C1 with large number of files still unusable

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51 commentaires

  • CSP
    c11 is in general a rather unstable release. after initial tests with catalogs some time ago I decided against it. for selecting and managing large amounts of images I only use photomechanic, never failed me, very recommended !
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  • Bernd Ott
    I just received answer from Customer support regarding the issue with large imports. It only took half a day to let me know that Phase One is aware of the issue in V11. Obviously they knew about it since V10 and are aware that it got worse in v11.

    I expressed my annoyance and suggested to let customers now.

    IMHO: There should be a clear warning on the Phase One download page. Something like:

    Capture One V11 is not useable with large amounts of files at present! Don't purchase yet.

    Is there anything at this point that can be done to resolve this issue? So far no useful suggestions from support.
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  • Franz J Wenzel
    I agree with you in many aspects!

    IMHO, Capture1 is an excellent RAW converter (if not the best) and with its session module a wonderful functioning tethering tool. Phase One should just pull the whole catalog/DAM aspect out of Capture1 and dedicate this part of workflow to an updated, multifunctional Media Pro release which to me still is the best DAM available for the Apple/Mac computing environment.
    I am well aware it will not happen like that which is very unfortunate for both pieces of such potentially excellent software...
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  • CSP
    [quote="BerndInBerlin" wrote:
    I just received answer from Customer support regarding the issue with large imports. It only took half a day to let me know that Phase One is aware of the issue in V11. Obviously they knew about it since V10 and are aware that it got worse in v11.

    I expressed my annoyance and suggested to let customers now.

    IMHO: There should be a clear warning on the Phase One download page. Something like:

    Capture One V11 is not useable with large amounts of files at present! Don't purchase yet.

    Is there anything at this point that can be done to resolve this issue? So far no useful suggestions from support.


    wow, seems when they cannot blame apple for bugs they are rather silent.
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  • CSP
    [quote="CF" wrote:
    I agree with you in many aspects!

    IMHO, Capture1 is an excellent RAW converter (if not the best) and with its session module a wonderful functioning tethering tool. Phase One should just pull the whole catalog/DAM aspect out of Capture1 and dedicate this part of workflow to an updated, multifunctional Media Pro release which to me still is the best DAM available for the Apple/Mac computing environment.
    I am well aware it will not happen like that which is very unfortunate for both pieces of such potentially excellent software...



    I very much doubt that c1 is the best raw converter. for sony raw I think it is ok but I´m more and more tired to work against what c1 calls their signature look. considering a a7r3 can capture almost 15 stops it always surprises me how c1 turns the wonderful files to resample the bad look of a fuji velvia developed in an off E6 process. but tethering works really very well.
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  • Bernd Ott
    Agreed. I haven't gotten a response via customer support either.

    I really think C1 produces the best quality and makes great use of the hardware acceleration (at least compared to Adobes products) but DAM has been and still is very much under par in comparison to their competitor. I really feel that in this state the DAM part of the program hasn't progressed from a beta state.
    Imagine that: Building a new catalogue from 15000 files on a hard disk is taking more than 24hrs (and still counting: AT present the progress bar shows another 23hrs to go)

    As Phase One is keeping quiet on this topic I find it rather important to let other users know.

    If anybody at Phase is reading this: Have you considered calling the upgrade to V11 back and refunding the upgrade costs until the program ist ready?
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  • Bernd Ott
    Another day has passed and nothing from Phase One. A bit disappointed.

    Whilst I have been waiting for prints to finish I took the liberty and imported the same folder structure (2 level hierarchy) with the roughly 20000 images into the latest version of Adobe Lightroom.
    It was done within 45(!!!) minutes. A process that has taken the latest Capture One more than 16 hrs. During this time LR was still reactive and I could do other tasks with the computer.
    Same computer, same RAID0 - and no crashes.

    I hate to say it: But at this point it is back to the Adobe competition for the commercial work and Capture I will use for the slow fun projects.
    Now all I have to do is convince my digital operator or find a new one.

    Dear Phase One. That these issues with large numbers of files have not been fixed after all this time - shame on you.
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  • ericnepean
    I don't know if this is the problem above, but it may be. Or it may be an aggravating factor.

    One thing that can cause very long reaction times with larger numbers of images is the the Filter Tool-Unique Metadata problem.

    There is a simple user workaround, PhaseOne is aware of this but has not yet fixed this.

    When all the following are true:
    • Filter Tool is active, i.e. is visible on an active tool tab, which is by default is the often used "Library Tool" tab
    • there are a very large number of images in the current catalog (e.g. "All Images")
    • most of these images has some unique data in a Metadata field (e.g. a unique title for each image or some date&time in one of the IPSC data fields)
    Then, when Filter Tool recomputes all the metadata groupings, it takes a very long time, because the number of operations to compute the statistics for Filter Tool grows as the square of the number of images.

    This recomputation occurs at every potential change point (e.g. image added /removed, mouse click, key click)

    This occurs not just for Metadata fields currently visible in the Filter Tool, but for all Metadata fields a user can change (i.e. all the metadata fields that Filter Tool could access)

    If there is some Metatdata Field where the number of unique values is about the same as the number of images, or you just want check if this is a problem for you, a simple user work around is to remove the Filter Tool from the Library Tool tab. The echange will be most strongly seen in the All Images collection with the Library Tool tab active (which is often the default configuration) Perhaps not use Filter Tool (use the search feature instead) or put it on a tab used only with small collections.

    I wonder (but have not tested) if this effect also occurs if the Filter Tool is used to define a Smart Album.
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  • Bernd Ott
    Hello Eric,

    thank you so much for your detailed instructions.

    Yes, filters are active. Filters are actually always active as I have a three monitor set up in my office and the library and filter tab are set aside amongst others as floating tools.

    But in all honesty: Filters are essential to me. As mentioned, we are talking about a catalogue with roughly 20k images and ratings and color labels are the only way to stay on top or have only the keepers visible.

    I really appreciate your input and for offering a possible workaround. And if I every feel I have too much time on my hand I will try to re-create this catalogue with the filters deactivated.

    But bottom line is: Phase One needs to fix it. At this point the DAM part of Capture One is a joke. And has been for a while. The software simply can not be recommended for work with large amounts of files. We all keep paying every year for upgrades and all sort of fancy new tools whilst major flaws are being ignored.
    At this point I can't see myself upgrading C1 ever again until this issue has been resolved.
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  • ericnepean
    [quote="BerndInBerlin" wrote:
    Hello Eric,

    thank you so much for your detailed instructions.

    Yes, filters are active. Filters are actually always active as I have a three monitor set up in my office and the library and filter tab are set aside amongst others as floating tools.

    But in all honesty: Filters are essential to me. As mentioned, we are talking about a catalogue with roughly 20k images and ratings and color labels are the only way to stay on top or have only the keepers visible.

    I agree, I have close to that number, organising and searching is key.

    I really appreciate your input and for offering a possible workaround. And if I every feel I have too much time on my hand I will try to re-create this catalogue with the filters deactivated.

    Its not complicated. The only difference between Advanced search tools and Filters tool is that Filters tool shows all possible values, and how many images against each value, however only images with the attribute can be slected, whereas Advanced search shows no preview values, but it's filtering capability can involve more complex conditions (e.g. does not contain ..)

    Its frustrating, because for the metadata fields with very many unique values, there is very little use in showing the user a very long list of values and radio buttons. And so the time is wasted preparing information the user will never want.

    But bottom line is: Phase One needs to fix it. At this point the DAM part of Capture One is a joke. And has been for a while. The software simply can not be recommended for work with large amounts of files. We all keep paying every year for upgrades and all sort of fancy new tools whilst major flaws are being ignored.
    At this point I can't see myself upgrading C1 ever again until this issue has been resolved.

    This is the second release where I have almost not upgraded, and left C1. I reflect that CaptureOnes annual upgrade fee is about the same as Adobes Lightroom annual subscription fee.

    Worse for me than the filters tool issue is the fact that for all JPEG images from all Panasonic cameras, the lens ID is not shown. According to Capture One, in my main Catalog I have 600 images from Panasonic Micro Four Thirds cameras which did not have a lens installed. However, most of them are in sharp focus and all report an aperture setting. 🙄
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  • CSP
    [quote="BerndInBerlin" wrote:

    But bottom line is: Phase One needs to fix it. At this point the DAM part of Capture One is a joke. And has been for a while. The software simply can not be recommended for work with large amounts of files. We all keep paying every year for upgrades and all sort of fancy new tools whilst major flaws are being ignored.
    At this point I can't see myself upgrading C1 ever again until this issue has been resolved.


    your problem is a minority problem and like other flaws phase one does not like to acknowledge it will be ignored. the main reason for me to stick with c1 is tethered shooting nothing else. affinity is developing a DAM and when they can reach the same level as with photo c1 will loose a lot of customers, maybe this makes them change and open to listen to their base outside the fanboy circle.
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  • Robert Farhi
    [quote="BerndInBerlin" wrote:

    Are there any other users with similar experiences and problems? Is Phase One finally addressing these issues? Given some of the problems Capture One 11 had from the start I get the feeling that I am used as a beta tester by Phase One.


    Hi Bernd,

    I have a referenced catalog of about 19k pictures. I was upset with the time requested by Capture One to find a picture using the library filter tool with version 10 and previous ones, but when I upgraded to version 11, I have been very happy with the huge improvement done with the "DAM". It takes now about 3 seconds to display my "All images" and less than 1 second to find pictures compliant with my request (keyword, description, location, etc...). Very close to Lightroom capabilities.
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  • photo by FA
    [quote="tenmangu81" wrote:
    [quote="BerndInBerlin" wrote:

    Are there any other users with similar experiences and problems? Is Phase One finally addressing these issues? Given some of the problems Capture One 11 had from the start I get the feeling that I am used as a beta tester by Phase One.


    Hi Bernd,

    I have a referenced catalog of about 19k pictures. I was upset with the time requested by Capture One to find a picture using the library filter tool with version 10 and previous ones, but when I upgraded to version 11, I have been very happy with the huge improvement done with the "DAM". It takes now about 3 seconds to display my "All images" and less than 1 second to find pictures compliant with my request (keyword, description, location, etc...). Very close to Lightroom capabilities.


    I agree with the above. My catalogue has more than 22000 photos in it and I don't experience such dramatic waiting times. It loads from scratch in about 15 seconds and browsing within the albums doesn't expose any issue. I use v11 CO, my catalogue is on internal flash SSD and referenced to a USB3 Samsung T3 drive.
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  • Bernd Ott
    Great to hear that people are happy with the performance of Capture One. And I agreee, that some functions are now much snappier than they were before.
    Now go ahead and try to import a few thousand files into a new catalogue.
    I have done a lot of testing recently since my livelihood depends on this kind of apps and I can only suggest to everybody to do the same,
    Try out the very latest LR Classic and Capture One. Stop the time it takes to import a few hundred images. including building previews.
    The competitor is now simply faster. Much faster actually.
    And the problems that I experienced have to be bugs. Bugs that simply shouldn't be in a professional software.
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  • Emile Gregoire
    Agreed, the catalog function still needs a lot of work. I just broke off importing 19K images because after 12 hours and 15K done it was importing them at a rate of 1 per half a minute. I'll try in shorter batches but it shouldn't be problematic throwing less than 20K images at it. In LR I used to have 50K without a problem.
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  • Robert Farhi
    Yesterday, I realized that a subfolder(about 600 images) was missing in my catalog, and I imported it from my external HDD, leaving it at the same place (current location, just importing in the catalog). It took about 10 seconds.
    When I upgraded to version 11, I observed that "excluding duplicates" when importing increased very significantly the import time.
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  • Emile Gregoire
    Thanks, good suggestion. Alas, I found out I have 'exclude duplicates' deselected.

    Somewhere along the whole process of importing 19K files, C1 just bogged down. I wasn't even talking building previews - just the simple act of importing 12 to 24 megapixel files from a state of the art internal SSD was too much. Haven't found the time to do it in batches, more so because I dread spending the time only to find out it bogs down regardless. Working on a 2017 MacBook Pro with all the latest software updates.
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  • Bernd Ott
    [quote="tenmangu81" wrote:
    Yesterday, I realized that a subfolder(about 600 images) was missing in my catalog, and I imported it from my external HDD, leaving it at the same place (current location, just importing in the catalog). It took about 10 seconds.
    When I upgraded to version 11, I observed that "excluding duplicates" when importing increased very significantly the import time.


    I noticed that as well. Unfortunately the problem with the extremely slow import of large amounts of files remains even when you switch this option off. Another bug btw. Shouldn't cause such delays.

    I just once again compared the catalogue in question in Capture One and in the latest Lightroom.

    Everything, and I mean everything at this point is snappier in Adobes Software.
    I switched a few years ago from LR to C1 for exactly the same reason but right now Capture One has dropped the ball.

    I have a an old system in my office but quite high spec. For example my Mac 5.1 has a GTX 980ti Graphics card. I use three monitors, one of them a 4k Eizo. Opening one file in the viewer and changing it to 100% will bring up the beachball for multiple seconds. Panning around inside the picture - the same. So many actions bring up the beachball. A problem I noticed already in v10.

    Sorry to say. Capture One has some serious problems or let's call them bugs. And I will write now to customer service and see if I can somehow downgrade my catalogues to v10 and get my money back for the latest upgrade as I really think this is not ready for the professional market.
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  • Bernd Ott
    [quote="Emile" wrote:
    Thanks, good suggestion. Alas, I found out I have 'exclude duplicates' deselected.

    Somewhere along the whole process of importing 19K files, C1 just bogged down. I wasn't even talking building previews - just the simple act of importing 12 to 24 megapixel files from a state of the art internal SSD was too much. Haven't found the time to do it in batches, more so because I dread spending the time only to find out it bogs down regardless. Working on a 2017 MacBook Pro with all the latest software updates.



    Pretty much the same as my experience. Thanks for sharing yours.
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  • Emile Gregoire
    [quote="BerndInBerlin" wrote:
    [quote="Emile" wrote:
    Thanks, good suggestion. Alas, I found out I have 'exclude duplicates' deselected.

    Somewhere along the whole process of importing 19K files, C1 just bogged down. I wasn't even talking building previews - just the simple act of importing 12 to 24 megapixel files from a state of the art internal SSD was too much. Haven't found the time to do it in batches, more so because I dread spending the time only to find out it bogs down regardless. Working on a 2017 MacBook Pro with all the latest software updates.



    Pretty much the same as my experience. Thanks for sharing yours.


    I installed and fired up Lightroom last night, just to see if it could tempt me back in. Took about 30 minutes to decide that no matter how much I need to work around C1's issues, I'm sticking with it. Funny, as I used LR as my main converter from v1 all the way up to the end of 2015. Did see a few things I still really liked though: a functioning catalog, radial masking and auto-upright (for non-Phase One bodies). Y'all listening, Phase One? 😄
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  • John Doe
    [quote="Emile" wrote:
    Y'all listening, Phase One? 😄

    If you want to be sure they're listening, send them a feature request (link in my signature).
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  • Bernd Ott
    [quote="Emile" wrote:

    I installed and fired up Lightroom last night, just to see if it could tempt me back in. Took about 30 minutes to decide that no matter how much I need to work around C1's issues, I'm sticking with it. Funny, as I used LR as my main converter from v1 all the way up to the end of 2015. Did see a few things I still really liked though: a functioning catalog, radial masking and auto-upright (for non-Phase One bodies). Y'all listening, Phase One? 😄


    I have done pretty much the same as you the last few days when I had a moment. Playing around with the same set of images in both programs.
    I have come to a different result though. LR is so much more reliable and responsive at this point.
    As I almost never shoot tethered I won't miss much after the switch as the major adjustments will be done in Photoshop anyway.

    The fact remains: Capture 1 is (and has been since v10) way too buggy to work with large amounts of files. No nice features bring back the hours of sleep me or my digital operator have lost because Phase One can not fix obvious problems. So LR it is from now on for commercial work and keeping a lovely but expensive and buggy piece of software around to access older catalogues.

    I actually have been in touch with customer service. Trying to get a refund on my upgrade fee for v11.
    No surprise here. Once it has been activated you won't see your money back. Well, thanks for making me a paying beta tester.

    I really wish someone from Phase One would enter this conversation. Or could it be that they are aware of the shortcomings of Capture 1 and rather stay stumm???
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  • Robert Farhi
    [quote="BerndInBerlin" wrote:

    As I almost never shoot tethered I won't miss much after the switch as the major adjustments will be done in Photoshop anyway.


    If most of your adjustments are done in Photoshop, it seems to me that ACR (and LR or Bridge as catalog) would be enough !!
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  • Emile Gregoire
    I was just wondering... I've always used C1 with 'sessions' when I used to do corporate events for a living - one session per event; worked perfectly. I've chosen another path in photography now due to circumstances, and am trying to monetize the street photography I've done over the past 15 years. I thought a catalog with the 19K images I mentioned above would be the way to go -it isn't at this point in C1's development stage- but would it be a viable path to use them in a single session? They're divided into many different folders for all the countries I've visited or lived in, though I would want to have albums containing images of all folders, hence the thought of a single session. I've not tried this before; maybe some of you have. Any thoughts would be welcome.
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  • SFA
    [quote="Emile" wrote:
    I was just wondering... I've always used C1 with 'sessions' when I used to do corporate events for a living - one session per event; worked perfectly. I've chosen another path in photography now due to circumstances, and am trying to monetize the street photography I've done over the past 15 years. I thought a catalog with the 19K images I mentioned above would be the way to go -it isn't at this point in C1's development stage- but would it be a viable path to use them in a single session? They're divided into many different folders for all the countries I've visited or lived in, though I would want to have albums containing images of all folders, hence the thought of a single session. I've not tried this before; maybe some of you have. Any thoughts would be welcome.


    It would be possible to test the idea without eliminating the original sessions.

    If your existing session go back over many C1 versions (which I would guess is likely) there may be number of additional files created for the new session (.cos Settings files, etc., in their own version related folders) and I would guess that all of the previews would be regenerated. However as far as I know that would not disrupt the availability of the original session should you choose not to continue with the large session or prefer to work with the original smaller sessions for further development.

    Assuming that any further work in any session will always be undertaken with the latest version of C1 (and that is probably NOT an absolute requirement if you wish to leave history as it is) then any Session editing, from the original session or the collective session, would result in changes to the latest .cos file (etc.) in the version related folder - which would in effect be shared between the sessions that use the contained files. I cannot think of any particular reason why that would be a problem but I guess it is just possible that some aspect of that might not entirely fit with you intended usage so it may need thinking through in more detail.

    I have no idea about performance with that number of files. I think my largest session involves around 4000 images but more typically many are about half of that.

    To create the "Master" session I would simply set up a new session and navigate to the various image folders for the earlier sessions and make them favourites. No "Import" would be required.

    I could foresee some possible concerns about folder (and file) naming but those matters would not preclude the concept. They might, however, provide some complications in use.

    Adding the folders as you expand the session would provide an opportunity to assess performance step by step. If you don't like the results just delete the session database file at the operating system level (subject to specific circumstances about the use of older versions there may or may not be additional cache and preview folders to tidy up BUT they would not, as far as I know, interfere with a return to previous states other than leaving a little extra disk space utilised.


    Grant
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  • NNN635158767546269381
    [quote="BerndInBerlin" wrote:

    Capture One V11 is not useable with large amounts of files at present! Don't purchase yet.


    I am currently using C1 with an 100k pictures catalogue. It works so far.

    However, I do agree they should improve the DAM.

    Regards
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  • Emile Gregoire
    Grant, thanks for the elaborate answer! I'll let you know how I fare, though that might take a while.
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  • Emile Gregoire
    Just as a FYI, I've loaded 15K images spread out over roughly 15 different folders into a session and marked them as 'favorite' so I can access them and am getting basically the same performance as when using a catalog. I'm not getting the performance problems as Bernd was mentioning when adjusting images -didn't get them when I loaded a catalog with the same number of images either- but apart from that everything is somewhat sluggish with quite a few spinning beachballs. Lightroom really flies with that amount of photos. Getting rid of the 'filters' tool helps but I'd really like to use it and should be able to. I really hope PhaseOne finds a good database expert to help them on this - it's not abracadabra. It would be great if we only knew this is a priority - so far I'm lacking that faith as database problems within C1 aren't exactly new...
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  • SFA
    [quote="Emile" wrote:
    Just as a FYI, I've loaded 15K images spread out over roughly 15 different folders into a session and marked them as 'favorite' so I can access them and am getting basically the same performance as when using a catalog. I'm not getting the performance problems as Bernd was mentioning when adjusting images -didn't get them when I loaded a catalog with the same number of images either- but apart from that everything is somewhat sluggish with quite a few spinning beachballs. Lightroom really flies with that amount of photos. Getting rid of the 'filters' tool helps but I'd really like to use it and should be able to. I really hope PhaseOne finds a good database expert to help them on this - it's not abracadabra. It would be great if we only knew this is a priority - so far I'm lacking that faith as database problems within C1 aren't exactly new...


    Emile,

    I have no idea how LR works these days but some years back in the early days and working with jpg files it looked to me like it was dealing with what one might call "superthumbnails" whilst editing and letting processes finish quietly behind the scenes.

    Edit RAW files I used to use another application that, much like C1, used a "calculate from bottom up" approach for almost every change. The effect of that was for it to appear to take a while to process anything - a few seconds perhaps - and then deliver the full results all at the end of the process.

    LR put something on screen almost instantly. However it actually took just as long to finish the edits between each step before you could move on the then next stage when you studied closely what was happening on screen. So the perception was that it was, back then, much more responsive. But really it was not.

    I think they may have different core design points in their approach to perceived speed.

    If I open a session C1 will check that the entire session is available and that what it is about to offer is optimised (or not) as I have specified for the system I am using. I never used XMP file Sync but that can add to work.

    C1 will also try to load relevant data into memory, taking into account the last state of the session (or catalog) and trying to pre-load images either side of what was last know from the session it is was previously open.

    I'm in WIndows so my experience seems a little different to Mac where some people have always had system that in their perception are fast even if not anywhere near a current specification and others find their system slow (in their perception of slow which across a range of people can be rather wide) even when apparently maxed out. This appears also to be likely for Windows based systems but does not seem to be discussed as much.

    When first opening a session it can take a while as it checks potentially several thousand files but one checked and loaded browsing and editing is pretty quick - even at the moment when my internal drives are both well below 10% free capacity. Not ideal.

    In general having multiple session open does not make much difference unless multiple apps are open as well in which case system memory can be well occupied.

    Most of my RAW files are relatively small by some of the latest standards but when I have tried much larger files from time to time I don't recall discovering anything that kept reminding me I was working with a much bigger file.

    But of course these are all mainly subjective comments and cannot readily take into account performance factors influenced by hardware builds or the cumulative effects of repeated software updates and so on.

    It might be interesting to see what happens to editing speeds in catalogue situations if all the images are referenced and off-line.


    HTH.


    Grant.
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  • Bernd Ott
    Very interesting insights here from other people.
    I conclude from my and other experiences: Great RAW converter, unreliable DAM functions.
    There seem to be memory leak problems up to this day. I just managed to crash my entire computer by just trying to export 5 files from an older and rather large catalogue. Something I have not managed to do with any other app on my mac lately.

    Please please Phase One - if anybody reads this: Stop adding fancy new features and fix the ones that you have already. I am no fan of the subscription model of Adobe and really got to like C1 over time but it is just not reliable enough for my work at present.
    And make sure you have new releases properly tested before you release them into the wild. Some of us use this software for work and our livelihood depends on it.
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