Keywords in Catalogs with Referenced Images
I'm working with sessions for current work and then when I'm done with a shoot and processing, adding the images to my catalog (not copying them into the catalog but using the referenced file approach leaving images in their original location). It seems that when I add a keyword to an image in the catalog it does not add the keyword to the source image file. Is this correct? Am I doing this incorrectly?
Thanks for any help!
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You are doing nothing wrong.
Capture one NEVER updates a source image file. Keywords and other metadata are stored in the catalog database when using a catalog. If you enable the Auto Sync sidecar option they will also be written to XMP sidecar files.
When using a session keywords are stored in the .cos file inside of the CaptureOne/SettingXXX folder for the image. Or along with the image if packing as EIP is enabled for the session. They may be in the session database, too.
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Hmm. So, if I want the keywords to be stored with the image meta data, I really should do that outside of capture one? My concern is if I move away from capture one at some point, I don’t want to lose all of the key wording.
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XMP sidecar files are supported by just about everything, right? You can have Capture One always sync sidecar files, but I find that annoying. If I want to bring an original image into some other program WITH my metadata changes I select the image in Capture One and hit cmd-S. That will create a sidecar file next to the original file with all my Capture One metadata changes.
Try it out. After saving open the created xmp file it with a text editor and take a look at what Capture One saved.
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If I want to bring an original image into some other program WITH my metadata changes I select the image in Capture One and hit cmd-S.
Thanks Marco! Well worth knowing.
I've been using C1 since version 9 and I didn't know that. <blush>
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Marco, this has been very helpful.
I tried setting keyword in C1 for some jpgs and then selected the sync metadata in the image edit menu (also via right clicking). The XMP sidecar file was created. When I open the file in a text editor, I see the keywords there. However, if I look at the file info in Adobe Bridge or Photoshop, I do not. I tried re-syncing and am getting the same results. I open the file in preview (mac) and also no key words (although preview may not be equipped to handle XMP sidecars).
Any thoughts?
A
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I don't use Photoshop or Bridge so can't be of much help with those programs. In Affinity Photo I needed to go into program preferences and check a box so the program would read xmp files. It did not read the files out of the box. Once I change the preference Affinity Photo sees the metadata Capture One writes to the xmp file. Perhaps the Adobe products do something similar?
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C1 writes the keywords into the xmp in two sections, that is "dc" and "lightroom", so I think the Adobe products should at least be able to read the lightroom section.
However, many apps don't look for xmp files for jpg images, as many (if not most apps?) read and write metadata into the jpg files directly, e.g. ACDSee supports xmp for raw files - but not for jpgs.
Also follow Marco's advise wrt. to the app configuration / preferences, I don't have Adobe apps either so no help from my side on this.
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And in case you have the raw files and the jpg files in the same folder and they have the same name (exlc. the file extension), beware that C1 uses the same xmp file for both the raw and the jpg; and Load and Sync sometimes behave not as one would expect, e.g. if I have different keywords in C1 for the raw and jpg, if I sync the raw, then sync the the jpg, the jpg sync does not work until I have loaded metadata first.
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However, many apps don't look for xmp files for jpg images, as many (if not most apps?) read and write metadata into the jpg files directly, e.g. ACDSee supports xmp for raw files - but not for jpgs.
I did not know that. I wonder if such apps also ignore xmp files if the raw file is in dng format? I can imagine Adobe doing that.
I'd probably test by saving metadata for som non dng raw file and see if Photoshop or Bridge see the metadata from the xmp.
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e.g. ACDSee supports xmp for raw files - but not for jpgs.
Of course ACDSee support xmp, what I meant is xmp -files- :-).
They possibly support xmp files for jpgs for their own "acdsee" tags, but not for the exif/iptc keyword tags, if I'm not mistaken.
Tim only has this problem if he has jpg files as his originals (source image files), e.g. OOC.
C1 writes into jpgs created via export/process. But having a jpg as the source and using C1 to add keywords and then export it might not be ideal, as C1 would create a new jpg file, and this is probably not the exact image as the original.
To summarize,
- C1 can create xmp files for raw and jpg "originals", and write keywords into section lightroom and dc.
- C1 can do this with its current version; catalog and session.
- As long as C1 can be run on the PC or Mac, it can be done any time, now or later.
- If you don't rely C1 runs in the future, maybe if you will be cancelling your subscription ahead of creating the xmp files (and a test version might be restricted in the future), or even with a perpetual license it might happen the app doesn't start anymore if C1 went out of business, then think about doing it now / as part of your regular workflow.
- It looks as if most other apps in the industry only write into and read from jpg files directly, C1 does not write anything into any "original" files, including jpgs.
- However, with the xmp files at hand, you might find an app (or a software developer) which can read the xmp files and write into the jpg files. Maybe Exiftool, but this can be a headache.
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Maybe you can export a miniture jpg e.g. 500pixels with the original filename from C1 to hold your keywords.
If you import the minis into your new software, assuming it has a catalog, which reads the keywords and puts them into its catalog, then replace the mini jpgs with the original jpgs on the file system via Explorer/Finder, the software possibly can be tricked and use the keywords in the catalog. But maybe this new software either recognises that it is a different file, or it loads the empty keyword list from the original jpg to the catalog and deletes them all.
Alternatively, find a software which can copy&paste from the minis to the originals (but it should be capable of doing this for a batch!)
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But that's probably a big botch.
If you actually have original out of camera jpgs + raws, it's probably better to do the keywording upfront before you import them into C1, e.g. with Photo Mechanic. So you have at least the most important keywords in the jpg file (and in the xmp sidecar file for the raws). If you then make changes to the keywords in C1 you still could do as discussed above, but test what actually happens.
To be honest, I currently rely on the metadata in the C1 catalog and in the .cos files if I use sessions. I want to become a little bit less dependent on C1 that's why I also think about different solutions (and why I write so much here, as it also helps me brainstorming for myself) :-)
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> BeO: I currently rely on the metadata in the C1 catalog and in the .cos files if I use sessions.
And I do it the oposite way, I use sessions and I do all(!) metadata work in Photo Mechanic. Metadata reload in C1 when/if I need the metadata there. PM is a metadata power tool, C1 isn't and will likely not become one any day soon.
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This is extremely helpful, thank you. I have folders of thousands of images going back to 2003. I want to get sorted, cleaned out, and key words added. I like the idea of adding to a CaptureOne catalogue so that I can always browse that catalogue vs being actually connected to the storage drive.
Sounds like a good workflow for this old file sorting, cleaning and adding meta data would be to do so in photo mechanic, then when ready import (not managed) the files into the CaptureOne Catalogue. If for some reason I needed to make changes to metadata later..do so in photo mechanic and reload in C1. Follow the same for new projects before I bring the images into C1.
I have not used PM before but have heard great things about it.
Make sense?
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> Tim Carpenter: ...then when ready import (not managed) the files into the CaptureOne Catalogue
I use the Photo Mechanic Plus variant, it comes with a capable catalog (added cost) and I prefer it to the C1 catalog, for several reasons. My workflows (yes, plural) may differ from those of other C1 users. Experiment to find tools you like to use for the steps in your workflow(s). One tool to rule them all? Not for me.
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I think it makes sense, OddS and others use PM, and meanwhile there is PM Plus available with an own catalog database, probably a different workflow even without C1 catalog but only C1 sessions. However, offline browsing with C1 catalog is a nice feature.
I just don't think that C1 would be my preferred choice for jpg only images, it can be used though. Consider also how many images you actually have and test with C1 catalog regarding speed.
I downloaded a ACDSee Home as a trial and I like that there is a grid view which you can easily configure to show each field as a column, especially for cleanup of inconsistent and missing keywords.
But, and this is a big but (one t), the IPTC keyword field cannot be edited for multiple images at once, which makes the grid view almost senseless for editing. The own ACDSee keywords are very very comfortable to use, but they cannot be passed to C1 as they use their own tags in the xmp file. I will not buy this app though it has a few advantages and is currently dirt cheap.
I haven't tried PM or Photo Supreme yet, no time to make good use of the 30day trial.
I recommend try out before settling down.
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Tim,
"It seems that when I add a keyword to an image in the catalog it does not add the keyword to the source image file. "
I'm not sure if this observation made it into the discussion above but it's worth mentioning that If you have an image in a session and then import it to a catalog complete with the edit data from the session, the edit data is then entirely independent in each place. I.E. anything you may later change in the session will not make it to the catalog and vice versa.
On the other hand, if you open a image in more then one session using the same version and release of C1* if you edit a file in one session the same edits will appear in the other session since the file has only one .cos setting file associated with it.
* One possible exception to that general session rule is that when the need arises due to application enhancements, C1 may start a new edit file for the new session, using the past edit file(s) as a starting point.
Thus if you have a session started in one version and then open the same files in another version C1 may have 2 entirely separate edit file records saved. Thus, as with a catalog/session relationship, making changes in one version may not apply to images edited in a different version.
All of that is very obscure and very rarely likely to be an issue in practical terms. However, for anyone who finds themselves jumping backwards and forwards between versions of C1 for any reason it may be something to bear in mind should things start to look a little strange from time to time.
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That's a good hint for precaution not to use an older C1 version and navigate to a folder which has been navigated to already with a newer version (unless you know how C1 will behave and that is somehow your intention). It is the Settingsxxx folders to watch out.
One thing about the session which was imported to a catalog, Grant, if you make changes to the session and re-import it again, C1 actually asks you to keep or overwrite, or keep both adjustments. I tested only the overwrite. There is no standard possibility for the other direction though (catalog edits -> session), as you noted.
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I've never tried anything more than a basic import to catalog test, BeO, so that's interesting to know.
I vaguely recall hearing something like that from somewhere some months ago. Maybe a webinar?
Presumably such an activity would be Version aware as well. I'll avoid trying to think through possible complications if it is not!
Any idea how it might deal with, for example, additional variants or Processing engine changes? (Just a couple of things that came to mind as I typed ...)
Sorry, I should not really ask you but rather try things for myself. Maybe one dark winter night ...
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You might possibly know from the forum that the catalog<->session synchronisation is something I would like to see in C1, and because this is not a supported feature I tested a rioundtrip similar to what I think a PM catalog - C1session looks like, i.e. select multiple images in the catalog and drag&drop them to a master session album (empty session without any images in Capture folder), make the edits there (read: stored in the session .cos files) and then re-import the master session.
The fine thing about this is that the images you select in the catalog for dropping to the master session can originate from arbitrary session you have imported before. During these tests I did not pay attention to every detail but I think a re-import should cater for what you listed (add. variants, version etc.).
We are on the edge of autumn already...:-)
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The days are getting shorter ... but really we have to wait for the clocks to change ...
... and I would have to become interested in catalogs?
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:-) yes, use sessions in the summer time and catalogue them in winter...
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