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Would love to see file/DAM performance improvements prioritized

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73 comments

  • Thomas Kyhn
    Top Commenter

    Considering the company's very apparent lack of interest in improving anything that has to do with metadata or with Capture One's poor handling of catalogues, AI assisted metadata seems quite far off.

    1
  • JoJu

    I agree with you Thomas Kyhn. And I also find it funny, to call for AI when already the given HI (for human intelligence) has no clue how to make a DAM useful. Since how many years are the devs pretending to be too stupid/distracted/incapable to add a simple search for album names into their interpretation of catalogs?

    And I really don't set too high hopes in AI. A while ago I made some attempts with Excire. Coworking with C1 was just poor, recognition rate as well. Not too mention the "AI" is nothing else than deep learning and as far away from intelligence as a monkey is from banana farming.

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  • Brian Jordan
    Moderator

    JoJu Criticize the company all you want.  Personal attacks won't be tolerated. 

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  • JoJu

    1. which person did I attack?

    2. prove me wrong.

    3. meanwhile I really don't give a damn on your or other mod's opinion, Brian Jordan: How much requests for improvements of the forum were made during the last 4...5 months? What happened? Absolutely nothing! The combination of text and background colors still hurts the eye. Search functions are a very bad joke!

    That goes as well for C1's DAM capabilities. I don't care anymore what you demand from users as behaviour. I want to see improvements, not empty promises!!! You can ban me if you like but that doesn't make this forum any better than wannabe professional.

     

     

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  • Brian Jordan
    Moderator

    JoJu Again, personal attacks won't be tolerated.  If you can't read your own comments and figure out what is a personal attack vs criticism of the company or the product, I can't help you.

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  • Walter Rowe
    Moderator
    Top Commenter

    JoJu

    the DAM system lacks a lot. pretty sure no one disagrees.

    labeling developers as stupid is disrespectful. be respectful.

     

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  • Thomas Kyhn
    Top Commenter

    By the way, this request is for performance improvements, not for new features. So perhaps the request for AI assisted metadata belongs somewhere else?

    There was a related request for AI keywording recently: here.

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  • JoJu

    A better performance is not only 3 ms faster indexing, but also finding items within the catalog structure quicker – or in the case of this so-called DAM "at all". Else there's simply no point in having a catalog.

    @Brian Jordan, you don't have to help me, better help yourself: A personal attack is "joju, YOU are stupid!" and nothing else! You are the problem by simply calling disrespectful a very logical complaint about the lack of a standard function. Explorer without a search function? Finder (it's in the WORD!!!) without a search function? And C1 devs keep on forgetting and ignoring it since a decade, support tells me "yes, we once had it in Media Pro but apparently no longer" – how long is that app dead? And no replacement of a basic function? Yes, I keep on calling this stupid, like selling a car without a steering wheel and expect the customer to remain calm and patient! Stupid, ignorant, narrow-minded, disregarding every usability rule, take your pick. And who else if not the devs is responsible for this gap? Delivering unfinished work is noting I TOLERATE!

    And don't get me started about usability, I bet there never was any usability test on this app.

    -2
  • Marcin Mrzygłocki
    Top Commenter

    Man, stop.

    4
  • Jack W
    Admin

    JoJu "Since how many years are the devs pretending to be too stupid/distracted/incapable" – I'm gonna guess this is what Brian Jordan considered a personal attack. These "devs" are human beings who I work closely with on a daily basis, and who also come here from time to time. I want to make this a place where people feel welcome and your tone, along with the language being used, does not help to create the kind of environment that we want.

    I kindly ask you to familiarize yourself with the rules before commenting or posting again. 

    With regards to forum functionality and feature requests not being responded to for a few months...

    1. The forum is in a far better place than what it was 12-18 months ago. If I could snap my fingers and change a bunch of things with regards to functionality and general look/feel, I would! Believe me.

    2. We've been developing a new version (16.3) which includes many features and improvements that the community asked for directly. When we release for example, 16.4, 16.5 etc. You will see a lot more activity because the Product Managers and devs will be looking at the features people want for future versions.

    We're also actively working on a better solution for feature requests. I can't say more than that right now, though.

    7
  • JoJu

    "These "devs" are human beings who I work closely with on a daily basis, and who also come here from time to time." Aha. And therefore they make no mistakes? The safest way to gather some mods is to call a very big gap in usability the way I did. But that doesn't weaken the judgement. And respect for developers of unfinished products (since very long time) doesn't come for free, and it doesn't remain no matter how bad the work result is.

    I don't know employers letting their workers getting away with unfinished work. That might happen half a dozen times, but at the end somebody will get fired. Labeling support request as "solved" instead of "answered" (solved was nothing of this request) increase only the anger which eventually can become loud. So, please stop defending grown-ups or demanding respect as long as their work remains unfinished. I don't know any other DAM unable to search for structural components. You also would don't tolerate a plumber "forgetting" the important valves and still demanding money for his work.

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  • Raymond Harrison

    Developers work on company priorities. The ones I've had the pleasure of interacting with at both Capture One and Phase One have been super intelligent. Tantrums aside (never a good look and never the desired outcome), I wonder if it makes sense to take a feature request like this one, which is fairly generic, and break it up into several that are more specific? Prioritizing performance is something that isn't ever going to be "done" in my mind. 

    3
  • JoJu

    I agree about the "fairly generic", as "performance" can mean different things like easy access, logical workflows and steadiness of up-time. At the end of the day I like to spend more time on good editing than on organizing or trouble shooting or need a couple of more mouseclicks than appear to be necessary.

    I don't disagree that there must be devs being very bright and super intelligent, else C1 would not be there where it is. But this goes for the editing part. The organisational DAM part, compared to my idea of maximum usability, has some big shortcomings and I fail to use "super intelligent" as judgement for what C1 calls a DAM.

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  • BeO
    Top Commenter

    I don't believe you speak with the devs you work with on a daily basis the same as you do here, JoJu. I understand, sometimes it seems easier to defend ones position than to turn the ship around, the latter would be more appreciated though and would shine a better light on you. Cheers.

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  • BeO
    Top Commenter

    I didn't see your last post.

    Don't forget, the app is 20+ years old, a lot of 'history' in the code.

    1
  • Thomas Kyhn
    Top Commenter

    I wonder if it makes sense to take a feature request like this one, which is fairly generic, and break it up into several that are more specific? Prioritizing performance is something that isn't ever going to be "done" in my mind.

    While this request could also be taken as an encouragement to give some degree of priority to improvement of DAM performance – rather than no priority at all, as appears to be the current state of things – it would probably be a good idea to break it up into specific areas. As the main issue here seems to be network drives, perhaps it would be a good idea to change the title/description to focus on this?

    1
  • JoJu

    BeO "I don't believe you speak with the devs you work with on a daily basis the same as you do here, JoJu."

    I think you should ask the devs I'm working with. Not me. And possibly you'll get an answer like "he can be a pain in the butt but he's always looking at our results with the eyes of a user." Because I'm convinced they are the ones paying our salaries, not the company we're employed in. And I know the perspective of a dev is "solving a task in a way which appears doable for him." But that doesn't necessarily include "usable for the customer".

    "... the latter would be more appreciated though and would shine a better light on you." What my colleagues also would tell you, goes along the line "he doesn't care about being in a good or bad light, but we also learnt to not wait to long for a solution". Ten years of lacking a full text search in a database – none of my colleagues would dare to deliver this as final version – and not because of me insisting, but just because they know what's necessary.

    "Don't forget, the app is 20+ years old, a lot of 'history' in the code."

    And that is the only argument preventing a better implementation? 

    And that is a reason to continue on building on possibly wobbly foundations? Besides, I've seen bridges being useful since thousand years, often because they crossed the whole river instead of stopping few yards from the other riverbank ;)

    I think, the DAM we have today was kind of a quick and dirty solution for the end of lifecycle of MediaPro. I don't understand why not somebody from the dev team looked into the better parts of Aperture and took some "inspirations", but facing their problems to understand why it is also necessary to get context-information of a file in which collection it is to be found, I seriously don't know if they and me would describe a DAM the same way.

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  • Brian Jordan
    Moderator

    Don't feed the trolls, guys.

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  • JoJu

    And this is supposed to be "no personal attack"? Poor Brian...

    -1
  • BeO
    Top Commenter

    It is a matter of priority and cost, product management and company management stuff, not dev's job. If you really work since so many years with devs, you should know that.

    Yes, Brian's reply is an edge case, imo, but anyway he is right, there is no more to say from either side I think, in the context of this feature request.

    Cheers,
    Peace,
    BeO

    3
  • Monty

    I would also like to add my support for DAM improvements. I've been using Capture One for about two weeks.  I even purchased it :). 

    I am a longtime LrC user. I have recently become frustrated with how poorly LrC handles my low light Q2M photos.  LrC add tons of noise and banding. Not so with Capture One. In general all of my photos look better in Capture One. I'm all in.

    EXCEPT. searching my ~25,000 phtoto library is terrible. I press ⌘-f to bring up the search box and it is like I am on a DOS computer using Word Perfect. I type in the search field and I can watch the text slowly appear. Smart albums are also very slow. I see the Mac "Beach Ball" far too much

    I don't have an extremely fast computer, an M1 MacBook Air. 16GB with 1TB SSC. LrC flies on this computer. 

    So, after two week I like Capture One very much, but please work on efficiency. 

    Thanks

    Monty

    2
  • JoJu

    When did we see any new feature concerning DAM? The last bit was bringing in "groups". Possibly something happened "under the hood" because 2 or 3 major versions before crashes were queueing to happen when working in the catalog structure.

    In the meantime I think, there's simply no one in C1 developers department able to really improve the DAM part. Lots of competence for image editing, opposite of that is image handling in the catalog.

    How about collecting the issues you'd like to see to become improved?

    1. Searching for albums, projects needs to be possible. Currently it's not.
    2. Creating intelligent albums also needs to be able to look for certain album or project criteria, else it's rather pointless to work with albums and projects.
    3. I'd like to be able to see in which album or project an image is in. Not possible at the moment.
    4. Capture One is one of the few "DAM" solutions in which it's impossible to add GPS data to images. I can work around and use another browser (GraphicConverter) which can do that job, but it's cumbersome.
    5. What's the point of using groups? I cannot browse all pictures in a group, not to mention search for group names. The intelligent albums are entirely restricted to either a project or all images, but using them in a group again is pointless, as they will come up with images from the whole catalog. That makes groups very useless.
    6. At least improve the calendar function of intelligent folders. I tried to change a date ("all images after dd.mm.yyyy) by using the calendar and it remained in the same state it had before trying to edit. Makes it useless again.
    7. It would be cool to be able to duplicate an intelligent folder and then edit it. Currently each of them needs to be set up from scratch. Why not duplicate "all images with star ratings of 4 ★ or better from 2022" and change the year to 2023 while at the same time keeping the older keepers?
    1
  • Walter Rowe
    Moderator
    Top Commenter
    1. What's the point of using groups? I cannot browse all pictures in a group.

    Use Projects when you want to be able to browse all pictures in the user collection. This is the difference between Groups and Projects. Projects also let you put smart albums inside them to restrict their scope of search.

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  • Ian Wilson
    Moderator
    Top Commenter

    Groups are just a way of keeping your projects etc organised. Rather than have the all in one long list you can put them in groups - so for instance a group for studio work, a group for landscape work, and so on, each with its own collection of projects, albums and smart albums inside it.

    Ian

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  • JoJu

    Guys , either you don't want to understand or you have never used Apple's Aperture. Which to me seems to be a high probability. No wonder, it takes ages to get even the most basic functionality in C1. I assume, too many people involved don't step out of their C1 thinking quarters?

    The hierarchy in C1 is groups > projects > albums or intelligent albums.

    As I stated a gazillion times, being able to search (full text in the search field) for this items is crucial as well as being able to use a project name in the search of the intelligent album. But that's only a side note.

    There's absolutely no point in limiting intelligent albums within projects, but not being able to place an intelligent album in a group and find images with given search characteristics but limited to be in the group. If I do that, the "intelligent album" will search all images - forgive me to call that a nonsensical limitation!

    The group "travels" might contain projects in UK, Portugal, France and so on: Why are keywords the only way to get the results which could be as well filtered by album or project names in one group? A project can be one single travel, and on this travel I visited some places (=albums), that's really all I need as I am not the best and most disciplined keyworder. Why does it have to be done in a maximum amount of time if it could be done far quicker? Guys, this organisation possibility was already state of the art 7-10 years ago! Of course, C1 can decide to stay behind and rely fully on very good image editing and some fancy cloud shebang as there's really no competition around so far. DxO is even worse and on Luminar or ON1 I lost track. 

    0
  • Kevin Robbins

    JoJu, it's unfortunate that you choose to be so disrespectful in your tone because you make some decent points that no one wants to hear because of your constantly condescending attitude.

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  • Fabrizio Giudici (stoppingdown)

     

     I type in the search field and I can watch the text slowly appear. Smart albums are also very slow. I see the Mac "Beach Ball" far too much

    Typical. In the former case I suspect that C1 is trying to refine the search at each typed keys, which has a sort of multiplicative effect on the “standard” slowness.

    The slowness of simple smart albums is beyond me: there's a [mySQL: wrong, my bad] SQLite underlying database, which should handle queries quickly.

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  • Thomas Kyhn
    Top Commenter

    In the former case I suspect that C1 is trying to refine the search at each typed keys, which has a sort of multiplicative effect on the “standard” slowness.

    The slowness of simple smart albums is beyond me: there's a mySQL underlying database, which should handle queries quickly.

    I had a request in the old requests section for an option to turn off 'search as you type' – and I've just made a new request here: Option to turn off 'search as you type'. One workaround is to write search terms elsewhere, then copy them and paste them in the search field. See this topic also.

    I thought the underlying database was SQLite. Regardless of the format, it evidently isn't very fast, and there's nothing to indicate that the company intends to do anything about it, unfortunately.

    1
  • JoJu

    JoJu, it's unfortunate that you choose to be so disrespectful in your tone because you make some decent points that no one wants to hear because of your constantly condescending attitude.

    Kevin Robbins I'm waiting for 4 years now for any improvement in the DAM part of C1. Nothing happens. And I don't care anymore who feels offended by a very normal demand of improvement, like it or not. I got a couple of highly unsatisfying replies from C1 support like "yeah, we had something like that in Media Pro" – Media Pro is dead for quite a while now. Who's missing it?

    Also, there are quite a few very decent, polite and humble verbalized requests by other users for improvements and their mild tone it's no guarantee for even getting a reply for them either. So, why care? Why leave the anger about this aggressive ignorance on my side of the screen? I'm just asking...

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  • Walter Rowe
    Moderator
    Top Commenter

    Thomas Kyhn – The underlying database is SQLite3.

    JoJu said:

    Guys , either you don't want to understand or you have never used Apple's Aperture.

    The hierarchy in C1 is groups > projects > albums or intelligent albums.

    I used Apple Aperture for years. I know its organizational features very well. There is a blog post on the Capture One website written by me about migrating Apple Aperture to Capture One. Capture One asked me because they didn't have expertise in Aperture and they knew my reputation among the Apple Aperture community.

    There is NO imperative that one must follow Groups > Projects > Albums as a hierarchy (if that is what you meant in your statement). In my Capture One user collections I have top level projects with albums and no groups. I have top level groups with albums and no projects. In Apple Aperture you could create groups of groups, groups of Projects, and groups of Albums inside or outside of projects. Both Capture One and Apple Aperture have complete flexibility. Neither application strictly enforces or requires a specific paradigm.

    In Apple Aperture I never created a search by a collection name. I don't deny some might find that useful. I simply never found the need to do so myself.

    We in this conversation don't know how many people would find that feature useful. This thread is about DAM performance. If you want a feature for Capture One to search by a user collection name then submit that as a feature request. If lots of people upvote it then Capture One will know that it is a highly sought feature.

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