All Images - The Pie Progress - What is C1 Doing?

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39 commentaires

  • Gustavo Ferlizi
    SQL database query.
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  • Dave R
    I have no idea but it taking such a long time (six minutes of thumb twiddling in the case of my 35000 image library) was one of the reasons I have reverted to sessions, using the system folders view and totally ignoring Session Folders and Session Albums, for my Capture One work.
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  • Robert Rakowicz
    Is a known BUG. Phase One does not want to fix it.
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  • xplatinum
    [quote="RobiWan" wrote:
    Is a known BUG. Phase One does not want to fix it.

    Exactly what I'm thinking. This has been present in version 10 and probably before too. Every time I close the app and start it back up I have to endure the whole "generating" of previews/thumbnails. Every. Single. Time.

    VERY annoying.
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  • SFA
    [quote="xplatinum" wrote:
    [quote="RobiWan" wrote:
    Is a known BUG. Phase One does not want to fix it.

    Exactly what I'm thinking. This has been present in version 10 and probably before too. Every time I close the app and start it back up I have to endure the whole "generating" of previews/thumbnails. Every. Single. Time.

    VERY annoying.


    Are you sure?

    If you have a look in the Cache folder what dates do you find associated with the files?

    Are all of them showing with the oldest date being the last time you opened the Session or Catalog?
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  • xplatinum
    [quote="SFA" wrote:
    [quote="xplatinum" wrote:
    [quote="RobiWan" wrote:
    Is a known BUG. Phase One does not want to fix it.

    Exactly what I'm thinking. This has been present in version 10 and probably before too. Every time I close the app and start it back up I have to endure the whole "generating" of previews/thumbnails. Every. Single. Time.

    VERY annoying.


    Are you sure?

    If you have a look in the Cache folder what dates do you find associated with the files?

    Are all of them showing with the oldest date being the last time you opened the Session or Catalog?

    C1 does generate thumbnails ever single time I open the application. And the date and time matches when I opened the app. Every time I open it, a new batch of thumbnails will appear. Even without doing anything other than opening/closing C1.

    I did another test by deleting the content of the thumbnail folder. Everytime I open the app I take note of the number of files its generating and delete them. Every time I open the app the number changes and my previews are the biggest possible for the test. I see 6 on screen. I tried that because I noticed that the more I scroll through photos, the more its generating. So technically it should only generate what I have on screen, but that's not the case either. I have 6 and it generates 150.

    Also the orange pie keeps going even after the generation of the 100ish thumbnails have finished. No one was ever able to tell me whats its doing. But it takes a while and during that time I can see thumbnails appearing again and again until it comes to a stop.
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  • Robert Rakowicz
    [quote="xplatinum" wrote:
    [quote="RobiWan" wrote:
    Is a known BUG. Phase One does not want to fix it.

    Exactly what I'm thinking. This has been present in version 10 and probably before too. Every time I close the app and start it back up I have to endure the whole "generating" of previews/thumbnails. Every. Single. Time.


    You describe 2 errors of the 1 should be fixed with 11.1 / See my Post viewtopic.php?f=72&t=28236 /

    That with " the orange progress pie will appear and I will see images previews appearing in the browser" is a different BUG. Here reads/search C1 the metadata, although it should not do that. Phase One say - we need database redesign but its not true. The same Database (catalog) runs perfect under OSX. All information is available in the database only one has to read it.
    As DAM is C1 unusable under Windows.
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  • Gustavo Ferlizi
    @xplatinum: just to be clear we're on the same boat, previews and thumbnails are different things and processed separately. Previews are the proxy files that the 'fit to screen' editing preview is rendered from. Thumbnails are thumbnails.

    There was a major preview regeneration issue between 10.0.2 and 10.2.1

    I have not experienced it on 11.x yet, although there is another thread claiming that it's back (I think it's the same issue; thumbnails and not previews).

    [quote="xplatinum" wrote:
    C1 does generate thumbnails ever single time I open the application. And the date and time matches when I opened the app. Every time I open it, a new batch of thumbnails will appear. Even without doing anything other than opening/closing C1.

    If you're strictly speaking about the thumbnails that start piling up on the list/grid mode as if you had never accessed that directory before, with or without having previews generated, then as far as I can tell, it is the database refreshing the image list "from scratch" for whatever blessed reason (I think it is, and has been alluded several times to be, if not a bug - a design flaw.)

    [quote="xplatinum" wrote:
    Also the orange pie keeps going even after the generation of the 100ish thumbnails have finished. No one was ever able to tell me whats its doing. But it takes a while and during that time I can see thumbnails appearing again and again until it comes to a stop.


    Again, if we're not talking about preview/proxy files, I think this is the metadata+settings database parse (that comes up in a parallel thread with image listing,plus preview generation if needed), which is a major toll when clicking "all images" on a large catalog or when using some sort of metadata/setting filter like the smart albums.
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  • xplatinum
    [quote="gusferlizi" wrote:
    @xplatinum: just to be clear we're on the same boat, previews and thumbnails are different things and processed separately. Previews are the proxy files that the 'fit to screen' editing preview is rendered from. Thumbnails are thumbnails.

    There was a major preview regeneration issue between 10.0.2 and 10.2.1

    I have not experienced it on 11.x yet, although there is another thread claiming that it's back (I think it's the same issue; thumbnails and not previews).

    [quote="xplatinum" wrote:
    C1 does generate thumbnails ever single time I open the application. And the date and time matches when I opened the app. Every time I open it, a new batch of thumbnails will appear. Even without doing anything other than opening/closing C1.

    If you're strictly speaking about the thumbnails that start piling up on the list/grid mode as if you had never accessed that directory before, with or without having previews generated, then as far as I can tell, it is the database refreshing the image list "from scratch" for whatever blessed reason (I think it is, and has been alluded several times to be, if not a bug - a design flaw.)


    That's exactly what it appears to be. Thumbnails are pilling up as if it just discovered the files for the first time. It's not the thumbnail that's refreshing. It's litteraly the images that are appearing one after the other even though they were always there at the same location.

    [quote="xplatinum" wrote:
    Also the orange pie keeps going even after the generation of the 100ish thumbnails have finished. No one was ever able to tell me whats its doing. But it takes a while and during that time I can see thumbnails appearing again and again until it comes to a stop.

    Again, if we're not talking about preview/proxy files, I think this is the metadata+settings database parse (that comes up in a parallel thread with image listing,plus preview generation if needed), which is a major toll when clicking "all images" on a large catalog or when using some sort of metadata/setting filter like the smart albums.


    That looks like it. Boggles my mind as to why it would need to parse every single time the app is opened. I don't want to play the comparison game but I've never had such issues with LR so I'm having a hard time believe that it is justified in C1.
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  • cdc
    For what it's worth, this is only an issue on Windows versions of CO. On a Mac CO operates as you would expect it to, no waiting each time you open a session.
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  • Gustavo Ferlizi
    [quote="xplatinum" wrote:
    That's exactly what it appears to be. Thumbnails are pilling up as if it just discovered the files for the first time. It's not the thumbnail that's refreshing. It's litteraly the images that are appearing one after the other even though they were always there at the same location.

    That looks like it. Boggles my mind as to why it would need to parse every single time the app is opened. I don't want to play the comparison game but I've never had such issues with LR so I'm having a hard time believe that it is justified in C1.

    Ok, glad we're on the same page now.

    This stuff is particularly frustrating, because as RobiWan alluded, it's been there for a few years at least.

    Interesting that as claimed above this behaviour does not show up on Mac.
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  • xplatinum
    It is very frustrating. How can this still be broken after YEARS. I'm starting to think that it will never be fixed else it would already have been.

    /edit : I would love to have a dev/mod input on this. Something more promising than "it's on our list". This has been on "the list" for years already. I'm all for paying more for top tier applications but this is basic functionality bug that affects a whole platform when selecting "all images".
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  • Robert Rakowicz
    [quote="xplatinum" wrote:
    It is very frustrating. How can this still be broken after YEARS. I'm starting to think that it will never be fixed else it would already have been.


    I think it's easy to explain
    1. The primary development and support!!! platform is OSX (mostly when I report a BUG comes back, we can not reproduce. Only when I ask if they have really tried on Windows, comes a confirmation.). After years hat C1 on Windows no programming interface (Powershell). For years, however, there is AppleScript support under OSX

    2. I think C1 has more OSX user
    3. In German forums, I read very often that people do not report BUGs on Windows because they do not expect them to ever be fixed. People are building any workarounds instead of banging on fixing the problem

    There are some other points that are very frustrating, so by the end of the year I will switch to other like my very good software (ON1 Photo RAW). I'm over 100 EUR / year for small BUG fixing too much. Above all, the support is very bad in my opinion.
    I had also several times told the support, how to significantly alleviate the compatibility problems between Media Pro and C1 - not interested.
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  • xplatinum
    [quote="RobiWan" wrote:
    [quote="xplatinum" wrote:
    It is very frustrating. How can this still be broken after YEARS. I'm starting to think that it will never be fixed else it would already have been.


    I think it's easy to explain
    1. The primary development and support!!! platform is OSX (mostly when I report a BUG comes back, we can not reproduce. Only when I ask if they have really tried on Windows, comes a confirmation.). After years hat C1 on Windows no programming interface (Powershell). For years, however, there is AppleScript support under OSX

    2. I think C1 has more OSX user

    I get that but then why charge the same amount for both platforms? It's absurd that Windows users are getting less quality and support.
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  • SFA
    [quote="xplatinum" wrote:

    I get that but then why charge the same amount for both platforms? It's absurd that Windows users are getting less quality and support.


    Would you want 2 different licenses if you happened to use both Apple and Windows?

    If one accepts that more users choose Mac hardware then the cost of development and support on Mac is spread across more licences than the costs of Windows support. I suspect more effort is involved in Windows support (because more things are built into the controlled Mac OS and used directly by the code - sometimes a benefit, sometimes not.)

    The only real difference - other than the way that the different OS's implement features (or fail to implement features) is the availability of Apple Script - something that perhaps has more development and more consistent support from Apple than one might expect from a similar Microsoft product given their recent history.

    But in any case whilst there are differences I personally don't see a wide gap in what is available in the core software for the typical user who would have no intention of getting into any form of programming.

    I don't really think there is a strong case yet made for the claim of Mac preference and Windows ignored in the first place.



    Grant
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  • Robert Rakowicz
    [quote="SFA" wrote:

    I don't really think there is a strong case yet made for the claim of Mac preference and Windows ignored in the first place.


    Already to version 10.x I got response from the support, that the 2 BUGS, in next update are fixed. Nothing happens. Then came the promise that it will happen next release so 11.0. Then came the statement that for time reasons they can not do it anymore. But in any case it gets fixed with 11.1. Shortly before the Release came the statement that it is unfortunately not possible, because here a redesign of the database is necessary. Which is not true by the way.

    If that's not enough, then I do not know.

    By the way, even for a backup, an interface would be a great relief.

    It talks so easy if you yourself are not affected by the problems!!!
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  • Gustavo Ferlizi
    [quote="RobiWan" wrote:
    when I report a BUG comes back, we can not reproduce

    So true I nearly spat my tea. 😂 😂 😂

    If the support ticket page wasn't so low contrast it would be much easier to converse with the helpdesks.
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  • MPW1950-2
    This my biggest bugbear with v11.1 and has been for some time now. I do all my image editing in C1Pro on Win 10 (8 core CPU and 16Gb ram) and there is no way I am switching to Apple (too closed and controlling comapny) or subscribing to Adobe. I now use Fuji X, previously Canon, so I have limited choice of raw converter/image processor. I use a catalog wioth 80k+ images.

    This has been a problem for several versions. As a former programmer surely this processing should be happening in a background thread, especially once the selected page of image previews/thumbnails have been loaded?

    If anybody comes along with a an alternative raw converter that works well with Fuji RAF files (Iridient on Win perhaps) I would be very tempted to switch even though in pretty well all other respects I am very happy with C1Pro. I have been a user since I picked up a copy of Version 1 or 2 at Focus photo exhibition in the UK, probably in 2003 or 4. SO as you can image switching would be a big decision as all my processing is stored in C1 catalog.

    Come on Phase One, in most other respects your support is good, but with this problem, and it is a problem, you are letting yourself and the product down. I will raise a bug report when my Anti-virus (Panda Adaptive Defense 360) removes its block on v 11.1.1 and I can create log file.
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  • Robert Rakowicz
    [quote="MPW1950-2" wrote:

    If anybody comes along with a an alternative raw converter that works well with Fuji RAF files


    I'm not Fuji user but i'm testing ON1 Photo RAW and I find the software is pretty good
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  • Cass Cassim
    Thank you everyone for your comments.

    I actually wrote an extension of this thread, with my comments about the poor functioning of the DAM and database operations, in a long letter to Phase One, which I also posted on this forum (viewtopic.php?t=28284&f=72). Don't bother to click that link; it appears that the whole thread has now been deleted. ☹️

    While I understand the right of the moderators to delete any posts that might be offensive or in bad taste, I believe that deletion of well-balanced and constructive posts that indicate a failing of the software is not really in the spirit of an open feedback forum for users. This now leaves a rather bad taste, and I would not be surprised to see this post/thread be deleted along with it.

    It is a shame that such a successful company as PhaseOne cannot readily accept the feedback of its user base, and take that information in a positive manner to proactively enhance their software. I certainly do not post here or send them bug reports as any form of malice. I believe that as a whole, the Capture One software design is pretty good, and better than almost all the rest, and we, as users, are just trying to feedback those issues, which, if fixed, would propel the software to greater heights.

    Rather sad at the outcome, but for now, I will continue to provide feedback and hope that the next version of the software will fix some of the major flaws regularly highlighted by its users.
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  • Robert Rakowicz
    [quote="easycass" wrote:
    Don't bother to click that link; it appears that the whole thread has now been deleted. ☹️


    This is nothing new that Phase One can not deal with critical posts and instead of taking a position simply deletes the posts.
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  • Adam Christensen
    I have reported this issue formally. Has everyone else done so too? I'm willing to bother them through official channels in order to get this resolved. I hate that this isn't an issue on MacOS but is on windows
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  • Cass Cassim
    [quote="pope" wrote:
    I have reported this issue formally. Has everyone else done so too?


    Yes, I have. I generally write a message to their Support page, and have now started copying those things into the forum, although my recent post-deletion makes me less likely to do so in the future. I will generally give them a list of all the things I have found 'faulty', and the response is usually that the 'information has been passed onto the developers'...

    I do wonder... They must surely know about these various issues, the problems are just so blatant, so I guess it must come down to the importance they place on the issue. Anything that does not rate high enough, will remain outstanding for numerous version updates. I don't know if the importance they place on an issue is proportional to the amount of times it is highlighted to them, but worth a try I guess...
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  • Robert Rakowicz
    [quote="pope" wrote:
    I have reported this issue formally. Has everyone else done so too?


    Of course and I know other people who did it. Meanwhile, we all turn away from the company to different software.
    It's a shame but this situation for years is unacceptable.
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  • Adam Christensen
    Yeeesh. When I was working with support it was like they had no idea what I was talking about and if this was even an issue at all.
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  • Dave R
    I am sure I have raised this when beta testing and have had the can't reproduce reply. The problem is that I do not think that they test with a nearly big enough data set.
    I have to patiently wait 6 minutes for everything to load before I can do a search of my complete 37000 image collection.
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  • SFA
    [quote="David532" wrote:
    I am sure I have raised this when beta testing and have had the can't reproduce reply. The problem is that I do not think that they test with a nearly big enough data set.
    I have to patiently wait 6 minutes for everything to load before I can do a search of my complete 37000 image collection.


    I don't have a big enough catalogue (being a session user) to check this.

    However my current project is a session with just over 1500 images so the pie slice takes a little while to complete and gives me time to check a few things.

    The is nothing, in the session process at least, that prevents me from applying any of the several filter methods available while the pie is completing and the results are delivered almost instantaneously. To clarify that - it I select search criteria that will return only a few images it's instantaneous. If I select something that will include 50% of the total it may not be quite instantaneous to complete the full selection but shortens the load time and the image count adjusts immediately if using a pre-prepared index - star rating for example or any of the filters listed in the Library tab.

    Now this is a brief and very unscientific test but was quick to try. I don't think I have a catalog with more that a few hundred images - so hardly enough to allow using a filter before a full load would complete.

    If someone with a large catalog could try something similar and see different results I could cobble a large catalog together and run a test but I don't really have the time to do so today - nor the inclination unless I know it's something that is worth doing!


    Grant
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  • Cass Cassim
    [quote="David532" wrote:
    I have to patiently wait 6 minutes for everything to load before I can do a search of my complete 37000 image collection.


    Hmmm, that is interesting; very similar to what I had initially. Just for you to compare, I thought I would explain in more detail my current situation...

    I used to have to wait for many things to settle down when I opened my 75,000 image database. I had the following issues after importing (raw files, plus sidecar XMP files that had been generated from LR): -

    1. Selecting all images would lock me out of doing anything for minutes, tens of minutes sometimes.
    2. The pie counter at the top would take approximately 20+ minutes to complete.
    3. Although previews were generated on import, thumbnails were not (go figure). So, anytime I scrolled to thumbnails that had not looked at before, they were generated. This occasionally caused me to have to wait.
    4. Keywords were a mess, and not in the nice hierarchy I had in LR. Changing a keyword on a few images, I would have to wait until the action was complete before I could continue.
    5. Every time I selected a folder or all images, all the filter counters would regenerate, starting from no images, until all 75,000 had been looked at. Sometimes, clicking on a filter to display those images would cause the counting to begin again.
    6. Any smart collections with more than a thousand images would lock out the program for quite a few minutes.
    7. Lots of waiting around, with no program response, and occasional window 'flashing', with title bar showing 'not responding', etc.
    8. Trying to verify and repair the database, I found it produced errors and sometimes came back as 'cannot be repaired'. I would have to go back to a backup database file at time.

    However, I progressively did the following over a few days: -

    1. Go through all keywords, and clean-up into a totally new hierarchy. This caused a lot of time in between a keyword change or hierarchy move. It would also cause the program to appear to hang, but if I waited 20 minutes, I would get back control. Every time I found this happening severely, I went and did step 2.
    2. Load in a dummy database and then go and do a verify and repair my main database. I found that a repair was possible if the main database was completely unloaded and a dummy database was loaded. I repeated step 1 until all keywords were fine, and no more database corruptions were occurring.

    So, now, when I start the program, I still get the pie thing happening, counting from zero to 75K images, but my filter panel starts up fully populated and does no longer regenerate. I am not locked out of doing anything, but occasionally switching folder or clicking back on all images, or hitting some filters, causes a few seconds delay. It is not fluid, but I no longer get database corruptions.

    It took me more than a week to get things kind of stable. But, if I do something complicated beyond selection a few images, such as creating a smart collection, I get program no-response for a few minutes. I just leave it until it gives me back control.

    That's where I am at anyway...
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  • Dave R
    SFA:
    I am in 2 minds about using Lightroom for the catalogue and then using Capture One in session mode (which is what I used to do). When I do this I set up a single session and, this is important, totally ignore this session specific folders, albums and favorites and work entirely in the system folders which I have set up in a highly structured manner (folders for holidays with sub-folders for location and sub-sub-folders for date etc.for instance). In this way I can search the Lightroom database, note the location, and then open the Capture One session and locate the picture I want to work on in the system folders.

    easycass:

    I had similar struggles in getting my keywords from Lightroom into the Capture One catalogue, somehow, and I am now not sure how, I succeeded at the expense of my hard drives being littered with thousands of xmp files which I have since deleted as I have no further use for them.
    I have notice that during the 6 minutes of thumbnail creation (if that's what's going on) the keyword list in the Library Tool Tab populates immediately but selecting a keyword does not show the associated pictures till the orange disk action has got round to them which if they are at the end of your selected sort order could be a long time.
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  • SFA
    David,

    If you plan to use sessions anyway I think you have other workflow options open to you, with or without Lightroom as the search engine.

    One option I have considered, since I don't see any personal need to put my shoots into single or even multiple catalogues for processing purposes, is to catalogue only jpg outputs. Small files but keyworded.

    If I'm going to process 1000 new images I really do not need 100,000 old ones available at the same time. But for archive searches I can see the purpose of a catalogue - though only if I spend a lot of time working on the metadata and keywords of the older files.

    It's tempting to do so ... in theory. But for a handful of uses a year I'm not sure I can justify the effort. It could result in quite a compact catalogue if I had a need to take it on the road.

    Alternatively simply keep the Catalogue open. I leave sessions open for days at a time (weeks sometimes) when I am working with them, avoiding opening and closing unless a program or Windows update comes along and insists on restarting the system. My experiments with small catalogues from time to time seemed to be OK if I left the catalogue open as well - though perhaps a small catalogue is not a fully representative test.

    HTH.


    Grant
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