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A real disappointment in so many ways!

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30 commentaires

  • BOB22
    Generally speaking I think I can get used to learning the new system, but disappointment is a great word overall. As far as I can tell, the only things that were added were the highlights and shadow tool. Okay maybe a couple other things that Phase One seems proud of, but nothing much that I would use. Otherwise all we have here is a new interface and new ways of doing the same old thing. Personally I was fine with how things were done in 3.7, so having to relearn how things are now done is a bit of a pain. To me this isn't the stuff of a major new upgrade. The improved speed is nice . . what seems to be improvements in the output is nice . . so let's call this 3.8.

    And where are the green tags that tell you which images have already been processed?
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  • NN8930012
    [quote="updeinva" wrote:
    . . so let's call this 3.8.

    No let's not, because if we did, then we would have all the features that are missing from v4 that everyone had been asking for to be retained from v3!!!
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  • Lensman
    In the normal course of software development, newer versions enhance and improve earlier versions. Not so this time. A professional grade tool (V 3.7) has devolved into something woefully inadequate for professional use (V 4). Version 4 appears to have been purposely designed to appeal to the first-time DSLR owner, who wants to dabble in RAW (and who has no concept of, or need for efficient workflow).

    When I think of all the time I wasted posting suggestions and feedback on this forum during the beta period......

    It was just smoke and mirrors, folks. I'll pass on this "upgrade".


    Lensman
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  • marcel11
    I can only support what is well said above; I will stay with 3.7.7 for now, hoping that once a time developers will continue to work for a real improvement connected with what the betas testers communicated.
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  • John2311
    But I thought this was just an LE upgrade not a replacement for the PRO version. Compared to 3.7.7 LE I think the new version stacks up well, it just needs to have the Cache issue tidied up.
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  • Robert8
    [quote="strawman" wrote:
    But I thought this was just an LE upgrade not a replacement for the PRO version. Compared to 3.7.7 LE I think the new version stacks up well, it just needs to have the Cache issue tidied up.


    As an LE users I can confidently say this version is a LIGHT version compared to LE. It’s truly a huge disappointment.

    Rob
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  • BOB22
    Basically they changed the drapes, repainted the walls, and moved some of the furniture. Like I've mentioned before, I can probably get used to the new look and maybe the new way things are done. But there really are not any new things added that make this a major upgrade; and there is nothing that has been changed that has made me go "wow, this makes so much more sense than the way it was before". Maybe they're saving everything for the Pro version; but in 3.7 the differences between the LE and the PRO were not all that extreme, so it makes me wonder if the PRO version will be all that different than this.

    Missing:

    1. The tags (check marks) on the thumbs that tell you which images have been processed;

    2. Processing status that is visible no matter which panel you have open;

    3. The icon and text preference still does not work;

    4. Setting default preference for sharpening;

    5. Batch applying of adjustments still seems awkward, especially compared to 3.7.
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  • dave211
    [quote="updeinva" wrote:


    Missing:

    4. Setting default preference for sharpening;




    Setting the default sharpening is easy. you just click the small arrow above the sharpening sliders and a box pops up to let you set default setting plus there are some pre-sets as well. there are even two to give you a V3 look. I cant see how that is called difficult.

    For me the biggest plus over v3 pro is you can drag and drop from the desktop or to the desktop, move files around different folders all from within V4. file management seemed a real hassle in v3.

    Has anyone tried the apply adjustment tool yet? i think that's a great idea.

    dave.
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  • swampy101
    [quote="dave_bass5" wrote:
    [quote="updeinva" wrote:


    Missing:

    4. Setting default preference for sharpening;




    Setting the default sharpening is easy. you just click the small arrow above the sharpening sliders and a box pops up to let you set default setting plus there are some pre-sets as well. there are even two to give you a V3 look. I cant see how that is called difficult.



    Then what do you do? I set a preset a long time ago and it's a "real time saver"!! On every image, I still have to click on that arrow and select that preset. I don't see anywhere to set a preset as default.
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  • NN8930012
    [quote="swampy101" wrote:

    Then what do you do? I set a preset a long time ago and it's a "real time saver"!! On every image, I still have to click on that arrow and select that preset. I don't see anywhere to set a preset as default.

    On the sharpening arrow, just select 'Save as defaults'. This will only apply of course to any images that have not been previously edited in C1.
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  • dave211
    Seems like a lot of people are complaining without giving it time.
    Im sure "save as default" isnt too hard to understand.

    Dave.
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  • swampy101
    [quote="dave_bass5" wrote:
    Seems like a lot of people are complaining without giving it time.
    Im sure "save as default" isnt too hard to understand.

    Dave.

    Must be a new feature in the release. Which, I'm giving the release "time" before I download it. I am still looking at beta 2.
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  • BOB22
    Thanks for pointing out the default settings for sharpening. I didn't see it in the global preferences and did not notice it in the tiny pulldown screen in the sharpening panel. Still not quite sure it is working right. When you pick one of the presets, sometimes there is a "reset defaults" option, which I would assume means resetting it back to factory defaults; but it doesn't do that, and sometimes that reset option isn't there. Again, not sure if it's me or a bug, or why sometimes it's there and other times it isn't. Guess I'll have to read the pdf manual (there's a novel idea).
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  • dave211
    [quote="swampy101" wrote:
    [quote="dave_bass5" wrote:
    Seems like a lot of people are complaining without giving it time.
    Im sure "save as default" isnt too hard to understand.

    Dave.

    Must be a new feature in the release. Which, I'm giving the release "time" before I download it. I am still looking at beta 2.


    V4 b2 is not the same and you should really not be commenting on whats not in a program if you dont have it IMHO.
    Its a free download so why arent you using it? b2 will stop working soon anyway.

    Dave.
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  • shewhorn
    [quote="dave_bass5" wrote:
    Seems like a lot of people are complaining without giving it time.
    Im sure "save as default" isnt too hard to understand.

    Dave.


    Dave, this software is not a plant. You can't fertilize it, water it, and give it light and magically expect features which you previously had but no longer do to magically appear. Doesn't work that way. Time won't help.

    Cheers, Joe
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  • dave211
    [quote="shewhorn" wrote:
    [quote="dave_bass5" wrote:
    Seems like a lot of people are complaining without giving it time.
    Im sure "save as default" isnt too hard to understand.

    Dave.


    Dave, this software is not a plant. You can't fertilize it, water it, and give it light and magically expect features which you previously had but no longer do to magically appear. Doesn't work that way. Time won't help.

    Cheers, Joe


    Sorry, not sure how that answer relates to the quote?

    you can clik on icons and features do seem to appear. not magic though.

    Dave.
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  • craig12
    I wonder how many of the complainers here have bothered to read the pretty well written manual. Most of my initial concerns are answered by it, and there are lots of new things I didn't realize but will undoubtedly use... like being able to assign a copyright at import AND directly back up files to my spare drive at the same time. Awesome.

    C1 Windows is now much like how it was on the Mac in 3.7 - a good thing, the windows version was like the forgotten stepchild...

    Some things are moved around, or changed in how they work. C'est la vie. After reading the manual, "I Get It". The changes seem to be for good reasons and make sense.

    Some people just can't be bothered to learn new things and violently reject changes to their old forces of habit. Oh well.

    I look forward to using it.
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  • shewhorn
    [quote="dave_bass5" wrote:
    Sorry, not sure how that answer relates to the quote?


    Sorry, I thought is was fairly obvious. A lot of people are complaining because features that used to be in version 3 (which they PAID for) have been removed in version 4. Giving it time isn't going to make a difference.

    Cheers, Joe
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  • D2xs30
    [quote="craig_washburn" wrote:
    I wonder how many of the complainers here have bothered to read the pretty well written manual.


    Craig, where do you find the manual? I have looked for one in the Documentation area, but alas, there wasn't one there. Would love to see it.

    On the other hand, many of my complaints will not be solved by reading any manual. A manual is not going to solve corporate arrogance. Nor will it answer why so "simple, easy, and effective" is replaced by "illogical, convulted, and inane". As just one example, to move the thumbnail browser in C1 LE, you just hit F8. Now you have to hit Shft+Ctrl+B. Programmer *. They don't mind that kinf of * Censored - Read and Follow the Rules * , in fact they enjoy it, gives them some kind of thrill I guess. I don't give a hoot about what programmers and developers like, I care about what I want, a simple, easy to use, and effective program. Many of the new features are wonderful, but it's quite easy to see PO didn't actually want any real feedback with the betas because they chose to ignore most of what we repeatedly asked for. I'm not interested in the slick ad copy PO spends so much time on; I only wish they would spend that time and money producing a program that actually gives me what I want and need - a powerful, easy to use, and capable program, without the "slick and sleeze".
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  • shewhorn
    [quote="D2xs30"] wrote:
    As just one example, to move the thumbnail browser in C2, you just hit F8. Now you have to hit Shft+Ctrl+B. Programmer BS. /quote]

    Don't blame the software engineers... they have NOTHING to do with that. It's the marketing department that designs the functional UI, engineering just implements it.

    Cheers, Joe
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  • NN8930012
    [quote="D2xs30" wrote:

    Craig, where do you find the manual? I have looked for one in the Documentation area, but alas, there wasn't one there. Would love to see it.

    Under the help menu, 'Capture One Help'. That loads the user manual. It doesn't help any of our problems with the software though!
    (Incidentally, hitting the F1 key is supposed to bring up the guide also, but it doesn't work for me!)
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  • dave211
    [quote="shewhorn" wrote:
    [quote="dave_bass5" wrote:
    Sorry, not sure how that answer relates to the quote?


    Sorry, I thought is was fairly obvious. A lot of people are complaining because features that used to be in version 3 (which they PAID for) have been removed in version 4. Giving it time isn't going to make a difference.

    Cheers, Joe


    Im really not as thick as i think you believe i am.
    Im sure you didnt think i meant give the program time and features will appear. I meant (and to me this is common sense) that you may well get used to it over time and find features that weren't obvious (like the sharpening pre-sets) by using it for 5mins. But maybe you did.
    So far we already have someone who cant find how to set sharpening defaults, someone who cant find the manual (F1 is standard for help in most Windows programs and it works for me on two different PC's), someone who is using a beta which is different.

    I can understand people not likening this new version though.

    As for the configurable tool bar, its showing you can do this in the manual but i cant figure out how. Maybe i need a MAC.

    Dave.
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  • NN8930012
    [quote="dave_bass5" wrote:
    As for the configurable tool bar, its showing you can do this in the manual but i cant figure out how. Maybe i need a MAC.

    You do need a Mac.
    Another irritation that most people will not have noticed yet!
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  • Lensman
    [quote="dave_bass5" wrote:
    Seems like a lot of people are complaining without giving it time.
    Im sure "save as default" isnt too hard to understand.

    Dave.


    Dave, when you suggest "giving it time", you're really saying "learn a new workflow". Changing cameras, software, hardware, etc. is costly in terms of lost productivity, i.e. the time required to test, then implement those changes.

    I recently bought a new camera body. It can take many days, if not weeks, to thoroughly test new tools before one is able to confidently incorporate them into his work. In the case of the new body, I found out that with one specific lens, a Canon 28-70 2.8L, the new body would not properly focus in one-shot mode, though it was dependable in AI Servo mode. I have six Canon lenses. Each lens had to tested on the new body at different distances to test targets, in each of the focus modes, under different levels of illumination, etc. It took altogether about two weeks to thoroughly vet this new body before I put it into service for the first time. When you earn your living with photography, you don't have the option of screwing up.

    The same is true of software. I spent considerable time vetting C1 v3, learning the keyboard shortcuts, learning its strengths and weaknesses, etc. Ultimately, I developed a workflow with v3 that was very efficient, very high quality. In testing the two beta versions of v4, which itself was time-consuming, I realized it was flawed from the get go. It is inherently less efficient for me than v3, and no amount of time is going to change that. What angers most professional C1 users is the fact that Phase One did not build on the functional advantages of v3, but instead wiped the slate clean and created software that, even after the learning curve, is less productive.

    In the digital age, the hidden cost to the professional photographer is the rate of change, the rate of obsolescence. If I have to buy a new camera because my current camera has become obsolete, I do it because the advantages of owning the newer technology outweigh the cost of acquiring it. With v4, the cost is not just the software, but learning a new workflow and accepting the loss of functionality over v3. Is there a compelling advantage to justify such a high cost? No. The cost far exceeds the benefit for me.

    Lensman
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  • D2xs30
    [quote="imacken" wrote:
    [quote="D2xs30" wrote:

    Craig, where do you find the manual? I have looked for one in the Documentation area, but alas, there wasn't one there. Would love to see it.

    Under the help menu, 'Capture One Help'. That loads the user manual. It doesn't help any of our problems with the software though!
    (Incidentally, hitting the F1 key is supposed to bring up the guide also, but it doesn't work for me!)


    I was afraid you were going to say that. Unfortunately, the "Capture One Help" doesn't work for me, it completely locks up my system. Thanks again PO!!!!!! I guess it would be too easy for them to just put a pdf file on the forum or under the Documentation section on the net!! (Here's your new software, have fun figuring it out on your own!)
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  • Robert8
    [quote="shewhorn" wrote:
    [quote="D2xs30" wrote:
    As just one example, to move the thumbnail browser in C2, you just hit F8. Now you have to hit Shft+Ctrl+B. Programmer BS. /quote]

    Don't blame the software engineers... they have NOTHING to do with that. It's the marketing department that designs the functional UI, engineering just implements it.

    Cheers, Joe


    NEVER in any software development company that I've worked for did the Marketing Department design any part of the software. That was my job as head engineer, project lead, PM or VP of development. I either did the design or managed the design team which was a part of the engineering group.

    The marketing department may have been tapped for distributing surveys and gathering feed back; maybe assemble a focus group or two, but it was the development group who digested the information gathered then designed and implemented feature sets.

    Rob
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  • NN8930012
    [quote="D2xs30" wrote:
    I was afraid you were going to say that. Unfortunately, the "Capture One Help" doesn't work for me, it completely locks up my system. Thanks again PO!!!!!! I guess it would be too easy for them to just put a pdf file on the forum or under the Documentation section on the net!! (Here's your new software, have fun figuring it out on your own!) Jerks!!!


    The User Guide pdf is installed with the software. Just look in 'Program Files/Phase One/Capture One 4'.
    This is one we can't blame on PO!
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  • Allan2
    I'll never use the sorting feature in this program, I'll never do any high volume proofing in C4, but if I'm going to make a 30 inch print to hang in my own house, I've seen nothing that can touch C4. The files output the way they preview and the file quality is amazing. C4 Shadow slider is better than LR fill light ... Period.

    I just loaded a few hundred Raws I origionally worked in Lite Room with Lots of wide apertures. It's hard to judge what's Tack sharp and what's not in light Room. In C4 I can judge right away and the file output matches.

    I agree with almost all of the criticisms mentioned here. P1 really shot them selves in the foot by not making it easier to apply and keep ICC profiles associated with images. I will not use this program for the majority of the work I do, but if I need to make one killer big print, nothing I've seen can touch C4.

    That being said, Phase One has a long way to go to catch up to Lite Rooms functionality, but at least they haven't lost their edge in output quality.

    I've been over C4 beating Lite Room at making 500 4x6s since the beta came out. Disappointed? Maybe a little, but I like Lite Room. I've found it to be a really amazing program if it's running on a very strong Computer. C4 is great at some of the things (detail, Sharpness) that LR is not. When the Pro version of C4 comes out with a color editor it will selectively alter colors better than Lite Room as well.

    C4 fills a niche I need filled better than 3.x. 3.x can be so slow to load and get going that its annoying to use for just a few images and the release version of C4 (not the beta) is way more functional... Brightness .. I mean come on.
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  • shewhorn
    [quote="dave_bass5" wrote:
    Im really not as thick as i think you believe i am.
    Im sure you didnt think i meant give the program time and features will appear. I meant (and to me this is common sense) that you may well get used to it over time and find features that weren't obvious (like the sharpening pre-sets) by using it for 5mins. But maybe you did.


    I have tried many different packages. One thing that set C1 ahead of the rest in terms of efficiency was the keyboard command equivalents. I don't need to try the new version out to know that the absence of this feature will have a very negative impact on the efficiency of my workflow. There are other benefits as well. Mousing around on thousands of images a week hurts. I've tried trackballs, various mice and tablets, none of them equal keybaord control. It requires the least amount of movement and is the most comfortable for me. NOT have is a very bad thing for me in terms of preventing Repetitive Stress Injuries.

    That leaves me with Bibble. I'd love to give Bibble a chance however I can't get Bibble to run long enough without crashing to actually test it so that kind of presents a bit of a problem.

    Cheers, Joe
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  • MikeArst
    > I wonder how many of the complainers here have bothered to read the pretty well written manual.

    On two sites now you have "dissed" people who are critical of (or angry about) v.4, dismissing them as bellyachers or complainers. This is simply "spin"; it handily ignores concerns people have about the program. If you don't have those same concerns, fine. But do you not grasp that there are real-world workflow and UI problems other people are experiencing and that -- will wonders never cease? -- these are legitimate concerns to them? What do you hope to accomplish with the dismissive language?

    Instead, how about applying your own favorable experience with the program and suggesting how they might work around the problems they're having with it?

    I disagree about the docs. I've worked in software documentation for quite a few years now, on teams that produce huge amounts of documentation each year, including in PDF format. The v4 documentation is adequate. It is not what I'd call "good".

    It has a TOC at the start of the body text but no TOC information in the Bookmarks panel -- not a good way to handle a table of contents for a long online-help file in PDF format. The docs flat-out fail to note that (apparently by design) the customization feature is not available in the Windows version -- a major omission. Certain mouse controls are left undocumented; certain keyboard controls are listed that don't work at all; at least one keyboard shortcut is documented incorrectly (within the body text, not the summary of keyboard controls). There is a lot that could be in this help-file that isn't present.

    The news ain't all bad. The section on a recommended workflow for adjusting exposure/brightness/gamma/etc. is definitely useful. There's good advice about sharpening. What they've provided is certainly better than the documentation supplied with some software -- and that aside, it isn't "good" documentation.

    And in no way would reading the documentation end-to-end help users deal with features that are missing, or changed to the point of making them less useful than they once were.

    > Some things are moved around, or changed in how they work. C'est la vie.

    That is another example, IMO, of a simplistic dismissal of other people's legitimate concerns. "Moved around" and "changed in how they work" grossly oversimplify the changes causing trouble for users who no longer have the more efficient workflow they had with version 3.7. If you disagree, consider providing useful suggestions rather than simply dismissing what they're talking about.
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