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C1 11 and a potentially big problem with styles

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25 commentaires

  • Christian Gruner
    Please see my answer to almost the same question here:
    viewtopic.php?f=72&t=27144#p128252
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  • alessandro cecconi
    [quote="Christian Gruner" wrote:
    Please see my answer to almost the same question here:
    https://forum.phaseone.com/En/viewtopic ... 44#p128252

    Christian, I have read your answer. I understand your point but... on old images we keep the engine 10 but what about new images?? How do you suppose we deal with that? I ,and am sure a lot of other people, now have a bunch of style, some of which represent our photographic style that we have to throw out and re do from scratch. So far I have not been able to replicate anything near close to what I had. And I am not the only one as you know. While you might think this is a new feature, it is indeed a major issue that will cause some ripples. You can not go and change the way your engine renders variation and mess with styles in the way 11 does. It is not a feature Christian. I am sure you will hear from more important customers than me, then perhaps you will pay more attention to the issue. Meanwhile the only solution is to stay with 10 for as long as possible and hope for the best.
    Thank you for your new feature

    Best
    Alessandro
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  • VAD.
    I purchased the PhaseOne Spectrum styles and RNI Film styles for a total of 130€, both not working in v11....
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  • Glogg
    I tested the same styles (including the sample ones sold by Phase One), in Engine 10 and Engine 11.

    WOW, just WOW. The styles produce vastly different resulting images. So, basically, the styles created for Engine 10 produce what authors intended, while the styles applied in Engine 11 just show random results, completely unintended by the authors (different lightness levels due to different behavior of Levels instrument AND different color results due to changes in Color Editor).

    So, those who created/purchased styles before Capture One 11 was released are basically loosing most of their presets (or at the very least the presets produce non-authentic results, they are NOT intended by the authors of the presets), INCLUDING the commercial presets by Phase One itself, which amazes me to no end.

    This is bad. And the attitude by Phase One is even worse ☹️ (not a big deal, this is a feature, not a bug). Believe it or not, but for some users the quality of the picture is quite important (and some users spent quite a lot of money and/or energy purchasing/creating presets).

    In short: If you value your presets, stick with "Engine 10".
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  • SFA
    It is a rather interesting challenge to consider how changes can ever be made to the the underlying processing routines if the functionality of pre-sets and styles, bought or self generated, are thought to be sacrosanct.

    With most such considerations the pre-set/style will, at some point, be modified by the author if they feel it is worth doing. Or, especially if one sees styles as a starting point for one's own interpretation, they could be modified and saved as one's own version.

    Or perhaps some sort of adapter could be devised. Maybe in real time or as a batch process to create a revised set of adjustments, version identified, based on the previous originals.

    Such is the nature of progress I suppose.


    Grant.
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  • Glogg
    [quote="SFA" wrote:
    It is a rather interesting challenge to consider how changes can ever be made to the the underlying processing routines if the functionality of pre-sets and styles, bought or self generated, are thought to be sacrosanct.

    All the styles created with the specific engine version in mind do have that information in them (just look into the XML files that describe the styles). So, at the very minimum, the UI could (and should) provide this info to the end user, warning that the particular style was created for the older engine.

    At the moment though, there is zero indication in the UI and the users are left guessing if the style works properly or not (most users are probably not even aware that the style works incorrectly, not as expected).

    If the UI shows the warning or provides this info somehow to the user, then the users can make an educated decision, to use or not to use the style, and they will be aware of the issue and they could go to the vendor where they've purchased the styles and check/ask for updates/upgrades.
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  • NN635625448978432264UL
    Grant,

    it's not, that the styles have only a slightly different look now - there are many of theme, which are really unusable. Especially pictures with saturated blue sky are not usable with the many of the styles made by Phase One (i tried to show some examples here, but i could not find a possibility for uploading pictures). Seasonal Pack has most unusabel styles in this case. The sky is really destroyed with the styles, Colors completly wash out or you start to see harsh transitions and banding issues. Thats nothing, anyone would adjust as "a own taste". But Phase One sell these styles for 80 Euro (with tax), even now, where they know that they are not working with their new engine - no comment, or warning on their homepage, where you can buy these styles.

    When you pay 300 € for Phase One styles, i think it is an absolute minimum, that they take care with the compability of their styles with every enginge the develop up from Version 10.

    Yes, I created a Support case, but I'm waiting for their answer. To be clear: that'S not a feature, it is a really big issue. But I think we can expect an update of their styles, which is free for those who bought the styles - or am I wrong?

    Regards
    Chris
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  • Emile Gregoire
    This issue was already raised in another thread. The answer I got from support is found here. I too suggested they fix their styles.

    viewtopic.php?f=71&t=27133#p128258
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  • SFA
    [quote="Glogg" wrote:
    [quote="SFA" wrote:
    It is a rather interesting challenge to consider how changes can ever be made to the the underlying processing routines if the functionality of pre-sets and styles, bought or self generated, are thought to be sacrosanct.

    All the styles created with the specific engine version in mind do have that information in them (just look into the XML files that describe the styles). So, at the very minimum, the UI could (and should) provide this info to the end user, warning that the particular style was created for the older engine.

    At the moment though, there is zero indication in the UI and the users are left guessing if the style works properly or not (most users are probably not even aware that the style works incorrectly, not as expected).

    If the UI shows the warning or provides this info somehow to the user, then the users can make an educated decision, to use or not to use the style, and they will be aware of the issue and they could go to the vendor where they've purchased the styles and check/ask for updates/upgrades.


    I tend to agree but then we are in the early days of a new release and my guess it that the styles market, whether Phase or others supply them, had not really addressed the potential complexities about "what happens if there is a significant alteration to the processing engine." Almost certainly few will have given thought to the potential for C1 version dependent identification - it seems to be a rather ad-hoc marketplace.

    In fact in reality most of the styles seems to be offered as "starting points" for further adjustment. Undoubtedly some major change somewhere on the engine may have significant effect in some situations - I have updated a couple of quite vibrant examples from V8 to V11 with extremely visible effect in some areas of the image - but not all(?). Thiose images are untouched by attempts at reproducing specific styles.

    I would guess that this will be addressed when the independents have had time to work out what they need to adjust and for the Phase styles, once there is acceptance of the new standards established for the processing engine. That would then set the base for the next year or so (one assumes) and allow the styles to be tweaked accordingly and version labelled. Of course that implies that the market success of the style, Phase or independent, has been enough to justify doing the work. Or maybe just some advice about settings would be OK, given that people are likely changing the settings anyway and may well not use all of the styles they have obtained.

    Perhaps more than one approach would be required to satisfy the likely variety of needs?

    Grant
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  • Glogg
    [quote="Emile" wrote:
    This issue was already raised in another thread. The answer I got from support is found here. I too suggested they fix their styles.
    viewtopic.php?f=71&t=27133#p128258

    Emile, this is one part of the puzzle, the Color Editor changes. But there is another part, the Levels tools works very differently and produces very noticeably different tonal result.

    I've spent about two hours trying to reproduce the behavior of the old (ver. 10) levels tools in the new levels tool, and it is not easy, if possible at all. It looks like the old tool is more powerful and allows to make such adjustments that are not possible in the new tool, at least that's my conclusion after playing with them for a while.

    I wish we had more info about all of these changes, not just "the tools are improved", and not just the random bits of wisdom found here and there on the forums 😊

    To sum up though: Watch out for any styles that have Color Editor adjustments and the Levels adjustments, the results are not as intended by the authors.
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  • Emile Gregoire
    [quote="Glogg" wrote:
    [quote="Emile" wrote:
    This issue was already raised in another thread. The answer I got from support is found here. I too suggested they fix their styles.
    viewtopic.php?f=71&t=27133#p128258

    Emile, this is one part of the puzzle, the Color Editor changes. But there is another part, the Levels tools works very differently and produces very noticeably different tonal result.

    I've spent about two hours trying to reproduce the behavior of the old (ver. 10) levels tools in the new levels tool, and it is not easy, if possible at all. It looks like the old tool is more powerful and allows to make such adjustments that are not possible in the new tool, at least that's my conclusion after playing with them for a while.

    I wish we had more info about all of these changes, not just "the tools are improved", and not just the random bits of wisdom found here and there on the forums 😊

    To sum up though: Watch out for any styles that have Color Editor adjustments and the Levels adjustments, the results are not as intended by the authors.


    We're in complete agreement!

    I wish it would be easy to change the processing version. Now it's upgrading only and no downgrading, though you can set the preference to the v10 engine for new images. I hope they'll come out with an updated set of styles soon. One other provider has already updated their styles; in fact they introduced their updated sets on the day v11 launched.
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  • Glogg
    [quote="Emile" wrote:
    I wish it would be easy to change the processing version. Now it's upgrading only and no downgrading, though you can set the preference to the v10 engine for new images.

    Hehe, indeed! I had to remove my new photos from the catalog and re-add them again, just to get back from Engine 11 to Engine 10, this is not how it should be! 😊 I do wish we could switch back and forth freely.

    Especially in the world where different styles were created for different engines and since they behave differently!

    And for now, I am fully staying on Engine 10.
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  • alessandro cecconi
    [quote="SFA" wrote:
    [quote="Glogg" wrote:
    [quote="SFA" wrote:
    It is a rather interesting challenge to consider how changes can ever be made to the the underlying processing routines if the functionality of pre-sets and styles, bought or self generated, are thought to be sacrosanct.

    All the styles created with the specific engine version in mind do have that information in them (just look into the XML files that describe the styles). So, at the very minimum, the UI could (and should) provide this info to the end user, warning that the particular style was created for the older engine.

    At the moment though, there is zero indication in the UI and the users are left guessing if the style works properly or not (most users are probably not even aware that the style works incorrectly, not as expected).

    If the UI shows the warning or provides this info somehow to the user, then the users can make an educated decision, to use or not to use the style, and they will be aware of the issue and they could go to the vendor where they've purchased the styles and check/ask for updates/upgrades.


    I tend to agree but then we are in the early days of a new release and my guess it that the styles market, whether Phase or others supply them, had not really addressed the potential complexities about "what happens if there is a significant alteration to the processing engine." Almost certainly few will have given thought to the potential for C1 version dependent identification - it seems to be a rather ad-hoc marketplace.

    In fact in reality most of the styles seems to be offered as "starting points" for further adjustment. Undoubtedly some major change somewhere on the engine may have significant effect in some situations - I have updated a couple of quite vibrant examples from V8 to V11 with extremely visible effect in some areas of the image - but not all(?). Thiose images are untouched by attempts at reproducing specific styles.

    I would guess that this will be addressed when the independents have had time to work out what they need to adjust and for the Phase styles, once there is acceptance of the new standards established for the processing engine. That would then set the base for the next year or so (one assumes) and allow the styles to be tweaked accordingly and version labelled. Of course that implies that the market success of the style, Phase or independent, has been enough to justify doing the work. Or maybe just some advice about settings would be OK, given that people are likely changing the settings anyway and may well not use all of the styles they have obtained.

    Perhaps more than one approach would be required to satisfy the likely variety of needs?

    Grant


    Grant, what PO has done is wrong on so many levels.
    1) the didn't warn anyone about the change. Hoping we were all stupid and would not notice
    2) you can NOT go and change the way the engine alters styles without a way back. I and I am sure others have spent many hours perfecting a style, especially in B&W that are now lost. The new engine works in a different way and we will need to spend more time refining it. And what if C1 12 changes it again? then what? where dos it end?
    3) your point as " styles are a starting point so its not big deal' is mute they were a starting point but most of us have made changes and integrated them into our style and now that work is lost. My images, and I am sure others will be forever changed, it is a simple as that.
    So please, I understand your position in the organization and all but this "feature" is defenseless " They just screwed up, they knew they screwed up and in the usually non transparent way of relating to the customer they are now calling it a Feature.
    This is not going to go aways so soon
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  • alessandro cecconi
    Waiting for Christian to close this post in 3,2,1....
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  • Christian Gruner
    The change in Engine 11 is also for the better. You now have all the tools in the Color Balance tool available when using the B/W conversion tool. You also have a much more precise and predictable Color Editor in Engine 11, providing you with better selections and masks.
    When talking about styles, you will also see that a given style now works way more predictable across different cameras and vendors, compared to v10.

    Previous versions have also changed this way, in example, when the new contrast method was introduced in some versions ago. That is why we have the whole concept of version-specific Engines, to give users a way to maintain their old looks.
    I am sorry you don't find the Engine 11 improvements as improvements and understand your frustrations. However, You can always stay on Engine 10, while getting the performance- and stability-benefits + newly added features of CO 11, by setting the default engine to v10 in CO 11 from the preferences.
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  • Glogg
    Christian, thanks for the response!

    Do you happen to know what was changed in the Levels Tool? It looks like the new Levels tools is less powerful as compared to the old one (moving the middle slider below the histogram in the Levels Tool produces less changes as compared to the old levels tool, esp. when closer to the end-points, but why?). Maybe it's a bug, not feature in this case?

    And some of the styles use the middle slider moved all the way to the beginning, for example. Hence the very visible difference in those styles between v10 and v11 engines.
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  • NN635625448978432264UL
    Christian, the point here is: even with new pictures, which are unprocessed, many of the Phase One styles are unusable, because they produce harsh transitions and color bandings. If you show me, how i can upload images to these thread, i can show you examples. That is, what we would like to see to be adressed by the Phase One Team. In this context it seems useless to adress all the other advantages of the new engine, when we get the impression that Phase One don't take care of the disadvantages.

    Regards,
    Chris
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  • Christian Gruner
    [quote="NN635625448978432264UL" wrote:
    Christian, the point here is: even with new pictures, which are unprocessed, many of the Phase One styles are unusable, because they produce harsh transitions and color bandings. If you show me, how i can upload images to these thread, i can show you examples. That is, what we would like to see to be adressed by the Phase One Team. In this context it seems useless to adress all the other advantages of the new engine, when we get the impression that Phase One don't take care of the disadvantages.

    Regards,
    Chris


    As mentioned elsewhere on the forum, this has been noted and carried on.
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  • Christian Gruner
    [quote="Glogg" wrote:
    Christian, thanks for the response!

    Do you happen to know what was changed in the Levels Tool? It looks like the new Levels tools is less powerful as compared to the old one (moving the middle slider below the histogram in the Levels Tool produces less changes as compared to the old levels tool, esp. when closer to the end-points, but why?). Maybe it's a bug, not feature in this case?

    And some of the styles use the middle slider moved all the way to the beginning, for example. Hence the very visible difference in those styles between v10 and v11 engines.


    Also correct. The pipeline have had some steps moved to more optimal locations, which also give a different response of the Levels tool, when taken to extremes.
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  • Dave R
    [quote="NN635625448978432264UL" wrote:
    Christian, the point here is: even with new pictures, which are unprocessed, many of the Phase One styles are unusable, because they produce harsh transitions and color bandings. If you show me, how i can upload images to these thread, i can show you examples.

    Regards,
    Chris

    If you look in Post A Reply below Subject there is a row of buttons B i U etc, the 9th one along is labled "Img", click on this and you can insert an image. The only problem is that the image must be stored on-line somewhere and you need its URL, for instance the url of the image below is https://davidrosserwordpress.files.word ... ?w=2000&h=

    https://davidrosserwordpress.files.wordpress.com/2017/11/dsc_4248.jpg?w=2000&h=
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  • C3P iO
    Same problem here. Phase One, please get me right: I really like how new Levels work and I believe that the v11 engine is better than the v10.

    But... I also very much agree with the TS: you've just ruined our existing v10 styles and our established workflows. You cannot do this, it's just un-ethical. Backward compatibility is essential for photo editing and must be considered.

    Personally I am a huge fan of RNI All Films for C1 - those styles are very subtle and gorgeous and produce the results very close to what I get from my film scanner. And I can still use them in v11. The output is still beautiful however slightly different from v10. And this frustrates me a lot – the lack of respect Phase One paid to the precision and subtlety of others' work by providing no easy way to preserve it.

    Also on the surface the issue looks completely avoidable. Each C1 style file already contains the version of the engine it's been created with. It's a mystery to me why the style doesn't just switch the engine to v10 if it was created with v10. This is the way backward compatibility is implemented in Lightroom and it works nicely there.

    I hope Phase One will be able to address this very fundamental issue very soon. And personally I would stay on v10 till then.
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  • NN635625448978432264UL
    Thanks for the Information, how to upload Pictures. Since I haven't my pictures online, i could not post them here. But the support team did answer my support case today.

    They are working on the updates of their styles - but couldn't name a releas-date for that. "Work in Progress".

    Chris
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  • Emile Gregoire
    [quote="NN635625448978432264UL" wrote:
    Thanks for the Information, how to upload Pictures. Since I haven't my pictures online, i could not post them here. But the support team did answer my support case today.

    They are working on the updates of their styles - but couldn't name a releas-date for that. "Work in Progress".

    Chris


    Cool, good to know that the combined effort of all of us is working. And thanks to Christian too for his explanations on behalf of PhaseOne.
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  • VAD.
    RNI released today an update of ALL FILMS 4 - LITE for Capture One v11 backwards compatible to v10.
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  • Alexander Flemming
    All Capture One Styles Packs are now updated to work with the new engine in Capture One 11. They are also backwards compatible with Capture One 10.

    Technically, the Styles have been tweaked with all Basic Color Edits moved to the Advanced Color Editor, effectively enabling them to work on layers*. Slight tweaks to the visual change matching the Styles on the 10 engine have been made where applicable.

    If you have previously bought a Styles Pack, you can download the updated version free of charge directly from your Order History after logging in to My Pages on http://www.phaseone.com.

    *Black and White, Film Grain and Vignetting does not work on layers. Styles with any of these settings will either not be available on layers or partly applied. A notification will appear if so.
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