iMac 5k 2017 lag...

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48 commentaires

  • Ian Wilson
    I don't know the answer, but if my memory is correct there have been other threads on here about the 5k iMac. Have you had a search to see whether anyone else has had the same issue and has come up with an answer?

    Ian
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  • Bojan Bojovic
    Thanks, yes I did, but there is no solution to this.
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  • SFA
    [quote="alfaholic" wrote:
    Thanks, yes I did, but there is no solution to this.


    Why do you want a 5k screen for image editing?

    Do you understand what an NDA is?
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  • Bojan Bojovic
    [quote="SFA" wrote:
    Why do you want a 5k screen for image editing?


    I do not need 5K for image editing, I just happen to have 5K display on a relatively new computer which I would like to use for image editing as before with my 10 years old Hackintosh running flawlessly at 1080 resolution.
    Also, it is not about editing in 5K, it runs scaled to 2560 x 1440 by default, so text is sharper, user interface is sharper while the photo looks the same because it works on pixel by pixel basis.

    But then if used in Low Resolution mode everything works fairly well, so I am not clear wether this is some hardware limit because of that gimmicky 5K display is paired with relatively old and average hardware (?), or it is a lack of some software optimization.
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  • John Doe
    IIRC some 5K iMacs are too underpowered in terms of GPU to run Capture One smoothly. What's your GPU?
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  • cdc
    I recall one of the Capture One guys saying on the forum some time back that even the best video card options for the 5k iMac is not good enough and that to run 5k with Capture One you'd need an iMac pro (paraphrasing, don't quote me on this).
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  • Bojan Bojovic
    This iMac has Radeon RX580 with 8GB of RAM.

    Capture One is not the only software with this problem, even some DAWs have the same problem with lag and latency in HIRes, while at the same time others do not which brings me the idea of optimization, or the lack of optimization in this case.
    For example Logic Pro does not have this problem, while Pro Tools, and Reaper has, so I need to run them in Low Resolution mode to get good performance. And the only thing they need to do is to show static GUI on the screen, nothing too demanding for GPU.

    As for image processing software, Lightroom must run in Low Resolution mode in order to have good performance, then it works very fast and without any lag, but Capture One has it even with Low Resolution turned on.
    If it needs more than 8GB RAM for GPU and faster than this relatively fast and new RX580, then I believe it asks too much just for running the GUI.

    I know Apple hardware these days is not very competitive, it is already 2 generation behind with their processors, but at the same time I run 100 mbps 4K videos in DaVinci Resolve with color correction without any problems.
    Yes, this is maybe comparing apples to oranges, but it is very hard for me ti believe that Capture One needs $10 000 iMac Pro just for the interface to run smoothly. Either there is something I am doing wrong, or this software is not very efficient.
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  • ericnepean
    Your immediate problem is not enough RAM. For Capture One and probably some of your other applications, 8GB is not enough.

    I have observed that with Capture One up to 16GB is used; I have 24GB on mine (started with 8 and immediately added 16).

    If the computer doesn't have enough RAM, then it starts saving less used data in RAM on the main drive, until it is needed again, and then it brings it back (but then it has to make room by moving something else to the main drive). This is called a swap file mechanism. The lag that you observe is what happens as a result.

    You didn't mention size and type of main drive, but if for example you had a spinning drive or a small fusion drive or an SSD drive with not much room left this would aggravate this affect.

    I have observed that with Macs my friends bring to me for assistance, a simple way to speed them up is to add more RAM.

    Considering your situation I would upgrade to 32GB of RAM.
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  • Bojan Bojovic
    I have 32 GB of RAM, 8GB RAM is for graphic card. The system is on SSD with 80GB used, and 40 GB free space.
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  • ericnepean
    My Capture One 11 and Capture One 12 is running OK on a not too expensive iMac. It may take 20-30 seconds to open my catalog with 20,000 images, and it may take 2-3 seconds (perhaps less) for an image to become absolutely clear in the viewer, once it is selected.

    I have a late 2015 27" iMac with 5K display, Second Monitor, 4GHz i7, 24GB RAM, Radeon M390 with 2GB VRAM.

    The internal drive is a 1 TB Fusion drive (this drive has a very small SSD).

    I have put my Capture One files on an external SSD, attached by USB 3.0. About 50% full.

    I think your system should be faster than mine. For Capture One, it isn't. I don't think your HW is the bottleneck.

    Filter Tool can sometimes cause a lot of delay, if the are many thousands of images, and if you have some Metadata fields with "difficult" metadata. Perhaps try removing Filter Tool from the Library Tab, and see if that makes the difference. If it does, then we can discuss a workaround.

    Another question - are you running any antivirus perhaps?
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  • Bojan Bojovic
    [quote="Eric Nepean" wrote:
    My Capture One 11 and Capture One 12 is running OK...


    Thanks. I do not have anitivirus, never had those on Mac OS. My system is streamlined for DAW so there is so little going on in the background.

    I do not use Capture One nor Lightroom for catalogue workflow, but for session only so there is no more than 500 photos in worst case scenarios, but most of the time 10 to 20 photos loaded at a time.

    I can create some video to show the (lack of) speed I am talking about.
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  • Bojan Bojovic
    Here is the video how it looks:

    https://youtu.be/OStqvU8FtuE

    This is Low Resolution mode, however with Hi Res it is even slower, much slower.

    EDIT:

    Well, after some testing I figured out that preview size makes editing slower. Someone said somewhere that preview size should be the largest possible so the computer runs faster, just the reality is totally the opposite.
    Now I use 1920 as preview size and everything works... just well. It is not super fast, but the lag and latency is somewhat manageable.
    I have Windows 10 on the same machine and it runs smoother and faster 🤓 but not by much.
    Also I tested Nikon NEF and Canon CR2 files, they all act the same as Fuji RAF files.

    Still, it is not as fast as Lightroom in Low Res mode, which is very interesting because many people say totally the opposite, we Fuji users should use Capture One - PERIOD. I am not so religious about my software, so my idea was to move away from Lightroom because I do not like how it sharpens Fuji files, however after some serious testing and using Iridient X-Transformer with Lightroom I concluded that both programs work good, and those differences are negligible most of the time. Like always, it is human factor after all...
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  • NN636938084653053921UL
    While this iMac is not officially upgradable after purchase, it can actually be done. I upgraded the same model before Christmas so that it had an internal SSD for storage and a lot more RAM.
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  • NNN636986327812141855
    Why does it feel so slow?

    Your iMac has a 1TB 5400rpm SATA Hard Drive and this is what’s causing the bottleneck. Your mid-2010 iMac would have had a 7200rpm Hard Drive. To fix this you really need to address this bottleneck.

    The 'easiest' solution

    Since your iMac has two Thunderbolt 3 (USB-C) ports that support speeds up to 40 Gbps (via Thunderbolt) and 10 Gbps (via USB 3.1 Gen 2), the easiest solution is to use an external SSD that’s connected via one of these ports and to install macOS on that and use that drive as your main boot volume. However, you need to ensure that:

    it’s definitely an external SSD (and not just a hard drive)
    it supports either Thunderbolt or USB-C (i.e. USB 3.1) as its interface
    Both of the above are critical if you’re wanting to improve speed. However, you’ll probably find Thunderbolt models are too expensive, so opt for USB-C / USB 3.1. Do not get confused by USB 3 - this is not the same as USB 3.1. And remember, it needs to connect to one of the two Thunderbolt ports (not one of the USB ports).
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  • Bojan Bojovic
    [quote="NNN636986327812141855" wrote:
    Why does it feel so slow?

    Your iMac has a 1TB 5400rpm SATA Hard Drive and this is what’s causing the bottleneck. Your mid-2010 iMac would have had a 7200rpm Hard Drive. To fix this you really need to address this bottleneck.


    Sorry but this is not true. This is 7200rpm drive, but even that has nothing to do with sluggish performance because all my images on system drive which is PCIe SSD. Even that has nothing to do with the performance because the image is loaded in RAM and there is no swapping happening at all.

    The problem is still here, changing white balance or exposure takes few seconds to show on the image so I use Capture one i Low Resolution. Not a solution at all, but nothing else works.
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  • Carlos Leon

    Hi, 

    I see that many of you are also having the same performance problems from Capture One on an iMac 5K. As the iOS keeps updating as well as the versions of Capture One, I still have not found a clear and satisfying solution for this on any of the feeds.

    I would just like to bring this to the table once again and see if any one has any answers, specially from Capture One support. It is hard to believe that all the Adobe Creative Suite works well and nicely on this iMac but not any versions of Capture One.

    For information I have the following system:

    iMac 5K Retina 27" (late 2014)
    3,5 GHz Intel Core i5 - 4 Cores
    24GB 1600 MHz DDR3 RAM
    AMD Radeon R9 M290X 2GB

    Capture One Pro 11.0


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  • ericnepean

    I have the following  5K iMac. I find  CaptureOne v21 is somewhat faster than V20. Although I had issues with  the performance in v10 and v11 I find  the performance of V21 quite acceptable.

    iMac 5K Retina 27" (late 2015)
    4 GHz Intel Core i7 4 Cores
    24GB 1867 MHz DDR3 RAM
    AMD Radeon R9 M390 2 GB

    Monitor 2: BenQ SW2700 (2560x1440)

    Internal Drive: 1TB Fusion

    CaptureOne Image storage and Catalog storage: External SSDs

     

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  • Carlos Leon

    Thanks ericnepean, 

    So you really see a difference with the new CaptureOne versions versus the older ones on the iMac 5K?
    Have you compared the performance of v21 to the same in other computers? 

    My frustration actually got much bigger once I got use to working on a Mac Pro or a MacBook Pro with the same CaptureOne, versus working on my iMac 5K, which always had this lag for any actions...

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  • ericnepean

    This Mac is my most powerful machine, I haven't installed CaptureOne v21 on the laptops or my 2012 mini.

    Are you saying that CaptureOne version 11 works faster on your Mac Pro and MacBook Pro??

    My recollection is an older version of Capture One (v10??) worked slower on my MacBook Air.

    One thing to beware of is that in v8-v12 the performance of Capture One is dependent on catalog size, and on the filter tool, as follows:

    I had 1000's images where I had put the original file name and import date into two of the IPTC metadata fields. This resulted in each image having a unique value in those Metadata fields. It took me a long time to discover that when filter tool was on the active tool tab, and the selected user collections had many 1000's of images with this kind of metadata, Capture one performance would slow right down.

    I could fix the problem by choosing a tool tab without Filter Tool, or by removingFilter Tool from the active Tool tab, or reducing the number of images, or by clearing the metadata fields.

    One technical reason is that filter tool, after almost every user action, regenerates its database for every metadata field, even the ones that it doesn't display on its tool window. For each Metadata field it has a sorted list of every unique values, and a count of each value. This requires sorting, comparing and counting every unique value of Metadata for each Metadata field. If you have some metadata that is unique for each of many thousands of images, that process is very tedious, especially if they are mostly the same length (as dates and filenames tend to be). For 10,000 images, a simple sort algorithm requires 50 million comparisons, the most optimal algorithm would require only 118,000 comparisons. Even 118000 is lot. The number of comparsons grows like crazy for large number of images. For 1000 images the number of comparisons is between 500,000 and 8524. CaptureOne handles 1000 images in a collection very easily.

    If you are comparing Capture One performance between two computere it is essntial to use the same catalog.

     

     

     

     

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  • Carlos Leon

    Yes, that's exactly what I am saying.

    CaptureOne v9, v10, v11 works with higher and faster performance on my MacBook Pro 13" from late 2009 than on my iMac 5K from late 2014.

    I have already been in touch with the Capture One support service, with very small success in finding an actual solution, but they did refer to the problem of the 5K resolution on such a big display, and the power that is required to bring pictures to this scale.

    I still do not understand it because, as I said, Adobe Suite works flawlessly on the same Mac.

    I haven't only tried the same Capture One sessions on different computers but the lag is comparable to all sessions and versions, when working on different machines.

    The goal for me is not so much or not only to understand the problem, but to find a way for this lag to be reduced to the minimum.

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  • Bojan Bojovic

    Lightroom is still the fastest. It still has some latency however it is manageable and usually it is not more than 50 to 70 milliseconds, while Capture One has more latency it is also choppy so when you move the slider it makes few steps before it settles down to a desired position.

    I set the preview image size to 2048px so it is somewhat workable, but not sure what is happening under the hood and why CO is still slower and so choppy.

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  • Carlos Leon

    Bojan, do you mean on an iMac 5K as well?

    Have you tried the CaptureOne V20 or V21 on it?

    I have had great experiences using CaptureOne in other machines, MacBook and Mac Pro. No problem. When it works flawlessly is for me undoubtedly the best software.

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  • Bojan Bojovic

    Yes, I have iMac 5K. This is actually my topic, just I have 2019 iMac now because the 2017 one had some smudges under the screen glass so it was less expensive to sell it and buy the new one then to replace the screen. Apple...

    I do not have experience with using Capture One on any other machine except 2017, 2019 5K iMacs, also with my old Hackintosh which has 1080 display. Hackintosh works flawlessly, however both 5K iMacs are choppy with Capture One.

    I do not believe I have noticed any difference between different versions of the software.

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  • Carlos Leon

    I see, sorry about that. 
    Then for me what is clear is that this choppiness on Capture One only happens on 5K iMacs, and what's most serious is that Capture One is not giving any clear solution for it... or should we contact Apple?

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  • Bojan Bojovic

    I do not think it has anything to do with Apple as Lightroom works relatively fast. I believe it is something with Capture One and how it renders the edits on the screen under the hood.

    If you set your Capture One window to be very small then it works very fast, for example if it is not larger than 500x500 pixels on your display. But then if you set it to full screen it gets choppy again. The problem is the number of pixels the computer needs to process, both processor and graphics card, together with this screen and connection between them. Maybe Capture One does not use GPU as much as Adobe, or vice versa.

    One more thing I noticed is Capture One does not show the full resolution while moving sliders, so it is their trick to make everything faster. If I remember well Lightroom does not do that but it is still faster. Very strange as Premiere Pro is the worst when it comes to speed and efficiency. 

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  • Carlos Leon

    Yes, I agree, I have tried that too and works better...

    However, what is the way to get in touch with and get solutions from the Capture One support team? We are all discussing on their website and yet we are not given solutions.

    Did you ever hear anything from them?

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  • Bojan Bojovic

    I believe you can submit a request on their website if you want someone to contact you about this.

    I stoped thinking about it as it works relatively normally, yes slower than Lightroom but faster than any other RAW editor on the market, both commercial and free. This information helped me to stop thinking about it as all of them are choppy and very, very slow so I used to how Capture One works. Lightroom is good, but I do not like what it does to Fuji files so I use Capture One.

    You can always set Capture One to work in Low Res mode, it will be very fast. Which brings another idea, maybe it has problems with scaling. I had similar problems with Reaper, it was soooo slow on 5K iMac until they issued an update, after that everything works very, very fast. What was interesting, on the same iMac and windows it worked great.

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  • Carlos Leon

    Great then, I will submit a request again...

    Hopefully they will fix this with the new versions. You are totally right, it is a problem with scaling to make it up to the 5K resolution. This is what I was told by Capture One the first time I asked, but they blamed it on my computer not being powerful enough, which didn't make much sense with my actual set up.

    It is interesting what you last said, it is then clearly a problem between the Capture One and iOS versions only on the 5K iMac.

    Thanks for all that Bojan!

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  • Bojan Bojovic

    It is just my logic, I know very little about this so I may be wrong. Let us know here if something happens, I would like to know if they find a solution to this.

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  • Carlos Leon

    Will do! :)

    I will submit a request again and I will also do a trial for CaptureOne V21.

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