pricing and improving...

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36 commentaires

  • Samoreen
    [quote="Amundsen64" wrote:
    Some bugs are acceptable in each new version - but cashing 159€ without a new manual is unprofessional.


    A long tradition at Phase One. You said the word : not professional (and overpriced).
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  • SFA
    [quote="Amundsen64" wrote:
    Yes, there are some really nice features in V12, and the UI has been improved.

    But after upgrading for 159€ I can expect that the ?-/help-buttons are pointing to a NEW online help, not to the help-sites of V11. NO WAY 😡

    How can I deal the new mask features if there is no online help?

    Some bugs are acceptable in each new version - but cashing 159€ without a new manual is unprofessional.

    And for the german users it would be great if this terrible mix of english and german menuitems and contents of the online help could be fixed soon 😕


    I'm sure the Help files will be updated shortly but in the meantime the release notes should provide some guidance and I see there are some videos on the Resource Hub to help explain the new features. That said the mask features you mention are quite intuitive.

    The Luminosity masking may take some practise of course - but the intent is quite obvious.

    I'm not sure if there is a German version of the videos available.

    HTH.


    Grant
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  • Paul Spatafora
    I think as a long time CO user, this will probably be my last upgrade. As I have written Phase One so many times, and with little effect, CO is way behind the competition with respect to features and capabilities. I find it humorous that CO can charge for filters where it's competition offers them as a carrot to buy. Rearranging the UI, and adding a few fixes and then charging $209 CAD for this is an insult. In the new year, I'm going to seriously audition ON1, Affinity, DxO and several others tools to see if I can change my workflow. I might, gasp!!! go back to LR. I'll do a few projects with LR and compare them to my current CO output and see if there is really a difference.

    Here's a partial list of things I've been asking for forever:

    1. A real brush tool.
    2. Make the automasking really work
    3. A magic wand tool for things like selecting white backgrounds
    4. A blur tool, especially now that you actually improved the gradient and circular masking.
    5. I would like to add the picture number to my proofs along with my logo. CO only offers one or the other. I have been asking for this for many many years. I have to use a freeware too to accomplish this.
    6. I would like to have a floating tool palette so that in dual monitor mode I can have it at hand. I use 2 30" monitors.
    7. Every tool adds filters as a hook to purchase there tools, yet CO charges Bugatti prices for them. Really!!!!
    8. It would be great, maybe a wish to use PS Plugins in a layer. I use two all the time. Remask 5 and Portrait PRO

    I'm a meat and potatoes photographer. You'll never see me on You tube, or in a national campaign, but I'm trying to make a living as a photographer. I'm seriously considering this as an alternative. https://www.dxo.com/dxo-photolab

    I have voiced my complained many times with CO, so I guess the only recourse is to find another solution that will better fulfill my needs.

    Paul
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  • Amundsen64
    [quote="SFA" wrote:

    I'm sure the Help files will be updated shortly but in the meantime the release notes should provide some guidance and a I see there are some videos on the Resource Hub to help explain the new features.

    The Luminosity masking may take some practise of course - but the intent is quite obvious.

    Grant


    So I am too stupid: spent a half hour to play with the luminosity mask without getting full control over it.
    It is very disappointing to pay for an upgrade without a valid manual.

    And the videotutorials are not the way for me:
    I want to edit/improve my pics not by watching and scrolling endless videos. And for me as german user it's difficult to follow them.
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  • Filthy Lucre
    My upgrade from C1 Pro 8 to 10 cost $89. Now the cost from 10 to 12 is $169.

    NO!
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  • Lee Grant
    I second that! 2016 upgrade $89us. 2017 upgrade $107us. Now they want $149.99us. Not for me
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  • Jim Hughes
    I was a software engineer, for decades. So I totally get the difficulties in getting a release out the door, and in deciding what to charge for it. But I'm really surprised to see new features pushed out without coverage in the online help. That's bad business, and I have to wonder how it happened.
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  • Amundsen64
    [quote="NNN635125303983928245" wrote:
    I second that! 2016 upgrade $89us. 2017 upgrade $107us. Now they want $149.99us. Not for me


    So we will get Capture One 13 for $199us - and the manual for only $19us... 😎
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  • Jim Hughes
    [quote="NNN635125303983928245" wrote:
    I second that! 2016 upgrade $89us. 2017 upgrade $107us. Now they want $149.99us. Not for me


    I just dropped in here to check the buzz on the upgrade, and I'm in sticker shock. $150 for some new masking features that aren't even in the Help yet? I may pass on this one.
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  • Franz Scherz
    I used V11 with D750/D850 and got 2 month ago my new Z7.
    I got C1 with my D850 as a promo with ~40-50% discount.

    P.s.: I own also DXO Plotolab and there were just recently a similar discussion on v2 upgrades there because they did update 2-3 items only and asked also for an upgrade price of 50%+ of new license! I did not buy it until black friday came and the upgrade was additionally discounted by 50%, so new version had for me a 25% upgrade price!

    Anyhow, the reason why I upgrade is mainly because old versions do not support my Z7!
    The same Problem in Capture One!
    Because of lack of support in DXO and C1 I bought another Software with a 20% introduction discount for ~80$ (It's normally their upgrade price):
    https://www.on1.com/products/photo-raw/

    It has most of the features of DXO and C1 and it could operate with Z7 files!

    I downloaded C1 12 today and tried, it works nicely with Z7 as well but I will not upgrade for that price which is close to what I paid for V11 because the new functions are not worth it.!
    I will continue to use On1 and DXO for now until C1 will make a better offer for the upgrade.
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  • Amundsen64
    [quote="NN635790973675498599UL" wrote:
    I was a software engineer, for decades. So I totally get the difficulties in getting a release out the door, and in deciding what to charge for it. But I'm really surprised to see new features pushed out without coverage in the online help. That's bad business, and I have to wonder how it happened.



    Thanks for these words.

    It's easy to understand that smaller software factories have to charge more than global player f.e. Adobe who sells millions of licences.

    And i like to support smaller biz using their amazing software like C1 (YES!!!) by paying more, also for upgrades.
    A classical WIN-WIN!

    But if it turns to "bad business" I have to change my strategy...
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  • Nils Christoffersen
    Hi,

    The online help for Capture One 12 is here:



    The default will also point to the current release.
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  • Amundsen64
    [quote="NilsWilleC" wrote:
    Hi,

    The online help for Capture One 12 is here:



    The default will also point to the current release.



    As a wrote: clicking the ?-sign of my brandnew C1 12 (build 12.0.0.291) points to version 11!
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  • Jim Hughes
    [quote="NilsWilleC" wrote:
    Hi,

    The online help for Capture One 12 is here:



    The default will also point to the current release.


    Ok so just a bad link in the release then.
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  • Class A
    [quote="Amundsen64" wrote:
    [quote="SFA" wrote:

    I'm sure the Help files will be updated shortly but in the meantime the release notes should provide some guidance and a I see there are some videos on the Resource Hub to help explain the new features.

    There is actually an online help for version 12, including a description of the luma range mask feature.
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  • Christian Gruner
    [quote="NN635790973675498599UL" wrote:
    I was a software engineer, for decades. So I totally get the difficulties in getting a release out the door, and in deciding what to charge for it. But I'm really surprised to see new features pushed out without coverage in the online help. That's bad business, and I have to wonder how it happened.


    It's bug in CO12 for Windows. The documentation exists, as you see from previous post.
    We are working to fix the issue, sorry for the inconvenience.
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  • Amundsen64
    I am very happy to read a first "sorry"!

    And pressing F1 (or via menu->help->online-manual) points also to V11



    I assume that you have many german speaking customers. Any plans to create a german version of the online-manual?

    If my english would be better I didn't hesitate create a german version at once 😊
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  • Christian Gruner
    [quote="Amundsen64" wrote:
    I am very happy to read a first "sorry"!

    And pressing F1 (or via menu->help->online-manual) points also to V11



    I assume that you have many german speaking customers. Any plans to create a german version of the online-manual?

    If my english would be better I didn't hesitate create a german version at once 😊


    I can't comment on potential future development, but you are welcome to to put in feature request with our Support team, http://www.phaseone.com/support/
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  • Jim Hughes
    [quote="Christian Gruner" wrote:
    [quote="NN635790973675498599UL" wrote:
    I was a software engineer, for decades. So I totally get the difficulties in getting a release out the door, and in deciding what to charge for it. But I'm really surprised to see new features pushed out without coverage in the online help. That's bad business, and I have to wonder how it happened.


    It's bug in CO12 for Windows. The documentation exists, as you see from previous post.
    We are working to fix the issue, sorry for the inconvenience.



    Understood, thanks. I just tried V12 but it's tough to get into the new things when every '?' icon points to the old version. I'm assuming the installers will be updated as soon as this is fixed and I'll wait for that.
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  • SFA
    [quote="NN635790973675498599UL" wrote:
    [quote="Christian Gruner" wrote:
    [quote="NN635790973675498599UL" wrote:
    I was a software engineer, for decades. So I totally get the difficulties in getting a release out the door, and in deciding what to charge for it. But I'm really surprised to see new features pushed out without coverage in the online help. That's bad business, and I have to wonder how it happened.


    It's bug in CO12 for Windows. The documentation exists, as you see from previous post.
    We are working to fix the issue, sorry for the inconvenience.



    Understood, thanks. I just tried V12 but it's tough to get into the new things when every '?' icon points to the old version. I'm assuming the installers will be updated as soon as this is fixed and I'll wait for that.


    Not so tough if you just open the V12 User guide and work with that in anther window via your web browser.

    Also the new things are, mostly, very intuitive. A software engineer should have no problems with the concepts.


    I hope this encourages you.

    Grant
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  • EDB
    I guess for some professional photographers the new price is not a big deal, photography is just a hobby of mine, spending a few hundred dollars every few years does not seem affordable to me. I will hang on with V12 for now, but don't know what to do when they charge more for the next version.
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  • redditch
    [quote="NilsWilleC" wrote:
    Hi,

    The online help for Capture One 12 is here:



    The default will also point to the current release.


    Super, thank you! 😄
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  • Diggedy
    I though capture one was really making some ground on becoming the go to editing tool and converting lightroom users.
    Now they have priced themselves out of the running, no-one is going to switch to capture one when they can get both Photoshop AND lightroom for a lot less than capture one alone.
    I've been upgrading since version 7 but I think I'm out now. Version 11 works for me but when I feel the need to upgrade I'll likely look for a product that isn't going to sting you when you get comfortable with its system
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  • SFA
    [quote="Diggedy" wrote:
    ... look for a product that isn't going to sting you when you get comfortable with its system


    That's an interesting perspective and of course it is entirely your right to make that decision.

    Fortunately you will still be able to use C1 V11 for some time - unless you decide to spend a lot of money upgrading your cameras and computer hardware in order to break the level of compatibility available.

    As I understand it that is something that your suggested price comparison solution does not allow?

    Meanwhile please let us know when you find a suitable product that offer you a guarantee that is will be in existence for, say, 5 or 10 years without a change in business strategy of some sort and offers a fixed and guaranteed upgrade price for such an extended period.

    My interest there is twofold.

    Firstly is the product a good one (and could I work with it)?

    Secondly to understand what they have been able to do to offer a guarantee that they can survive and prosper with the business model currently used.

    About 10 years ago I was using some excellent software and happy to pay for the upgrades about every 18 months as was usual at the time. They started a technology update driven new version development and never finished it before closing the business. Some time later the software became available as open source with a small team working on it. One by one they found their lives occupied by other things. As far as I know it is still available. It may even be getting new camera compatibility updates from time to time.

    It's free, so a no cost risk.

    If you are a sessions user it might work for you. The Forum seems to indicate that there is still some activity and some coding being undertaken.


    Grant
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  • mli20
    [quote="Amundsen64" wrote:

    ...
    It's easy to understand that smaller software factories have to charge more than global player f.e. Adobe who sells millions of licences.

    And i like to support smaller biz using their amazing software like C1 (YES!!!) by paying more, also for upgrades.
    ...


    "..smaller software factories have to charge more".

    Well I disagree entirely. Pricing should be determined by demand and market, incl. how demand is related to own prices and those of the competition.

    If Phase One was a charitable organisation I might be willing making a donation, but they are not, they are as we all know a business, and I choose to do business with them, or not, based solely on do I get sufficient value for my money. That you choose differently is perfectly fine by me, but... how it can become a win/win proposition? What do you win?

    And now this:

    "Phase One will discontinue all voucher codes at the end of this year"

    ...to be read at

    MLI
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  • Irvin Gomez
    [quote="SFA" wrote:

    Meanwhile please let us know when you find a suitable product that offer you a guarantee that is will be in existence for, say, 5 or 10 years without a change in business strategy of some sort and offers a fixed and guaranteed upgrade price for such an extended period.

    My interest there is twofold.

    Firstly is the product a good one (and could I work with it)?

    Secondly to understand what they have been able to do to offer a guarantee that they can survive and prosper with the business model currently used.


    If you’re looking for that level of guarantee and performance, the only product that comes close to it is Adobe’s subscription. The best combination overall - not perfect, but certainly closer than all others. In fact, Adobe has lowered, not raised prices in like 4-5 years.
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  • mli20
    [quote="Irvin.Gomez" wrote:
    [quote="SFA" wrote:

    Meanwhile please let us know when you find a suitable product that offer you a guarantee that is will be in existence for, say, 5 or 10 years without a change in business strategy of some sort and offers a fixed and guaranteed upgrade price for such an extended period.

    My interest there is twofold.

    Firstly is the product a good one (and could I work with it)?

    Secondly to understand what they have been able to do to offer a guarantee that they can survive and prosper with the business model currently used.


    If you’re looking for that level of guarantee and performance, the only product that comes close to it is Adobe’s subscription.

    I agree with you in saying Adobe.

    What I find interesting in this discussion is that SFA already answered his own question as to which software etc.:

    [quote="SFA" wrote:

    ...
    Fortunately you will still be able to use C1 V11 for some time...

    even though when other companies are asked to deliver "5 or 10 years", when it comes to Capture One "..for some time" appears to suffice. Shouldn't the software involved be held to the same standards?

    MLI
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  • SFA
    [quote="mli20" wrote:
    [quote="Irvin.Gomez" wrote:
    [quote="SFA" wrote:

    Meanwhile please let us know when you find a suitable product that offer you a guarantee that is will be in existence for, say, 5 or 10 years without a change in business strategy of some sort and offers a fixed and guaranteed upgrade price for such an extended period.

    My interest there is twofold.

    Firstly is the product a good one (and could I work with it)?

    Secondly to understand what they have been able to do to offer a guarantee that they can survive and prosper with the business model currently used.


    If you’re looking for that level of guarantee and performance, the only product that comes close to it is Adobe’s subscription.

    I agree with you in saying Adobe.

    What I find interesting in this discussion is that SFA already answered his own question as to which software etc.:

    [quote="SFA" wrote:

    ...
    Fortunately you will still be able to use C1 V11 for some time...

    even though when other companies are asked to deliver "5 or 10 years", when it comes to Capture One "..for some time" appears to suffice. Shouldn't the software involved be held to the same standards?

    MLI


    My point was, as I suspect you realise, that to justify the comment made by diggedy and quote by me in my earlier post, diggedy needs to consider how long he or she would consider to be an acceptable guarantee of no change of policy in order to be able to assess whether the prospective supplier "isn't going to sting you when you get comfortable with its system".

    Is the implication that the supplier can never change their business model for any reason? Ever?

    Or that if one was comfortable and nothing changed for a known period that would be fine?

    If, say, one agreed a forward contract with the supplier that meant that there was an understanding about what was and was not acceptable in terms of pricing - how long would that contract have to be for it to be acceptable?

    Would diggedy, as a consumer, agree to tie in to paying for that guarantee for the next X years?

    Or would 20 years be necessary to feel comfortable?

    Or, perhaps, 2 years?

    diggedy's original point is, in my opinion, meaningless without referencing some sort of period of agreement to go with a working definition of "sting you".



    Grant
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  • mli20
    [quote="SFA" wrote:
    ... I suspect you realise, ...

    I'm sorry, but you writing this makes it impossible for me to continue being a part of the conversation.

    MLI
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  • SFA
    [quote="mli20" wrote:
    [quote="SFA" wrote:
    ... I suspect you realise, ...

    I'm sorry, but you writing this makes it impossible for me to continue being a part of the conversation.

    MLI


    I'm sorry you feel that way but I really cannot see why you think I would be excluding ANY company from the need to guarantee for years ahead that they would offer a fixed upgrade arrangement and a certainty of being in business in order to appear to satisfy diggedy's decision making needs.

    The comment has nothing to do with which provider one might be considering and everything to do with how on earth in this market one expects the vendor of a consumer priced product to be in a position to even consider offering such a guarantee of both price and functionality. Or at least to be able to offer it with any meaningful certainty.

    If one charges an in advance maintenance fee for a fixed period or a repeating fee over an extended period and writes a contract to cover the terms of that fee arrangement, it might be a viable business proposition. Say 20% per annum if paid in advance?

    Commercial software support and maintenance agreements (things not always covered by subscription arrangements) are often proposed at 15% per annum for businesses based on the value of their "purchase".

    In effect a software licence with upgrades and support will tend to mean paying 100% of the initial charge again every 3 to 5 years. Approximately.

    Alternatively one could choose to take a perpetual licence with, perhaps, first year support - possibly limited to a certain number of hours - and then do nothing about upgrading until absolutely forced to for technical reasons. For support one could either pay as used or rely on a well supported User to User forum or some other web sites.

    Maybe that sort of option could appeal to some C1 users. A half price upgrade but in return no expectation to a service involving personalised support within that price might have some appeal to me. Whether that would also work for Phase One is unknowable.



    Grant
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