Recipe Proofing and ICC Profiles
I have questions about using recipe proofing.
Background:
I created a calendar for my family for Christmas. Several images printed dark and flat (e.g. no vibrancy). Upon examination, I discovered that the ICC profile for my export recipe had inadvertently switched to “embed camera profile†as opposed to the dedicated profile for the selected paper as provided by the printing company. Since the images looked fine upon final check, I failed to notice that I should have seen a change when selecting recipe proofing.
With the correct ICC profile, the images looked like the printed ones: namely, dark and flat. (BTW, I had none of these problems last year, while using the correct ICC profile.)
Okay. With that, I understand my error, part of which comes from having my screen too bright. But, since the printed image matches the screen image when I use recipe proofing, I can confirm that my screen calibration is close enough.
So, on to my real questions about adjusting to recipe proofing.
1. Am I really condemned to adjusting each time I choose a different paper? (I assume so.)
2. Any tips for creating a basic adjustment (curve as preset or style) for a specific paper / ICC profile?
3. Is this normal behavior? (The attached example does have an extreme blue color to it.)
I am flummoxed by this problem, because last year’s calendar (same printing company, White Wall; same paper choice) showed no flatness and no discrepancy between screen and print. Also, the darkness is easy to fix, but the flatness is hard to impossible.
Please see an example of the problem in three versions: . I created the images by selecting the ICC profiles “AdobeRGB1998â€, “White Wall ICC Fuji crystal silk†and “Saal Digital - CMYK-Profile†(a different printing company). JPEG export with 100% Quality, but small size.
I most appreciate any advice.
Cheers
James
BTW: I am working with Capture One 11 on Mac with Sierra (10.12.6.)
Background:
I created a calendar for my family for Christmas. Several images printed dark and flat (e.g. no vibrancy). Upon examination, I discovered that the ICC profile for my export recipe had inadvertently switched to “embed camera profile†as opposed to the dedicated profile for the selected paper as provided by the printing company. Since the images looked fine upon final check, I failed to notice that I should have seen a change when selecting recipe proofing.
With the correct ICC profile, the images looked like the printed ones: namely, dark and flat. (BTW, I had none of these problems last year, while using the correct ICC profile.)
Okay. With that, I understand my error, part of which comes from having my screen too bright. But, since the printed image matches the screen image when I use recipe proofing, I can confirm that my screen calibration is close enough.
So, on to my real questions about adjusting to recipe proofing.
1. Am I really condemned to adjusting each time I choose a different paper? (I assume so.)
2. Any tips for creating a basic adjustment (curve as preset or style) for a specific paper / ICC profile?
3. Is this normal behavior? (The attached example does have an extreme blue color to it.)
I am flummoxed by this problem, because last year’s calendar (same printing company, White Wall; same paper choice) showed no flatness and no discrepancy between screen and print. Also, the darkness is easy to fix, but the flatness is hard to impossible.
Please see an example of the problem in three versions: . I created the images by selecting the ICC profiles “AdobeRGB1998â€, “White Wall ICC Fuji crystal silk†and “Saal Digital - CMYK-Profile†(a different printing company). JPEG export with 100% Quality, but small size.
I most appreciate any advice.
Cheers
James
BTW: I am working with Capture One 11 on Mac with Sierra (10.12.6.)
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I'm not sure what's causing your problem.
Just for understanding: Saal has a number of proof profiles. Like White Wall, they have their target in the name. For Saal, it varies from "SaalDigital_Acrylglas.icc" to"SaalDigital_SoftProof_Fuji.icc". What is that profile you are using? I'm missing the target in the name.
Generally, make sure to send your image file in sRGB, Adobe RGB (1998) or ProPhoto RGB color spaces to Saal. The paper proof profiles are only for simulating the paper print on screen, not for printing.
I didn't try myself, but maybe you can create a layer containing the necessary paper fixing adjustments to your adjusted variant and save that layer's adjustment as a style for a new layer on the next image to print.
Regards,
Hans0 -
Thanks, Hans. That helps my understanding. I reviewed the instructions at White Wall. As at Saal Digital, the ICC profiles are intended as softproof profiles. I had forgotten this. As I have not printed any color prints this year, I have not any color issues. BTW: The Saal Digital example is “SaalDigital_Softproof_Fujiâ€.
So, WW or Saal are expecting to receive AdobeRGB or sRGB images that I have processed using the ICC profile to simulate the appearance on paper. Correct?
But, doesn’t this mean I need to change the ICC profile in the recipe to AbobeRGB before exporting? That seems, however, to defeat the purpose of recipes, which I thought was to create specific printing/export settings that could be selected as needed (without further changes).
An alternative explanation is that WW or Saal “understand†the ICC profile and print accordingly? In other words, regardless of my export settings, the image is going to look the same on a specific paper.
With regard to the flatness of my images, another explanation occurred to me. Perhaps I am simply reaching the limits of the printer’s color space; i.e. the dynamic blue of the image I see on my AdobeRGB monitor just cannot be printed on the Fuji paper. For BW, I often use a Hahnemühle Rag White paper. When I select this ICC profile, the image looks even flatter, as if I had put a layer of gray over the whole image.
One thing is true, I have difficulty in getting to the dynamic blue with any of the ICC settings for paper.
Thanks for any further advice.
Cheers,
James0 -
NNN635603110626145838 wrote:
...
So, WW or Saal are expecting to receive AdobeRGB or sRGB images that I have processed using the ICC profile to simulate the appearance on paper. Correct?
...
I can't tell for WW. But for Saal, yes. And ProPhoto RGB too, for photo prints. See details here:
http://www.saal-digital.de/support/arti ... photo-rgb/NNN635603110626145838 wrote:
...
But, doesn’t this mean I need to change the ICC profile in the recipe to AbobeRGB before exporting? That seems, however, to defeat the purpose of recipes, which I thought was to create specific printing/export settings that could be selected as needed (without further changes).
...
What if you keep AdobeRGB in your recipe and temporarily change to the proof profile in menu - 'View' - 'Proof Profile'?
I rarely use print services. I'm sometimes using an Epson SC-P800 with Hahnemuehle Photo Rag Bright White to decorate my own walls. The prints are excellent, BW and color.
All papers have an impact on the print result. Limited by their capability of taking ink without bleeding out, toning the print because of their natural tint, and so on. I clearly see differences in the papers I use and used, especially when comparing photographic papers to fine art papers. The photographic papers can make strong colors pop. But for me, they cannot beat the fine art paper prints.
Regards,
Hans0 -
Do all your adjustment using the proof profile provided by the print service. When you are satisfied export in the colour space the print service asks for which will likely be sRGB or ARGB not in the print service proof profile. 0 -
Thanks for the Saal Link. Yes, their instructions are clear that the color space should be sRGB, AdobeRGB (1998) or ProPhoto, depending on the case.
Yes, I have tried the menu “View > Proof Profileâ€. That does show the image with the selected ICC profile (and could be used as a workaround). Nevertheless, it works independently of the proofing recipes and of the “show recipe proofing†button (eye-glasses shaped icon). The “show recipe proofing†function only shows the selected ICC profile for the selected recipe. So, if I leave the recipe at AdobeRGB, then using this function has no effect (since my monitor is already showing AdobeRGB).
The perplexing thing is that Capture One seems to implemented this feature to enable easy proofing of the recipes. The user manual refers, however, only the examples of Adobe RGB (print) or sRGB (web). So, I can only conclude one of two things:
- the ICC profiles only play a role with “soft proofing†and have no effect on the exported image file (as interpreted by the printer), or
- Capture One intends that the user create two recipes: one for soft proofing on the screen (with specific papers) and one for exports (with AdobeRGB). (This would conform to David's suggestion.)
I am going to do an empirical test by exporting a few selected images with the ICC profile “AdobeRGB†and with an ICC profile for a specific paper. I will then order prints from WW (and possibly from Saal), and see how they look. I will report back here once I get the results.
BTW: I have used Saal frequently in the past for small prints, and they have always been good. I have used White Wall for larger format BW prints and for my 2017 & 2018 calendars. Only the 2018 really showed a problem.0 -
NNN635603110626145838 wrote:
Thanks for the Saal Link. Yes, their instructions are clear that the color space should be sRGB, AdobeRGB (1998) or ProPhoto, depending on the case.
Yes, I have tried the menu “View > Proof Profileâ€. That does show the image with the selected ICC profile (and could be used as a workaround). Nevertheless, it works independently of the proofing recipes and of the “show recipe proofing†button (eye-glasses shaped icon). The “show recipe proofing†function only shows the selected ICC profile for the selected recipe. So, if I leave the recipe at AdobeRGB, then using this function has no effect (since my monitor is already showing AdobeRGB).
The perplexing thing is that Capture One seems to implemented this feature to enable easy proofing of the recipes. The user manual refers, however, only the examples of Adobe RGB (print) or sRGB (web). So, I can only conclude one of two things:
- the ICC profiles only play a role with “soft proofing†and have no effect on the exported image file (as interpreted by the printer), or
- Capture One intends that the user create two recipes: one for soft proofing on the screen (with specific papers) and one for exports (with AdobeRGB). (This would conform to David's suggestion.)
I am going to do an empirical test by exporting a few selected images with the ICC profile “AdobeRGB†and with an ICC profile for a specific paper. I will then order prints from WW (and possibly from Saal), and see how they look. I will report back here once I get the results.
BTW: I have used Saal frequently in the past for small prints, and they have always been good. I have used White Wall for larger format BW prints and for my 2017 & 2018 calendars. Only the 2018 really showed a problem.
You are correct in that the ICC profile only plays a role with soft proofing but the important thing is that you are adjusting the picture visualy on your monitor with that soft proofing profile. Capture One remembers all those adjustments and when you create a recipe to output a TIFF or JPEG in the color space (sRGB etc. asked for by your print service) it includes those adjustments such that when the print service puts it through their printer the output matches what you saw on the screen. There is no need to view recipe proofing in this situation it will not look right anyway.
Think of it as if you were sending a print to your own printer, you would select your paper profile from the long list of profiles in View/ProofProfile adjust the picture on screen visually then select File/print and make sure the paper profile you used was selected in the color profile drop down, recipe proofing would not come in to it.
In summary the procedure is
1) Obtain soft proofing ICC profile from your print service.
2) Load that profile into your operating system.
3) Open your picture for editing
4) Select View/ProofProfile and click on your print services ICC profile to select it
5) Do all your editing .
6) When all looks perfect go to Process recipies and select the recipe to match your print services requirements TIFF 8 or 16 bit jpeg etc etc and select the ICC profile he requires: Adobe RGB, ProPhoto or whatever but NOT the soft proofing profile he sent you.
7) No need to pre-view this as it will look slightly different than it did at the end of 5 and will only confuse.
8 ) Send the output file to your print service.
Enable recipe proofing is only really useful for images intended for the web where you will be able to pre-view exactly how the image will look on screen.0 -
'Show recipe proofing' does what it says: previewing the result of the processed recipe. It's not a 'show paper soft-proofing'.
If you use your soft-proofing profile in menu - 'View' - 'Proof Profile', you see the emulation of what the print will look like while adjusting. And with AdobeRGB in the recipe, CO will create an AdobeRGB output file, ready to be sent to the print service. I wouldn't call it a 'workaround'.
'Show recipe proofing' will show that output, but don't expect it to look nice after adjusting for the paper. You are creating a paper+ink+printer-specific image file.
- AdobeRGB, sRGB and ProPhoto RGB are color spaces/profiles to view, adjust, retouch and export images in.
- Soft-proofing profiles are for emulation of print results. They combine the printer driver's interpretation of your image's color space (here: AdobeRGB, sRGB or ProPhoto RGB) and the impact of the selected paper/ink combination for viewing.
- Paper profiles are used by the printer driver to adjust the amount of ink to reproduce the driver's color space on a specific paper.
Regards,
Hans0
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