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Capture One 12 vs 11 - I'm going back!

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12 commentaires

  • Ian Wilson
    Your choice of course. But if you keep switching between versions, then every time you switch back to the newest version, Capture One will spend time setting up the hardware acceleration. If you don't keep going back to version 11, it should only do it the once. (Until there is a new update, or course.)

    Ian
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  • Jim_DK
    This is the app optimizing the pre-cache for OpenCL and does it once on first run for the application.

    If you switch back and forth, it will have to do it again for the "new" app as unfortunately there is no versioning for the cache mechanism, so going back might mean you don't have to do this, but then it's not really a sustainable solution.

    If you need to switch back and forth a lot (?) then you can disable OpenCL from the prefs.

    If you would like us to consider this as a feature then please log a support case with http://support.phaseone.com
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  • Delwood
    Thanks for your help on the OpenCL optimization that is going on. Perhaps I can tell C1 11 to not optimize? Would this stop the back and forth?

    I am stuck partly because I am still using two MBP, and one is an old MBP that is stuck on an older OS X and thus stuck at Capture One 11. This older laptop is where I work on my old Aperture catalogs and my old Media Pro catalogs. I am working to move this forward, but in the meantime, if I pull an Aperture or MediaPro Catalog into Capture One, it ends up in Capture One 11. If I want to use this older computer, I need the files in C1 11 format. This is just terrible.

    I hope that a lightning bolt strikes around PhaseOne and jogs the developers and planners into designing Catalog databases that hold onto backward compatibility. If you can't do that then you might as well stop working. Take a break for a year or two. The whole idea of a catalog is that it should be a stable entity. I want to be able to pull a C1 11 database out of the archives in 2030 and open it without modification with the current version of C1. Otherwise, you are not making a Catalog!

    The transitions from Aperture or Media Pro are complicated because many photos have been split into different edits (we used to call those variants) that have independent lives. the only way to make these splits in C1 is to duplicate and rename the original files. Argh! Ridiculous!

    I really like the color editing and potential of Capture One. I've even been supporting it to friends that are considering switching from Aperture to Lightroom. So Phase One, are you going to get it together on catalogs or get left in the dust?
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  • SFA
    [quote="Delwood" wrote:


    I hope that a lightning bolt strikes around PhaseOne and jogs the developers and planners into designing Catalog databases that hold onto backward compatibility. If you can't do that then you might as well stop working.


    That would be quite a novel achievement in the software industry for any product that is including new functionality.

    Maybe Apple could help out as well by working on backwards compatibility at the OS level?

    Or forwards compatibility - or whatever is required.

    Grant
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  • Delwood
    [quote="SFA" wrote:

    That would be quite a novel achievement in the software industry for any product that is including new functionality.
    ...
    Grant


    Perhaps the important concept here is cataloging versus editing. I can still open 10 and 20 year old catalogs from
    iView Media Pro (the original one before Microsoft and PhaseOne) or CD Finder (the precursor to the excellent NeoFinder).
    Why can't Capture One do this? There are new things that are not mentioned in the old catalogs, but the catalogs still function the same way they did 20 years ago. Really, if you can't do this then stop making catalogs.

    The point is that when the new software still recognizes and can read the old catalogs, that we are preserving our
    Cultural Heritage. I am currently working on this with my own collection of Photos, Writing, Spreadsheets and
    Data going back to 1975.

    Can you still open anything from 1990? Yeah, well that's the problem.

    [quote="SFA" wrote:

    Maybe Apple could help out as well by working on backwards compatibility at the OS level?


    So actually, OS X is built on UNIX/Linux. So the deeper backwards compatibility is there. Most of the unix programs that I use are compiling as 64 bit apps and still work just fine. C, Perl, Python, etc are not going anywhere. Data is still data.

    I just went through opening images from a Kodak PhotoCD from 1999. There were 99 scans from carefully selected slides. The only useful program that would open and convert these images turned out to be ...... Media Pro. I was able to resave these images as high-resolution TIFFs. Had I waited another year, I would not have been so lucky.

    I hear many stories of people saving an old computer so that they can access data from that time period. This is weird.
    What is Phase One going to pass on to 2030? The time to decide is now.
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  • SFA
    In your text you have some answers to your own questions.

    It's worth noting that, so long as there is an operating system that will support the code - especially older 32bit products - older versions of software will usually work.

    In that context Phase make old versions of C1, going back several years, available for download. Also the current versions will support older versions of the processing engines and it is quite possible to have variants of an image that use different engine versions if one so wishes when working with previously processed images.

    Long term archival and retrieval has always been a challenge to people no matter what the media or material is involved. The computer era has often been an accelerated example of that - notably with backup systems.

    In general with C1 it is still possible to open older catalogues, convert them to the latest catalogue data structure standards and automatically save a copy of the original catalogue at its revision level. The edits can be retained as they were originally developed going back a long way in terms of the life time of C1's existence.

    Unless one has a completely frozen product - as a number of DAM systems seem to be, presumably a requirement for ease of backwards compatibility or simply because there is little more to develop and most users would not choose to pay for the latest version anyway so no way to cover the costs - there will always be issues of forward compatibility - which is what you seem to be asking for.

    If you simply want a file managing library tool then at the base level and accepting period limited functionality the older mature products, warts and all, may be sufficient. But they cannot be readily expected to offer greater embedded support for application functionality that was introduced at a later point in time. Nor will they be likely to natively deal with any new digital assets standards that are successfully introduced and become widely adopted if no one is developing the applications.

    In general C1 catalogue users who post in the forum (that may or may not be a representative sample of all users) seem to want additional functionality that would take development off in many directions.

    One could argue that it might be possible to undertake development that could cater for working with older catalogues as they currently exist but whilst that is probably of importance as a working principle to archivists I doubt it matters to the majority of users who are primarily interested in edit a few images and moving on to the next project. All with the lowest possible investment in software.

    For those passionately involved in Archival work one of the primary concepts will be keeping the archived content in a format that does not tie the archive into any particular OEM restrictions or operating system/development tool driven requirements. That will give products a longer life but they will still have some future hoops to jump through at some point. Things like being forced to update from 32bit code for example and similar steps in even earlier times.

    FWIW I also run C1 V11 and V12 side by side (for now with a few C11 started Session projects to finish or choose to convert) but on a 6 years old Dell Notebook workstation running Windows V7. So I see the same sort of behaviour that you see when initiating the Hardware acceleration driver software. However it takes maybe 10 to 15 seconds at most no matter what else the system is doing so it's not something that is an issue for me in terms of performance.

    I don't really see why Phase should be expected to make compromises and incur costs beyond what they already offer in order to cater for (minor?) operational constraints that are not of their making and could be dealt with in other ways (as, presumably, they are by most users).

    Certainly it is not something I would expect. Backward compatibility in terms of upgrading to the newest code - yes, good idea and that is what is offered. But to retain all the older code (where technically possible) and just bloat the product as it is developed does not seem to be a viable long term objective for a version of a product aimed at a broad spread of consumers, most of whom will move forward with it or, just as likely, move products and follow latest 'fashion' anyway, thus making the concept of long term forwards compatibility redundant anyway.

    Just my thoughts of course. No doubt we will see many different opinions from others who may choose to comment.


    Grant
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  • Ian Wilson
    However it takes maybe 10 to 15 seconds at most no matter what else the system is doing so it's not something that is an issue for me in terms of performance.

    If only...

    Ian
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  • SFA
    [quote="Ian3" wrote:
    However it takes maybe 10 to 15 seconds at most no matter what else the system is doing so it's not something that is an issue for me in terms of performance.

    If only...

    Ian


    So it this a "technical differences between Windows and Mac" thing?

    Grant
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  • ericnepean
    As a test, I just opened a catalog written by Capture One 9, in the summer of 2016. This is the oldest catalog I have on hand. Some of the images were imported and adjusted using Capture One 8, others with Capture One 9.

    I knew that CO12 would upgrade the catalog, so I made a copy of the catalog, and opened the copy. Just in case.

    Capture One 12 upgraded the catalog to current format and it opened flawlessly.

    I no longer have Capture One 9 installed. In fact, CO 9 might not run under OSX 10.13. I would expect even more problems with Capture One 9 when I upgrade to OSX 10.15.

    Truth be told, I have no use for a catalog in Capture One 9 format.

    The important thing is that in the upgraded catalog, the engine used to render the RAW images is still the original Capture One 8 or Capture One 9 rendering engine.

    IMO Capture One has made entirely the right decisions by enabling Catolog database upgrades, and maintaining the original rendering engine.
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  • Ian Wilson
    IMO Capture One has made entirely the right decisions by enabling Catolog database upgrades, and maintaining the original rendering engine.


    Definitely! If you are happy with the way you had adjusted an image using an older engine, you wouldn't want the look of the image to be changed by it being automatically upgraded to the new engine.

    Ian
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  • Picman
    [quote="Ian3" wrote:
    IMO Capture One has made entirely the right decisions by enabling Catolog database upgrades, and maintaining the original rendering engine.


    Definitely! If you are happy with the way you had adjusted an image using an older engine, you wouldn't want the look of the image to be changed by it being automatically upgraded to the new engine.

    Ian


    I am afraid this can indeed be the case. In November 2018 I submitted a case to support concerning the considerable change in color that happened going from a picture that was rendered in V7 to being upgraded in v11. The color change was absolutely serious. Support answered: "We worked hard on rendering colour more accurately in the versions between Capture One 7 and 11 and it is normal for the colour and overall tonality in your images to look different." and "Between Capture One 7 and 11, there have been a lot of changes, so this difference in colour is no surprise. Even between Capture One 10 and 11, you will likely see differences in the colour engine."

    I am not making this statement as a critique on the way C1 does things, just to point out that changes do happen when upgrading, as admitted by PhaseOne themselves.

    Cheers, Bob.
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  • Ian Wilson
    Indeed. If ever I am tempted to upgrade the engine on an older image, I always do it on a cloned variant. That way I still have the original (version 7 or whatever) and I can experiment with the new engine as well. 9 times out of 10, I can produce a better look using the new engine (both because it has more capabilities, and because since I edited the image several years ago I have improved my skills).

    Ian
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