Win 10 x64 C1 sRGB tagged output is not actually sRGB?
It looks more like Adobe RGB? Is anyone else seeing this or do I have it wrong?
Only recently licensed C1 but still have yet to process a satisfactory colour image:~/
Resulting files 'are' tagged sRGB but they look wrong unless 'viewed as' Adobe RGB.
Alternatively must I await Phase One official acceptance of my use of C1 in Win10?
Only recently licensed C1 but still have yet to process a satisfactory colour image:~/
Resulting files 'are' tagged sRGB but they look wrong unless 'viewed as' Adobe RGB.
Alternatively must I await Phase One official acceptance of my use of C1 in Win10?
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Please reference this post of mine:
viewtopic.php?f=57&t=19059&p=96562#p96562
Summary
CO 8.3.2 on Win10 is already working perfectly (though still not advised) color management-wise.0 -
[quote="Paul_Steunebrink" wrote:
Please reference this post of mine:
viewtopic.php?f=57&t=19059&p=96562#p96562
Already done ...before starting this thread.[quote="Paul_Steunebrink" wrote:
Summary
CO 8.3.2 on Win10 is already working perfectly (though still not advised) color management-wise.
Agreed. Seems to be working perfectly ...AFAIK having only just started with C1 (albeit no output yet).
Colour management... Capture One uses its own colour space internally - as explained elsewhere - whereas my point in this thread is that when C1 is supposed to be processing output, from its internal colour space down to sRGB, all C1 actually does is tag it as 'being' sRGB. C1 does not seem to be doing the actual downshifting work that its tagging is promising. It actually outputs a higher colour space (visually and VERY off the top of my head as a complete an utter Capture One newbie) nearer to Adobe RGB. Would you be able to confirm this somehow? Or is the universal line always going to be W10 isn't yet recognised by P1?
A response(s) may be delayed by the forum's apparent inability to deliver any of its code's promised 'notifications by email' to my server, located right here, I don't yet know why this should be so but I am looking into the various blocking agencies and filters. YMMV0 -
[quote="dreckly" wrote:
...
Colour management... Capture One uses its own colour space internally - as explained elsewhere - whereas my point in this thread is that when C1 is supposed to be processing output, from its internal colour space down to sRGB, all C1 actually does is tag it as 'being' sRGB. C1 does not seem to be doing the actual downshifting work that its tagging is promising. It actually outputs a higher colour space (visually and VERY off the top of my head as a complete an utter Capture One newbie) nearer to Adobe RGB. Would you be able to confirm this somehow?
Negative. No information, proof or personal experience does support this point of view as far as I am concerned. Also, I do not believe there is an Win10 issue here.0 -
[quote="Paul_Steunebrink" wrote:
[quote="dreckly" wrote:
...
Colour management... Capture One uses its own colour space internally - as explained elsewhere - whereas my point in this thread is that when C1 is supposed to be processing output, from its internal colour space down to sRGB, all C1 actually does is tag it as 'being' sRGB. C1 does not seem to be doing the actual downshifting work that its tagging is promising. It actually outputs a higher colour space (visually and VERY off the top of my head as a complete an utter Capture One newbie) nearer to Adobe RGB. Would you be able to confirm this somehow?
Negative. No information, proof or personal experience does support this point of view as far as I am concerned. Also, I do not believe there is an Win10 issue here.
Thank you for that clarity. Looks like I have more reading up to do working out quite what it is I'm now doing wrong in the Capture One RAW renderer that I haven't been doing wrong for the last half dozen years in the SilkyPIX RAW renderer.0 -
What viewer are you viewing the resulting bitmaps with ? 0 -
[quote="Christian Gruner" wrote:
What viewer are you viewing the resulting bitmaps with ?
Long term trusted viewers now being launched directly by the C1 recipe:
* usually SilkyPIX, JPEGview and PolyView64
* sometimes Opera Internet Browser v12.17 (not v31) and the Palemoon browser (Mozilla/Firefox fork)
* never Chrome, Firefox v40, IE, the Windows Photo Viewer or Opera v31
* bit early yet to even think about Edge
Conversational response(s) may be delayed by the forum's lack of email notifications.0 -
>>Christian Gruner: Almost 2am local :: closing :: G'night. 0 -
[quote="dreckly" wrote:
>>Christian Gruner
I'm back:-) Just received some associated interesting news.
Brief history: I am trying to take up with Capture One to work with images from the new Leica Q. When I asked my existing RAW renderers (SilkyPIX) whether they would add support for the Q they were not able to confirm it positively. Your spec showed existing support for the Q so I purchased a license after trying out the available and very useful tools in the C1 trial:-) The C1 catalogue stuff isn't of any use to me at all, C1 output isn't there (for me here in W10) yet but the C1 tools... they're really wonderful.
Currently: Today's update for SilkyPIX shows support has now been added for the Leica Q. In fact I've pulled a stock image taken by the Q into the updated SilkyPIX renderer and it is shown. Previously it was just a block. In some blinding coincidence I also received news that my dealer's long awaited pre-order queue has now reached my order. It will be here in a couple of days.
Am I able to assist Phase One get Capture One's colour management ready for use by the Windows 10 OS?
Conversational response(s) may be delayed by the forum's lack of email notifications.0 -
[quote="dreckly" wrote:
[quote="Christian Gruner" wrote:
What viewer are you viewing the resulting bitmaps with ?
Long term trusted viewers now being launched directly by the C1 recipe:
* usually SilkyPIX, JPEGview and PolyView64
* sometimes Opera Internet Browser v12.17 (not v31) and the Palemoon browser (Mozilla/Firefox fork)
* never Chrome, Firefox v40, IE, the Windows Photo Viewer or Opera v31
* bit early yet to even think about Edge
Conversational response(s) may be delayed by the forum's lack of email notifications.
Can you post some side by side examples?
We have not heard of any such instances from anyone else, so first off I would suspect the 3rd party viewers to not read the standard output profiles properly, or even at all.
On some browsers you explicitly have to enable color management (should be on by default, if you ask me)0 -
[quote="Christian Gruner" wrote:
Can you post some side by side examples? We have not heard of any such instances from anyone else, so first off I would suspect the 3rd party viewers to not read the standard output profiles properly, or even at all. On some browsers you explicitly have to enable color management (should be on by default, if you ask me)
Yes, as below (if I got the image links correct).
SilkyPIX is not a 3rd party viewer, it's an actual RAW renderer. It can also 'work' with JPGs (apparently C1 does not).
The above JPEG viewers do read standard output profiles properly, that's why I use them and specified them above.
I have instantiated this thread largely as a result of my inability to apparently or correctly use C1 for output. Either I'm driving C1 inappropriately or it's all the other way around. I am here to ask you to fix yours or guidance on how I fix me ...so to speak;-) Don't mind which, just as long as the issue is fixed.
The browsers I explicitly quoted have had colour management explicitly turned on or they just work out of the box. Whereas the browsers I excluded have not had CM turned on or simply don't work out of the box so I have avoided using them.
I agree with you in that colour management in browsers SHOULD be turned on by default.
Now have to work out your images-in-the-forum-logistics are configured... Also never used this OneDrive stuff before either. Who knows... it might work;~)
[Capture-A.PNG] http://1drv.ms/1PLcHqv
SilkyPIX no particular issue but this is how I would do it in this RAW renderer. The output does look consistent with the SilkyPIX screen edit.
[Capture-B.PNG] http://1drv.ms/1JLZtcO
C1 input showing the contents of its colour tab area.
[Capture-C.PNG] http://1drv.ms/1FjMABn
C1 output (apparently sRGB) - skin tones and the wood chipping path are too red and/or dark ("roasted"). The output does NOT look consistent with the C1 screen edit:-/
[Capture-D.PNG] http://1drv.ms/1JM09Pf
C1 output (apparently Adobe RGB) no particular issue except that JPEGView is configured *NOT* to respond to embedded tagging however the output does look consistent with the C1 screen edit.
[Capture-SilkyPIX-display-toggled-to-AdobeRGB-with-management-off.PNG] http://1drv.ms/1LLslS3
The manual on-screen toggle is bottom right :: consistent face tone Edit->Output.
[Capture-SilkyPIX-display-toggled-to-sRGB-with-management-off.PNG] http://1drv.ms/1LLsC7k
It's a LOT harder trying to explain it all than just doing it:-/ Tough post to prepare. Hope it's worth something for you (and me).
i) SilkyPIX amends the screen view on input and then outputs consistently.
ii) Capture One doesn't amend anything apparently on input (eg for viewing on screen) and then, in my case, outputs at variance to what has been edited. Is this just the way C1's design differs from that of SilkyPIX.
My screen is hardware calibrated and the OS is at default AFAIK (as per signature).
Or am I using C1 wrong? (friendly nod to Apple's 'explanations' of past design 'oddities')
PostEdit: a missing CR/LF and amended A) to i) and B) to ii) to avoid any confusion0 -
[quote="dreckly" wrote:
[quote="Christian Gruner" wrote:
Can you post some side by side examples? We have not heard of any such instances from anyone else, so first off I would suspect the 3rd party viewers to not read the standard output profiles properly, or even at all. On some browsers you explicitly have to enable color management (should be on by default, if you ask me)
ii) Capture One doesn't amend anything apparently on input (eg for viewing on screen) and then, in my case, outputs at variance to what has been edited. Is this just the way C1's design differs from that of SilkyPIX.
My screen is hardware calibrated and the OS is at default AFAIK (as per signature).
Or am I using C1 wrong? (friendly nod to Apple's 'explanations' of past design 'oddities')
PostEdit: a missing CR/LF and amended A) to i) and B) to ii) to avoid any confusion
You may want to try outputting a jpeg image in larger dimensions, say 1000px. In my trials and tribulations of trying to use CO1 as an allround image viewer, apart from noticing that color spaces other (larger) than srgb are clipped with jpeg images, no matter what settings, I also noticed that jpeg images that are smaller than 600px in either height or width, look horribly oversaturated and garish in CO1. This is absolutely foolproof: just get both dimensions of the jpeg above 600px, and suddenly the colors are right again.
So clearly CO1 is doing some funky stuff to jpeg images that are below the 600px threshold.
As to why? Perhaps Christian would like to chime in? He is after all closer to the fire than we are.
Chris0 -
[quote="ChrisM" wrote:
You may want to try outputting a jpeg image in larger dimensions, say 1000px. In my trials and tribulations of trying to use CO1 as an allround image viewer, apart from noticing that color spaces other (larger) than srgb are clipped with jpeg images, no matter what settings, I also noticed that jpeg images that are smaller than 600px in either height or width, look horribly oversaturated and garish in CO1. This is absolutely foolproof: just get both dimensions of the jpeg above 600px, and suddenly the colors are right again.
So clearly CO1 is doing some funky stuff to jpeg images that are below the 600px threshold.
As to why? Perhaps Christian would like to chime in? He is after all closer to the fire than we are.
THANK YOU for that input Chris. Frankly, I'm stunned by that news. News that I SINCERELY hope you have somewhat awry! (said in the nicest possible way). I expect my tools to output what I concoct or fashion. Anything else is just random aberration... basically wrong. That is quite upsetting news and, up to now, my experience with C1 has not been the best. I will do my utmost to resolve my own current difficulty AND help you to get to the bottom of a workaround for that under-600px apparent issue.
FWIW I have already worked hard to rewrite (eg cope with C1) the code my server uses to translate the data payload carried by output images into new requisite albums - dreckly published, if not sooner. For a good number of years I've fed this code with 1440px source images - for appropriate dynamic resizing.
That was a choice made when I had a (too cheap) 30" monitor. However nowadays I use a (too expensive) 27" and for convenience I had intended to make 1200px the new working size. Also I was going to start using Adobe RGB as the editing colour space after universal use of sRGB for rather more years than I care to try and remember. As I recall back in those days sRGB was a hopeful aspiration usually not even approximated and anything greater was just too costly and rare... So, these are my first steps with Adobe RGB and I am some regretting the arbitrary choices made already.
Capture One tools are simply wonderful - worth the cost of the C1 licence alone. However the C1 catalogue input mechanism I see as a miasma from hell. It'll likely cripple my workstation throwing over 200k of RAW images at it, I'm not even going to try to scale up. After all these years without such a problematic sounding database mechanism I probably don't need one now. I know what's what and where I put it, so if I CAN continue with C1 it'll be using it with sessions only. The rather more salient point is that I haven't got to grips with the getting out of C1 what I edit and desire but I live in hope. The only archetypal 'funk' or other colouration I want in my images is what *I* put in them not what a machine or its programmer(s) thought might be good for me. Sorry, I'd better switch off the Grumpy Old Man mode now;-)
Looking on the bright side the nice courier man is bringing me my new Leica tomorrow.0
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