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Too much standard auto crop after lens correction

Permanently deleted user
I find the 'automatic' cropping of image (Sony RX100) to be way too much. I understand this was done as the cropped area has less distortions, but I almost always use the area outside of the crop.
Unfortunately I can't find a way to set 'no crop' as default. For every batch of images one of the first things I do is 'un-crop' every imported image. Time consuming and tedious.
Is there a solution?
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  • Paul Steunebrink
    How do you un-crop? Is it possible to set this as a preset? A preset can be applied during import.
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  • Permanently deleted user
    I tried setting as preset, but this is not one of the items for which this works (that is my recollection from trying several weeks ago)
    Also a separate issue is I have 30k+ photos already imported. I've manually changed about 1k so far.
    To change I use the crop tool and expand the crop area to the max image area.

    I can follow up w/specifics when I have CO running.
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  • Permanently deleted user
    [quote="Alex1111" wrote:
    I find the 'automatic' cropping of image (Sony RX100) to be way too much. I understand this was done as the cropped area has less distortions, but I almost always use the area outside of the crop.
    Unfortunately I can't find a way to set 'no crop' as default. For every batch of images one of the first things I do is 'un-crop' every imported image. Time consuming and tedious.
    Is there a solution?


    Hi,
    from what I've noticed editing RX100 or RX10 files, the pixel count of the imported files is exactly the pixel count to be expected from those 20MP sensors. So I don't see where the lens correction process during import might be cropping more than it should. I'm aware though that the captured image is a bit wider than the 28mm on the wide end of the RX100 (somewhat around 26mm perhaps) and for specific needs this area could be used / usefull. But generally speaking those areas show already greater amounts of distortions and optical flaws so their use means certainly a compromise. I'd suggest to compare the normally corrected output of a RX100 RAW file with the JPG OOC output which looks at least to me a bit more corrected/cropped. If you don't want C1 to do any type of correction / undistortion for the really complex characteristics of RX100's lens perhaps it's worth to try whether it's possible to do the file import without the use of the camera profile (import with some generic profile or none) but I'm not sure whether this is avaliable.
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  • Dave R
    [quote="Alex1111" wrote:
    I find the 'automatic' cropping of image (Sony RX100) to be way too much. I understand this was done as the cropped area has less distortions, but I almost always use the area outside of the crop.
    Unfortunately I can't find a way to set 'no crop' as default. For every batch of images one of the first things I do is 'un-crop' every imported image. Time consuming and tedious.
    Is there a solution?

    If it's any consolation Lightroom crops even more off. The problem is that Capture One (and Lightroom) are using Sony's inbuilt characteristics for lens distortion correction which allows Sony to relax distortion correction in the lens design while optimising other characteristics.
    For those who are a bit unclear on what the problem is here is a picture taken with a RX100M3 at 24mm equivalent focal length (the wide end). First the actual RAW data uncorrected obtained with RAW digger

    http://m5.i.pbase.com/o9/05/376205/1/158337385.XatxY0s9.greece1123_nShot1.jpg

    While this is the Capture One interpretation of the same RAW master.

    http://m8.i.pbase.com/o9/05/376205/1/158337398.qnlG8LDG.greece11231.jpg

    Note the lens does suffer from really severe distortion and I don't see that the software can correct that without the significant cropping that occurs. Interestingly RAW Digger reports the original RAW as 5504x3672 pixle while the Exif reports and Capture One file is 5472x3648 pixle.

    Edit: I see the right side of the images have been chopped off. Th links to the uncropped images are


    and
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  • sankos
    It's actually more complicated than that, at least for the original RX100.

    If you import an RX100 file into C1 and output it straight away with Fixed Scale to 100% (Never Upscale checked) you get an output file with the same file dimensions as it says in the raw metadata: 5472x3948 (=20.2 MP). These are the same as you get from Lightroom 5, DxO Pro 9 and in-camera jpegs. All OK, or is it?

    If you actually look at those conversions from C1 and other programs you see that the original Lens Correction profile in C1 doesn't yield the same scene that you can see on your camera's preview -- it crops the sides off! Neither LR5 nor DxO9 do that, nor they should! It's a bad lens profile for RX100 Mk1. Download raws from IR or DPR and see for yourself if you don't believe me. Also, the default lens profile doesn't correct for Light Falloff (the slider is inactive), which is another hint that there's something wrong with the profile.

    So, what are RX100 owners supposed to do with this? Create a support case and hope somebody fixes that or experiment with the lens profile for RX100 Mk2. This time the Light Falloff slider works but you still see a smaller image, as noted by the previous posters. So you activate the crop tool, set the ratio to Original (3:2), drag the upper left corner of the bounding box leftwards and drag the bottom right corner rightwards (don't activate the "Crop Outside Image" option). Then output the file at Fixed Scale 100% and voila -- the output almost matches the in-camera jpeg, LR5 conversion or DxO9 conversion.

    BUT -- look at your file dimensions now. They grow to 5788x3859 (= 22 MP)!

    Now, look at the actual file dimensions of the raw file before it gets any corrections. Use e.g. Raw Digger or FastPicture Viewer. The raw file is 5496x3672. This means that C1 actually upscales RX100 Mk1 files when doing its conversion although you instruct it not to in the Export Recipe. Why? Anybody cares to explain the rationale behind that?

    My workaround for all of this is: set the export recipe so that it exports at the supposed dimensions: 5472x3648.

    What a mess. And I haven't even started talking about the colour profile for the same camera... But I still like the fact that Sony and PhaseOne decided for their cooperation. Hopefully this will result in better profiling of future cameras. Maybe, just MAYbe, somebody notices the substandard profiling for some older cameras...
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  • Permanently deleted user
    [quote="sankos"] wrote:
    ...

    BUT -- look at your file dimensions now. They grow to 5788x3859 (= 22 MP)!

    Now, look at the actual file dimensions of the raw file before it gets any corrections. Use e.g. Raw Digger or FastPicture Viewer. The raw file is 5496x3672. This means that C1 actually upscales RX100 Mk1 files when doing its conversion although you instruct it not to in the Export Recipe. Why? Anybody cares to explain the rationale behind that?

    My workaround for all of this is: set the export recipe so that it exports at the supposed dimensions: 5472x3648.
    ...[/quote]

    Hi,

    sorry, I think I don't get your point. Digitally performed lens correction, from my understanding, needs data to work with. It's not like introducing corrective glass elements in the light path. It's a correction after the fact. So the subject is depicted distorted on the sensor. Then calculations are performed to make straight lines as straight as possible. In order to correct for a certain amount of distortions from a given image size (MP count) to a certain output size (the 20,2MP) the image eventually needs to be stretched so that a 3:2 ratio corrected cut-out of 20,2MP of size can be extracted from the data. I've just tested the real full size of a RX100 image in C1Pro V.8 with the lens at 10,4mm and I got at impressive 6,222 x 3,821 pixel. Since the lens distortions vary over the zoom range it's most likely that the needed "stretching" varies also. If Sony is able to do it a bit better in-camera, perhaps they know better what corrections the lens need. Or they correct less. But I'm not getting it what you fear to loose? That the 28mm eq. advertised lens doesn't get you the true angle of view of a 28mm? Are your shoots that critical on the borders? Then perhaps a step back would do the trick. Or another camera with a wider lens like the RX10 which goes to 24mm.

    BTW, there's a catch with dixing your output size to 5,472px wide because it means that all images where you apply some crop will be upressed to that pixel count. The best bet is setting the output to fixed 100%.
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  • sankos
    I've just tested the real full size of a RX100 image in C1Pro V.8 with the lens at 10,4mm and I got at impressive 6,222 x 3,821 pixel.


    Well, the real full size raw image is 5496x3672 -- this is the amount of data captured by the camera. C1 uprezzes it to the value you quoted if you use the crop tool on the file or back off from the distortion correction. Clearly that shouldn't take place. I tested the very same files on LR5, DxO9, PhotoNinja and RawTherapee and they never exceed the raw pixel value captured by camera, whereas C1 inserts a lot of pixels which weren't there when captured by camera. I haven't tested it with many other cameras but C1 doesn't do that for my K10D files and various lenses (and I don't think it should), so my conclusion is that there's some kind of bug here for this specific camera (correct me if I'm wrong on that).

    Why do I object to that? Because if I want to uprez my file I want to be in control of it -- uprezzing means sharpness compromise, even when done in a very clever way. What I actually do with the files requires downsampling and not upsampling, most of the time.
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  • Dave R
    [quote="sankos" wrote:
    I've just tested the real full size of a RX100 image in C1Pro V.8 with the lens at 10,4mm and I got at impressive 6,222 x 3,821 pixel.


    Well, the real full size raw image is 5496x3672 -- this is the amount of data captured by the camera. C1 uprezzes it to the value you quoted if you use the crop tool on the file or back off from the distortion correction. Clearly that shouldn't take place. I tested the very same files on LR5, DxO9, PhotoNinja and RawTherapee and they never exceed the raw pixel value captured by camera, whereas C1 inserts a lot of pixels which weren't there when captured by camera. I haven't tested it with many other cameras but C1 doesn't do that for my K10D files and various lenses (and I don't think it should), so my conclusion is that there's some kind of bug here for this specific camera (correct me if I'm wrong on that).

    .

    I think you will find that LR does the same stretching, it's just that it hides the details away so you only see the end result which if anything is more cropped (and therefore stretched) than with Capture One.
    By the way to see exactly what is happening in Capture One select Lens Correction Panel, deselect Hide Distorted Areas and select the crop tool from the cursor tools. then slide the distortion slider back and fro.
    BTW I think all you are asking for is that the distortion slider always defaults to 0% rather than 0% for low distortion lenses and 100% for high distortion lenses.
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