Capture One Always overlays grain

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40 commentaires

  • Ian Wilson
    Are you sure it isn't noise? Is it affected by the noise reduction settings?

    Ian
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  • Fenjen
    [quote="Ian3" wrote:
    Are you sure it isn't noise? Is it affected by the noise reduction settings?

    Ian


    Yes I'm sure, it isn't affected by any exposure setting or noise reduction. It's a constant overlay of noise.
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  • Ian Wilson
    [quote="Fenjen" wrote:
    [quote="Ian3" wrote:
    Are you sure it isn't noise? Is it affected by the noise reduction settings?

    Ian


    Yes I'm sure, it isn't affected by any exposure setting or noise reduction. It's a constant overlay of noise.

    In that case there isn't accidentally some style involving grain being applied at import, is there?

    Ian
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  • Fenjen
    [quote="Ian3" wrote:
    [quote="Fenjen" wrote:
    [quote="Ian3" wrote:
    Are you sure it isn't noise? Is it affected by the noise reduction settings?

    Ian


    Yes I'm sure, it isn't affected by any exposure setting or noise reduction. It's a constant overlay of noise.

    In that case there isn't accidentally some style involving grain being applied at import, is there?

    Ian


    I don't have a preset that does something like that. Also I obviously made sure the intensity slider of the grain tool was set to zero.
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  • SFA
    Fenjen,

    Any chance of posting a sample file to a file sharing service somewhere so people could take a look?

    I think it may have reached the point when people need to see what is happening and look at things in C1 themselves before they are likely to have any deeper inspiration.

    Grant
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  • Fenjen
    [quote="SFA" wrote:
    Fenjen,

    Any chance of posting a sample file to a file sharing service somewhere so people could take a look?

    I think it may have reached the point when people need to see what is happening and look at things in C1 themselves before they are likely to have any deeper inspiration.

    Grant


    Here is a link to the noise pattern. It's slight but this causes the dark parts to average to grey and not be completely black.
    https://ibb.co/d1AocG
    This is with the shadow level to 255 and exposure -4. It didn't really matter to what I set them because because it didn't affect the pattern.
    Here it is amplified so it's easier to see: https://ibb.co/eLuLrb
    There obviously should be no structure at all.
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  • SFA
    To see anything but black on my notebook screen for the first one I have to turn the brightness right up and then use an off-centreline viewing angle to make any patterning appear.

    The second one is a little more obvious but again mainly when using an off-centre viewing angle in conjunction with a very bright screen.

    I'd really like to try to see what is going on with an original file.

    In theory you could just shoot a dark frame and whatever it is should be visible. Looks like regular highish ISO sensor electronics noise to me but absent a RAW file (or indeed the camera used!) it's difficult to be sure.



    Grant
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  • C-M-B
    Could it be that the layer raises the dark/black values and thereby intruduces noise? Or that too much sharpening is applied on the new layer and that amplifies existing noise levels?
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  • Fenjen
    It really isn't noise caused by the camera as exposure settings don't affect it, it is applied after exposure and level settings. If it were noise, you could crush it by using the levels tool. As I said this is impossible and it doesn't even change a bit when changing those settings. You also really don't need any file from me as it is independent of the file, just try one of your own. Of course it will not show very well with a dim screen, but it is visible on my screen without doing anything special like you mentioned.

    To C-M-B, it is independent of all settings. Sharpening was turned off (even though it didn't change how the noise looked). As I said I turned the exposure to -4 and the black level to 255, there was no detail at al left in the image. All noise from my camera was crushed into oblivion, as that changed with the exposure. This doesn't as mentioned, it really is just applied after the fact.

    I know it's not that visible but it has a visible inpact on my overall image (as I said it causes dark parts to average to grey) and it really just seems like a dumb and unnecessary feature.
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  • HansB
    [quote="SFA" wrote:
    ...
    I'd really like to try to see what is going on with an original file.
    ...

    Just joining in on Grant's offer: could you share one of your problematic image files, as EIP and with adjustments? I'm sure there are a number of users around here willing to have a look and to help, including me.


    Regards,
    Hans
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  • Benjamin Liddle
    Additionally, Tech Support is interested as well. Could you please create a case via the link in my sig?
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  • Fenjen
    [quote="HansB" wrote:
    [quote="SFA" wrote:
    ...
    I'd really like to try to see what is going on with an original file.
    ...

    Just joining in on Grant's offer: could you share one of your problematic image files, as EIP and with adjustments? I'm sure there are a number of users around here willing to have a look and to help, including me.


    Regards,
    Hans


    As I said there are no problematic image files, all of them do it. I tried NEF files (Nikon 1) ORF (Olympus E-M10 II) and RAF (Fuji X-T1) and all of them show the same. I have made a video showing the effect (ignore the ugly photo, it was a test shot). I will explain what I'm doing here:
    First I show the actual noise from the image and that it changes with the exposure setting. Then when I have the exposure low enough there is some residual noise that does not get any less bright. Then at around 45 seconds I show that this noise is unaffected by the luminance slider. Then at around 58 seconds I try to show that the grain is exactly the grain that gets amplified with the impact slider of the film grain, altough this is hard too see due to youtube's compression. I have then prepared two jpgs. DSCF2958 and DSCF2958 1. The first is an export of the raf with exposure -4 and black level 255 and the second is an export of that jpg with dark level again 255 (so that all noise is crushed). You can see clearly when I switch between the two that the first is grey, while the second image is completely black. The second image has no residual noise left, so the noise isn't applied on jpg files.

    Here's the video:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuIqQuWhCkc
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  • John Doe
    You should file a bug report.
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  • SFA
    For some reason the link to the video just gives me a "This Video is not available" response.


    Grant
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  • Fenjen
    [quote="SFA" wrote:
    For some reason the link to the video just gives me a "This Video is not available" response.


    Grant


    Yeah sorry apparently it was set to private, while it should’ve been unlisted. You can watch the video now. I will contact tech support soon.
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  • C-M-B
    I was able to reproduce the same issue - the reason is the colour profile.

    Using ROMM RGB (ISO 22028-2:2013) I get the exact same noise pattern and I'm unable to achieve true black. It gets down to 2 1 2 2.


    Which colour profile are/were you using?

    edit: funnily enough when using this profile and setting sharpening to 0, it looks like a uniform overlay of small dots - and when you scroll there are huge dots in the pre-rendered parts that disappear and form the small, pixel-sized dots.

    I am not sure whether this is intended...
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  • C-M-B
    Could it be that Capture One fails to interpret the black level of certain color profiles and therefore "artificially" raises the actual black levels?

    I can't even show the issue with a screen capture because on a screen capture (with the Nvidia Experience thing) ALL profiles deliver no true blacks.

    My suspicion: the hardware acceleration for rendering the images is the culprit. I would like to verify that suspicion but I'm actually unable to turn off hardware acceleration. It still uses my graphics card (according to the task manager) even after turning HA off in the preferences menu.
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  • Class A
    Have you tried activating "Proof" mode or exporting to a file?

    It would be interesting to determine whether this is a previewing issue only.
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  • C-M-B
    Proof mode doesn't change anything - the exported file does not have those strange dots but there's no true black either...

    Could you try to replicate it?

    http://www.color.org/chardata/rgb/rommrgb.xalter

    This is where I got my ROMM RGB.icc from

    edit: after some digging this seems to be a modified ProPhoto profile for printers - I would really love hear from Fenjen whether he too used a special profile or something common like Adobe RGB.
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  • Robert Whetton
    Looks like digital noise caused by shooting at ISO6400? - ISO100 gives the same noise, but not as defined, i'm guessing C1 looks at the ISO of the file and replicates it in the darkened areas? I've not played with noise reduction. Just my theory.
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  • Fenjen
    Sorry I've been a bit preoccupied lately. I will try to reply soon!
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  • Gustavo Ferlizi
    Duuude!!!

    I can't believe I didn't see this before!

    Default windows sRGB does the same.
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  • C-M-B
    @Fenjen still busy I assume 😂
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  • Fenjen
    [quote="C-M-B" wrote:
    Proof mode doesn't change anything - the exported file does not have those strange dots but there's no true black either...

    Could you try to replicate it?

    http://www.color.org/chardata/rgb/rommrgb.xalter

    This is where I got my ROMM RGB.icc from

    edit: after some digging this seems to be a modified ProPhoto profile for printers - I would really love hear from Fenjen whether he too used a special profile or something common like Adobe RGB.


    I use the normal SRGB profile. I tried it with different profiles though and proofing off but nothing changed as you mentioned too.
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  • Fenjen
    [quote="Bobtographer" wrote:
    Looks like digital noise caused by shooting at ISO6400? - ISO100 gives the same noise, but not as defined, i'm guessing C1 looks at the ISO of the file and replicates it in the darkened areas? I've not played with noise reduction. Just my theory.


    This is probably because the noise intensity setting in Capture one automatically defaults to 25 for iso 6400 images. If you turn it to zero slowly you will notice the noise getting less but even at 0 it is still overplayed in purely black parts of an image. With it set to zero I see just the same behavior as with any iso.
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  • Fenjen
    [quote="gusferlizi" wrote:
    Duuude!!!

    I can't believe I didn't see this before!

    Default windows sRGB does the same.


    Yeah it’s weird right? I started noticing it in high iso images after I noticed I could never get the blacks black. I assumed it to be caused by the actual noise of camera at first so it never struck me as weird until I started looking into it.
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  • Fenjen
    [quote="C-M-B" wrote:
    @Fenjen still busy I assume 😂


    Sorry I have some exams and stuff soon so photography has to take a backseat for a while ☹️
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  • C-M-B
    Fenjen, thanks for replying!

    Did you try it without the hardware acceleration?

    And another question that may sound a bit weird: how is your display connected? HDMI? DisplayPort? DVI?

    As this also occurs with every profile when I make a screen capture I think it may be related to certain hardware/output conditions as well.
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  • Fenjen
    [quote="C-M-B" wrote:
    Fenjen, thanks for replying!

    Did you try it without the hardware acceleration?

    And another question that may sound a bit weird: how is your display connected? HDMI? DisplayPort? DVI?

    As this also occurs with every profile when I make a screen capture I think it may be related to certain hardware/output conditions as well.


    Yeah I tried it without on your request but it didn't change anything. I'm using HDMI for my display.

    I don't believe those things can impact this though as the grain is just baked into the jpeg, things like hardware acceleration or cables don't change the algorithm with which the jpeg is created.
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  • Fenjen
    I have contacted tech support. I hope they fix this and add an option to turn the film grain intensity to 0 as default for any iso.
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