi describing the same feature. 

    See: https://support.captureone.com/hc/en-us/community/posts/360013694897-New-Color-Range-feature-along-with-Luma-Range-for-color-based-non-destructive-layer-mask

    The archived request also contains a mockup showing a possible solution for the user interface. This is almost identical to what I had in mind. 

    3
  • Prasad Palaniyandi

    André Fröhlich Thanks for referring my request. I have not only submitted this request but also discussed in fb forums and C1 live sessions. 

    Many of the users don't get the power of having "Color Range" combined with "Luma Range" tool. My idea for "Color Range" is to "dynamically" refine the selection based on Hue and Saturation similar to "Luma Range" which refines the selection based on luminosity. Combining these 2 tools, precise selection can be achieved "dynamically" based on Luminosity + Hue + Saturation.

    When ever I bring this topic, I always get suggestion to use "Advanced Color Editor" or "Magic Brush" to create mask based on Color. But the limitation is that the resultant mask generated by both of these techniques are "rasterized" or "static" which means if I want to refine the mask based on color I need to start over. 

    So when we have "Color" and "Luma" Range tools, following 3 steps will help to create precise Luminosity + Hue + Saturation based  "dynamic" mask.

    Step-1 : Create initial selection: Filled or Partial using Brush or Gradient Mask.

    Step-2: Refine selection based on Luminosity using "Luma Range" Tool

    Step-3: Refine selection based on Color (Hue & Saturation) using "Color Range" Tool

    3
  • Daniel Price

    I primarily shoot architecture.  Where various parts of the building are often clearly defined by color (walls with distinct colors, floors, accents, etc) and less by luminosity.  Being able to leverage this across images of the same subject would be a MASSIVE time savings for me.

    How I get around this today:

    • Copy adjustments from one image to the next
    • Clear the masks
    • Recreate the masks (however, doing so is never quite the same as the previous image)

    This would ensure a higher level of consistency for me.

    3
  • Daniel Price

    Christian-G
    AI masking slightly speeds up part of the third step, sometimes. However, that third step must be repeated for every color/layer mask, which often means it's done 6+ times per image.

    The problem I have with or without AI, is that it won't be the same across each image (slightly different ranges selected based on the precise spot I click).  I often waste a lot of time trying to get the selection right across images, so that they have a consistent look.

    3
  • Prasad Palaniyandi

    Christian-G - Good to see an update from Project Management Team... Appreciate and Thanks very much for that..

    Probably I was the one among the first who submitted this idea (#60452) in 2020 which was accepted and submitted to the Project Management Team by "Lily". But unfortunately now it is achieved. I had been voicing out for this feature for long time and asked many times when ever I go opportunity in both live sessions and in FB groups.

    https://support.captureone.com/hc/en-us/requests/60452 

    Reason:

    When I edit Sunrise and Sunset shots, I use the Luma Range to refine the initial mask to isolate the Colorful Sky from the Rest - Subject, Foreground and others etc. Since the sky has pretty much the same luminance across, many times it becomes difficult to isolate regions with different colors due to smooth transitions between colors. I can create a hue and saturation based mask using "Create Masked Layer From Selection" in ACE, but as it is a "Static" mask, I have to recreate new layer mask from ACE again if I need to make a change. In this scenario after refining the initial mask based on luminance, invariably i was looking for a mechanism to refine further based on "Hue" and "Saturation". I can use the Magic Brush, but again it also produces a "Static" mask which always requires back and forth setting changes (Tolerance & Refine Edge) to get the mask I want. Since Range masks are "Dynamic" they can be refined at any point of time. Due to the "Self-Feathering" nature of "Range" masks, results are always precise and perfect based on "Luminance+Hue+Saturation".

    Added few sample pictures where I have smooth transition between color with similar luminance.

    Similar situation to edit Spring flowers/outdoor macros, fall foliage, snowscape, birds especially multi colors like hummingbird etc..

    Both "Luma Range" and "Color Range" tool combo will not only make the Masking tool set powerful and flexible but also eliminate the trip to 3rd party tools..

    Luma and Color Range Mask tools can have independent UI as shown below or in single UI with 2 tabs like Color Balance and Color Editor UI.

    I would be happy to explain in detail if I am reached out.

    Design Mockup:

    Samples Images:


    3
  • Walter Rowe
    Moderator
    Top Commenter

    Because we may want to make adjustments only in areas where we have a specific color range. In this case we aren't editing the color, but using the color dynamically to create a mask similar to luminosity limiting a mask to a tonal range. If we copy-apply a color range masked layer to another image we want that color range to dynamically find the correct colors in the applied image and then apply the adjustments we made in the copy source. Luminosity masks are dynamic. They recalculate on the pasted image. We want color range selection masks that work the same way.

    3
  • Prasad Palaniyandi

    Brian Jordan, Sharon Leibel and Christian-G - Happy to see active involvement of moderators and Project manager.

    While myself and many others have already discussed/explained the importance and necessity of this feature in detail, I would like to summarize my view (again).

    1. Since Advanced Color Editor (ACE) adjusts HSL only, a new layer has to be created through the "Create Masked Layer From Selection" option in ACE for the selected Color Range to use other tools like Levels, Curve, Contrast, Dehaze, Clarity, Sharpening, Noise Reduction and Color Balance etc... As the resulting mask is "Static" (rasterized), a new mask has to be created again if the selected color range needs to be modified. Whereas Layer Mask through the proposed "Color Range" will create a "Dynamic" mask which allows users to tweak the "same" mask instead of recreating.

    2. When adjustments are copied from image "A" and applied to multiple images, the "Color Range" mechanism ensures the range is recalculated for each image and the mask gets generated precisely. But, if source image "A" has a static (rasterized) mask then no recalculation happens instead all images will have masks at the same locations as source due to direct Copy => Paste.

    3. "Save Luma Range and Masks in custom styles" request is "In Works" as per C1. When it gets implemented in the future, the Color Range and Luma Range will become so invaluable since when ever style is applied, range masks are re calculated precisely.

    1. Even though "Magic Brush" selection mechanism is based on "range of colors" (Tolerance option), the resultant mask is also "Static" (rasterized). As it works based on an experimental approach (trial and error) and additive in nature, it is cumbersome and difficult to create precise masks in many situations. It can neither be copied and pasted nor added to Styles (future).

    2. Finally, due to the "Self-Feathering" nature of "Range" masks, Color and Luma range tools can produce high quality masks based on "Luminance+Hue+Saturation".

    3
  • Mike Escoffery

    I really appreciate seeing Product Managers and Moderators getting involved in here.

    Sharon Leibel Maybe Im the only one who sees this as weird, but your questions suggest that you are looking for a reason to NOT implement a feature, rather than trying to understand HOW to build and implement that feature - which is exactly what I think Christian-G is looking for here by asking us for use cases, which I think we all very much appreciate.

    For the sake of “Food for thought” as you suggested - Here are my thoughts.

    1. Whether the use cases were here, where an after-thought in order to show a use case, Or is it a use case that created the need in the first place... Chicken or the egg. Is the tail pulling the dog? (Steve Jobs was famous for explaining why you need a new device, When you didn't even knew you needed one)

    I don’t think this thread wouldn’t exist if the Use Case didn’t come first. Users aren’t just making stuff up in order to get C1 to add features we don’t need. It happens when users hit a point in our workflows which there are no tools to support that workflow, Then we come to the forums looking for a solution. To suggest that users are just making up these use cases is a little out of touch. I really don’t think anybody has time for that.

    2. How would all the requests affect C1 in terms of lines of code addition and the performance afterwards

    I don’t really see how this is a question for the forums. It should be the C1 Dev team who’s responsible for ensuring clean code and performance while accommodating the needs of the customers. Sure every new feature might affect performance, but we shouldn’t seek to stagnate progression for the sake of performance. This will always be a constant tug-of-war, but it’s required for advancement.

    3. Does C1 wants to be a tool of many - master of none? a "Navy seal" or an "all around soldier"?

    I believe this software is meant for all photographers creating all kinds of images, who want a great deal of control and quality when processing their RAW images. C1 is already a Navy Seal of processing RAW Photos, I don’t see how adding this tool make it less specialized. 

    ---

    The bottom-line common-denominator that I see in most of these uses cases, is about saving time when editing many photos; dynamic non-destructive masks give us a lot of control at a rapid speed of output. This is the very strong WHY behind all of these requests - to speed up an otherwise very time-consuming workflow. Speed is the name of the game in this modern world.

    I think another strong WHY point to address here, is that C1 competitors already have this feature. This is partially a game of catch up and staying relevant. For me this is most important because I do see C1 as a best-in-class raw processor, If I didn’t I would have long-ago switched to Lightroom to gain access to features released at a quicker pace. I still really want those features, but I don’t want give up C1 RAW processing. (In fact the only reason I Use Lightroom, is to Geo-Tag my untagged images since C1 doesn’t have this feature at all - would also love to do this all in one place)

    I think the Use Cases already provided in here from Prasad Palaniyandi, André Fröhlich, BeO and a few others are spot on, and I really don’t have much to add that hasn’t already been shared. Prasad specifically has put so much time and effort into thinking about how this feature could work and be implemented including UI mock-ups; Thank you so much for that. I really hope your efforts are rewarded. I specifically love the “Luminance+hue+saturation” combo of creating a dynamic mask - this is incredibly flexible. 

    All in all my use cases are similar to what others have mentioned. I work most specifically on landscape images, where having the tools to apply non-colour-based adjustments to specific colour ranges is highly important. These can range from Sharpening/De-Sharpening, Clarity, Contrast, Noise Reduction, etc. Essentially all of the tools NOT found in the Advanced Colour Editor which focuses specifically on colour based adjustments. Heck knowing me I would probably even adjust White Balance to a specific colour range.

    Selection and Isolation are nearly the most important tools of any image editor, and this is often a time-consuming process to get the selection right. Anything that can be done to speed this up, while remaining accurate, is highly welcomed.

    In any case I’m glad to see this feature getting attention and progressing forward.

    3
  • Kevin Robbins

    Christian-G, exactly what Mike Escoffery mentioned, plus...

    Skin Tone Tool — I use this tool extensively on colour work that is not even skin-related to harmonize the HSL values across a colour block. Pretty much anything you see in this video: https://youtu.be/eCeZ7mipCbQ

    In fashion, ecomm, product, etc., being able to apply layer tools to a colour range (such as opening up the shadows on a coloured fabric that is absorbing more light than wanted), is incredibly valuable.

    3
  • Kevin Robbins

    Sharon Leibel I take issue with these things you've said here, and it demonstrates a viewpoint I have not previously seen from this company.

    1. "...whether the people who answered the 'what is the use case' question, Didn't see the idea and then tried to justify use cases after the fact, In order to have an answer to a question."

    2. "...trying to do 'sanity checks'..."

    3. "Rather than investing in popularity contests (HDR, Panorama, Film scanning module, Etc.)."

    4. "...instead of investing in a professional, Focused product."

    5. "...adding all these 'toys' (In my opinion)..."

    6. "...adding hundreds if not thousands lines of code, Making the software buggy and laggy."

     

    It's sad to find out that your opinion of the 38 professional here who have upvoted this request is so low that you assume they are making up use cases to justify a "toy" as you call it.

    Your assumption that adding thousands of lines of code would make software buggy and laggy is hyperbolic and suggests that maybe the programmers at C1 are not competent enough to make stable software. By this very premise, software such as Photoshop and Davinci Resolve should work because there's too many lines of code. Please! I used to be a programmer. I know this is a falsehood and an exaggeration to try to back up your viewpoint, which is coming across to me as hostile and not professional.

    As for popularity contests, you should consider the fact that if a lot of people are asking for something that maybe it has value. If something is popular, it doesn't make it inherently bad, it just means a lot of people see a need and a use for it, even if you personally don't. And referring to your responses to people's use cases as "sanity checks." could not possibly be any more disrespectful.

    Does your job as a moderator of these forums extend to being a linebacker for the devs? Christian-G has respectfully asked for use cases and we're providing them. Shutting us down in the process makes us feel unheard. And honestly, this is first time in almost a decade where I've had any negative feelings towards C1, and it's solely due to the way you are responding. I hope that's something the company addresses with you.

    3
  • BeO
    Top Commenter

    Hi Jack, 

    You can define a color range e,g. in the Advanced Color Editor and then copy this setting to the other images. For each image you then can "create (a) masked layer from selection" via the tool's menu. (regardless of the checkbox "View selected color range").

    Copy to other images is the only use case André has explicitely mentioned, I am not sure this is actually the only use case for him.

    But for me this known technique is not solving the principal weakness (and this use case not the rmain eason why I upvoted) because the mask is not easly amended after the creation because it is rasterized, and not parameterized. 

     

     

    2
  • Danny Batista

    It should hopefully be very apparent to c1 team, how important it is for us to be able to quickly and precisely modify our masks and the need for those masks to be dynamic and work fluidly with other mask refinement tools like (subject selection, luma masks, etc). This needs to be logged!

    2
  • Julien Apruzzese

    In fact, the goal would be to not restrict the hue and saturation values selection to the Color Editor tool. It would be awesome to be able to dynamically select hue, saturation and luminosity on the layer (as the Luma does it actually).

    You can inspire you from the Davinci Resolve software.

    2
  • Walter Rowe
    Moderator
    Top Commenter

    Christian-G - there are infinite use cases in product, portrait, landscape, fashion, commercial photography. PS provides this for a reason. Give us one less reason to keep our Adobe subscription!

    2
  • Brian Jordan
    Moderator

    Thanks again, Walter. I think it likely helps the Product Managers if we can provide them with a nice, concise “why”. I wish what you just typed could be pinned to the top of this request.

    2
  • Prasad Palaniyandi

    Mike Escoffery My sincere thanks go out to you for understanding my effort and for your kind words... :) I have published this thread in couple of popular FB forums, asking for users to provide use cases. Looking forward to see this Color Range feature soon.  

    Kevin Robbins - Moderator is not an official member of Capture One, but rather a C1 user who has volunteered to help. I know a moderator with solid knowledge of C1 is Walter Rowe , who is also the manages C1 Technical Group on Facebook. Additionally, he provided compelling reasons why this feature is needed.

    2
  • Jack W
    Admin

    Would just like to make it abundantly clear that just because somebody is a moderator, doesn’t mean they represent the views of Capture One.

    Generally speaking, I don’t see the point in negating somebody else’s idea or viewpoint. I use about 10% of the features in Capture One and if something new is implemented that I don’t find useful, I just don’t use it…

    Everyone has different wants and needs. And we are absolutely committed to facilitating that sort of healthy discussion, as are the moderator team. 

    2
  • Prasad Palaniyandi

    I have missed out on an important one - Saturation Mask

    In Advanced Color Editor (ACE) I can create mask presets for various saturation ranges as shown in the pictures. A saturation mask includes the full spectrum of hues (360 degrees) for the selected saturation range (0 to 100). Despite presets helping to choose the range, the mask produced will remain static. Therefore, the Color Range will allow ranges to be copied and applied dynamically or saved as styles with adjustments.

    Use cases:

    1. Vibrance Mask: It encompasses the muted (lower) portion of the Saturation Range, approximately from 0 up to 60. Bright scenes with low saturation tend to look dull, flat, and lack detail when shot at a bright time of day. I found that contrast, exposure, saturation and clarity adjustments to the midtone-highlight region (Luma Range) of a muted saturation mask gave better results than other options. I have found this technique to be very useful when photographing spring flowers, fall foliage, and beach scenes.

    2. Saturation Mask: It covers high saturation ranges - approx 70 to 100. I use this mask for 2 purposes.

      1. To reduce oversaturation if it overpowers. Sometimes for fall foliage and spring flowers I like to increase to enhance.

      2. High saturation values in shadows and the lower midtone region create the illusion that it is more saturated than it actually is.To achieve pleasing results, I reduce the saturation and increase the luminosity of the range.

     

    2
  • Prasad Palaniyandi

    Christian-G

    Like the Luma range, I have a conviction that the Color Range feature can be used in all genres of photography. The use cases Capture One had in mind when designing Luma Range pretty much apply to Color Range as well; the only difference here is color (Hue + Saturation).

    Throughout this discussion thread, we have elaborated on the need for the Color Range feature based on our experience with photography, working knowledge with various editing tools, and specifically Capture One now. It is probably possible for you to come up with a solid list of reasons and use cases. Don't get offended, but I am not sure everyone can put in the effort again to list use cases with supporting images. If you share a location to upload, most of use will be happy to share RAW images.

    In conclusion, I would like to summarize (again) my point of view, which probably aligns with most of the users' view....

    1. As Advanced Color Editor (ACE) adjusts HSL only, a new layer has to be created through "Create Masked Layer From Selection" for the selected Color Range in order to use other tools like Levels, Curve, Contrast, Dehaze, Clarity, Sharpening, Noise Reduction and Color Balance etc... As the resulting mask is "Static" (rasterized), a new layer and mask has to be created again if the selected color range needs to be modified. Whereas, if the proposed "Color Range" is implemented, the resultant mask will be "Dynamic" (auto calculated) which will allow users to tweak the "same" mask instead of recreating.

    2. When adjustments are copied from image "A" and applied to multiple images, the "Color Range" mechanism ensures the range is recalculated for each image individually and the mask gets generated precisely. Whereas, if source image "A" has a static (rasterized) mask created through "Create Masked Layer From Selection" in ACE, then no recalculation will happen. All target images will have precisely the same rasterized mask as the source during Copy => Apply.

    3. "Save Luma Range and Masks in custom styles" request is "In Works" as per C1. When it gets implemented in the future, then both Color and Luma Range features will become invaluable since whenever style is applied to multiple images, range masks are re calculated independently and precisely.

    1. Even though the "Magic Brush" selection mechanism is based on "range of colors" (Tolerance option), the resultant mask is also "static" (rasterized). As it works based on an experimental approach (trial and error) and is additive in nature, it is cumbersome and difficult to create precise masks in many situations. It can neither be copied and pasted nor added to styles (future).

    2. Another important advantage is that dynamic Vibrance (muted saturation range) and Saturation (high saturation range) masks can be created. If the proposed "Color Range" is implemented, the Vibrance and Saturation masks will be "Dynamic" which will allow users to tweak instead of recreating.

    3. Last but not least, the important advantage is that due to the "Self-Feathering" nature of "Range" masks, Color and Luma range tools can produce high quality masks based on "Luminance+Hue+Saturation".

    2
  • Jack W
    Admin

    Hi André Fröhlich 

    First of all, thank you for getting in touch with us and for providing your feedback. We really appreciate it.

    I'd just like to point out that you can certainly create a mask on multiple images at once when using the "View selected color range" and subsequently making a mask from this selection. If you do this with multiple images selected, you should get a unique mask per image.

    Does that solve anything for you or make things easier?

     

    1
  • André Fröhlich

    Hi Jack Williams,

    Thanks for this tip, but unfortunately this is not a viable solution for me.

    I don't want to create the mask for several images at once, but to have a possibility to define a dynamic mask based on the color selection which is not rasterized. 

    For this reason I also mentioned the Luma Range function as a comparison which also does not create a rasterized mask.

    This allows for non-destructive workflows as well as great flexibility along with the copy/apply function for adjustments as well as custom styles.

    1
  • Prasad Palaniyandi

    BeO

    Yes...I think I submitted ahead of LR implementation IIRC, but I may be wrong..

    Interestingly ACDsee implemented as part of 2022 release exactly what I submitted ahead of it's release ... :)

    1
  • BeO
    Top Commenter

    I like the C1 Advanced Color Editor. Interestingly to see ACDSee does so too.

    And yes, C1 is behind ACDsee in that regard, this request from André is not the first time somebody requested it from C1.

    1
  • Mike Escoffery

    Yes Please. Dynamic Masks based on definable parameters are essential. Static Masks are not helpful in the current modern AI driven world. Not only do I want dynamic colour masks, but also AI Subject Selection that can also be used as a layer mask which updates automatically (dynamically) from image to image. 

    C1 Tools are great. I want to keep using them. But my processes have become very slow because C1 doesn't keep up with modern advancements in technology, and thus the editing process is still very manual. I want the precise control I get in C1, but with the speed of applying edits to a catalogue very quickly.

    1
  • Julien Apruzzese

    +100000

    1
  • Kevin Robbins

    YES! I just created a post requesting this feature and then found this. This would be an amazing feature to have!

    1
  • Christian G
    Product Manager

    Hi all, 

    I am looking a bit deeper into this request, to further understand the audience and intended usage of Color Range masking. 

    I would really like to hear how You would apply such a feature in Your current workflow, and how you are trying to do it today, either inside CO, or with other tools. 

    Also, would a grouping of Hue, Saturation and Lightness/Luma make sense for You?

    Thanks, and looking forward to Your responses.

    1

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