PhaseOne and subscription licensing
First let me start by saying this is my first post and I am not 100% sure if this is the right forum to ask. So, if am in the wrong place I will take no offence to being told so. Please don't take any offence by my asking this here 😊 .
As many of you know Adobe has switched entirely to subscription licensing. I have no desire to rent software. Neither do I desire to criticize others who are happy to - I totally get the reasons why it can be good for many situations. Long story short I am looking for a new home and Capture One is defiantly on the shortlist due to features however I have to pause when I see that Phase One also offers their software by subscription.
How long has Phase One had both perpetual licenses and subscription licenses for their products? Do they have an official discussion about their plans for same (if they do I cannot find it)? Do posters here have a feeling that Phase One has a plan they are going to stick to regarding perpetual licenses? Or do you feel that the business side of the company might push them to be dropped at any moment?
The last thing I want is to make the switch and then find out I am out in the cold again. My preference is to pay good money for good software that I can use for as long as I want and choose when it is convenient for me to budge upgrading.
Ian
As many of you know Adobe has switched entirely to subscription licensing. I have no desire to rent software. Neither do I desire to criticize others who are happy to - I totally get the reasons why it can be good for many situations. Long story short I am looking for a new home and Capture One is defiantly on the shortlist due to features however I have to pause when I see that Phase One also offers their software by subscription.
How long has Phase One had both perpetual licenses and subscription licenses for their products? Do they have an official discussion about their plans for same (if they do I cannot find it)? Do posters here have a feeling that Phase One has a plan they are going to stick to regarding perpetual licenses? Or do you feel that the business side of the company might push them to be dropped at any moment?
The last thing I want is to make the switch and then find out I am out in the cold again. My preference is to pay good money for good software that I can use for as long as I want and choose when it is convenient for me to budge upgrading.
Ian
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Me too was exploring this situation and I found the release notes here
As far as I know Phase One offers upgrades up to two versions back (i.e. now you can upgrade from 8 or 9 to 10) and every new version is compatible with the last two macOS's. For example C1 9 is officialy compatible with Yosemite and El Capitan, but I think it will also work with Sierra. C1 10 is compatible with El Capitan and Sierra. C1 10 is not compatible with High Sierra, please see
They introduced the subscription option with C1 8, please see . I think it was 8 € + VAT per month back in 2014 as an introductory offer for the first 12 months. They have explained the subscription like thisWith version 8, we have created an alternative to buying the software outright. Now photographers can choose to subscribe to Capture One Pro. For a modest recurring monthly fee, a subscription offers access to the latest and greatest of Capture One Pro, across minor and major updates. No matter if you buy or subscribe to Capture One Pro you always have full local control of your images and the enhancements you make to them; there is no cloud complexity with Capture One Pro."
C1 9 was released at the end of 2015 with 12 € + VAT per month for a 12 month plan subscription and C1 10 was released at the end of 2016 with the same price of 12 € + VAT per month for a 12 month plan subscription.
I think C1 8 single license is for up to 2 computers simultaneously and C1 9 or C1 10 single license is for up to 3 computers.
I have C1 8 and will upgrade to C1 10. I think they won't go subscription only. This of course is only my opinion and wishful thinking.
I think they won't go subscription only for these reasons:
(1) They offer also the free C1 DB version for the owners of the Phase One digital backs. This means the software will be continuously developed for their high end clients free of charge in any case.
(2) The software is mainly for professional photographers and studios, i.e. for production machines, which means that extensive testing is done on non production machines prior to upgrading, which means that some studios like to "bake" their production machines with a certain version of C1 and upgrade only a couple of months after the new release if everything is really stable (which is usually at the .1 or .2 release of the new version).
(3) C1 is primarly based on tethered capture and sessions, thus no need for cloud services or cloud storage.
(4) Phase One is an European Company based in Copenhagen Denmark and not a USA Company like Adobe. I think European companies have different approach to software licensing and maintance and of course there is different economic situation in the EU regarding the USA.
Compared to Lightroom I think C1 is superior in every regard. I dropped from Lightroom early on at the Lightroom 2. Hope this helps.0 -
Thanks. That is more info that I have found. Mind you there are no official statements about maintaining perpetual licenses. Of course Adobe said they would not drop perpetual licenses and then didn't keep their word.
The fact that there are a non zero number of former LR users looking around because of this it might be a good opportunity for marketing to create some new leads...0 -
Unless one of us has a working crystal ball, that means there are no promises to be broken 😉
I wonder what is most important in the decision which application to use, how you pay for it (on the 'future') or what it can do (right now).0 -
I don't agree that there was no promise but this is not the place for that discussion.
As for what is most important I would like to consider features only but for me renting is a show stopper. If that was the only way to pay or there was a risk of that happening it would eliminate a product form consideration, for me. Like I said I have nothing against a rental offering - I get that many people like it and that is great. I just need to be in control of costs so I will not be going that way, excellent feature list, or not.0 -
One of the potential challenges of "ownership" that is almost impossible to predict is what you might need in the future.
For example.
If you never expect to upgrade you camera (or at least not upgrade beyond any currently available and supported cameras) then you reduce the risk of suddently finding you NEED to upgrade because your camera is not supported. (Shooting JPG or, perhaps where offered, DNG might to some extent minimise that concern.
Similarly if you can feel comfortable with staying with the same hardware in case future updates do not have backwards compatibility to run older programs then that is another risk minimised.
And then you have your operating system to consider.
Once again if you can stay with an old version long after it is abandoned and taken off life support (should the need arise) then that would be fine too. One would only need to accept potential hits on security of logging on to an network but there are ways around that too.
On the other hand if you suspect you might be forced, eventually, to upgrade hardware, operating system, or camera for any reason there are some risks involved with relying on an "owned" model in that things may change and make that ownership non-operational anyway. This is perhaps somewhat less of a risk for a Windows user than Mac at this time - but one can never assume it will stay that way and, in the main (sadly in my view) many things in out lives seem to be tending toward renting one's life rather than owning it!
I don't think anyone can guarantee that they will not move their business model into new areas at some point in the future. To not change might, ,in some circumstances, mean the edn of the company so in a business sense (and for clients) retaining flexibility may be a requirement. If you end up with 1M customer and 100 of them want to buy and own it might simply become uneconomic to operate that service for the 100 even if you want to.
So far as I am aware C1 is on record as saying they do not expect to attempt to convert everyone to a subscription model and I think that is good news.
The situation with, for example, Microsoft is less clear. Will they allow people to own operating systems? If not what happens to your old, perpetually paid for, OS if you cancel a subscription at some future point?
We perhaps need to consider what the real costs are for keeping up to date (or not keeping up to date) compared to our overall expenditure on out photographic endeavours. Then what the risks are for whatever alternative strategy we might have. Use free open source products? Potentially cost effective but continuity is not guaranteed any more than it is from a commercial vendor's possible future business models. In fact more likley it is less guaranteed.
I don't have an answer - wish I did as I am not a subscription model fan - but the purchase alternative cannot possibly be absolutely guaranteed for all time. What we can beleive as the moment it that "purchase" is still a primary option and should continue like that. Subscriptions are there for those with flexible needs or those who want to budget for cash flow purposes or, maybe, have tax advantages under some tax regimes if they are running a business.
Of the businesses I am involved with there is no way I would feel fully comfortable guaranteeing some aspect of the operation in perpetuity because I know things outside our control will change and we will probably need to change with them in some way.
Just my opinion of course.
Grant0 -
[quote="SFA" wrote:
I don't think anyone can guarantee that they will not move their business model into new areas at some point in the future. To not change might, ,in some circumstances, mean the edn of the company so in a business sense (and for clients) retaining flexibility may be a requirement. If you end up with 1M customer and 100 of them want to buy and own it might simply become uneconomic to operate that service for the 100 even if you want to.
So far as I am aware C1 is on record as saying they do not expect to attempt to convert everyone to a subscription model and I think that is good news.
I would love to read that - I cannot find it - any idea where to look.[quote="SFA" wrote:
Just my opinion of course.
Grant
Thanks I appreciate it.0 -
[quote="IanL" wrote:
[quote="SFA" wrote:
I don't think anyone can guarantee that they will not move their business model into new areas at some point in the future. To not change might, ,in some circumstances, mean the edn of the company so in a business sense (and for clients) retaining flexibility may be a requirement. If you end up with 1M customer and 100 of them want to buy and own it might simply become uneconomic to operate that service for the 100 even if you want to.
So far as I am aware C1 is on record as saying they do not expect to attempt to convert everyone to a subscription model and I think that is good news.
I would love to read that - I cannot find it - any idea where to look.[quote="SFA" wrote:
Just my opinion of course.
Grant
Thanks I appreciate it.
This being a User to User forum by intent and with Phase having a general and widely (but not exclusively) applied principle of not commenting or speculating in "futures", your best option might be to create a Support Case and ask the question directly BUT if policy dictates you do not get the sort of personal and confidential reply you might like, don't be surprised and upset.
It's just policy and realistically, on balance, it probably makes good sense no matter how frustrating the principle might seem.
Meanwhile try this past post.
viewtopic.php?f=52&t=17089&p=81439&hilit=subscription+model#p81439
However I would reiterate that that if the market moves in a direction that, technically or financially, results in the historic "ownership" model becoming obsolete then that is the way things will go for the entire industry or at least the commercially based parts of it.
Adobe seems to have had great success, it claims, with the subscription model.
One suspects that there may be a lot of "mobile" users who see the cost as nothing more than an extension of their cell phone rental contract. Do the users care? Maybe not. Recent report suggest that many don't even realise that they rental period for the portion of the monthly fee that covered the financing of the phone has ended and the continue to pay the same and fail to "claim" the upgrade they might expect to take to make the contract worthwhile.
Against the background the software subscription model sounds like a great money maker. After all, like phone contracts, it may appear to offer an excellent deal to keep everything up to date (as phone contracts offer high numberf of call minutes and text messages that few people will be able to use) and at the price looks like a bargain.
In reality the isses, as I see them are;
do you need the updates?
If you do - under what circumstances?
Is the real cost of the updates you may wish to take really so different between a subscription scheme and an "own it" scheme?
Does the subscription option leave you with software you can still use once it ends?
If you feel that you could save a significant amount of cash (given the relatively high cost of technology in a digital photography based activity, Pro or Enthusiast) by buying the software but not always opting for each new version when available, then the subject may be worthy of consideration.
If you will be upgrading anyway its less of a deal.
If you are looking for rock solid guarantees I really doubt that anyone can offer them honestly far into the future BUT they can, and some do, offer statements that clearly describe policies at the time the statements are made and you have to take a view about whether they sound genuine and realistic and deliverable.
The thing is - if you trust no one you have nowhere to turn unless you develop your own applications. Even then the people who provide the tools you use will, from time to time, change them and force you to undertake work you do not want to do with likely zero benefit from it.
As I said earlier, there are no guarantees but, so far, my C1 experience has been fine and leads me to expect that it will continue to be so.
I have no plans to change to a subscription basis. But if it became necessary for some reason then so be it. I could assess my needs again at that point and review what the market had to offer by then.
HTH.
Grant0 -
Thank you Grant I appreciate it. I actually did not realize this was user only site with little or no official participation. It is good to match expectations with reality. 0 -
So I took your advice Grant and opened a support ticket. They kindly gave me about as good an answer as possible: support said they could not comment on future development but that they "don't have any immediate plans on discontinue neither of the two".
I cannot fault them for saying that. That is pretty much what Adobe said. So, that part didn't really make me feel better.
But the support person kindly did indicate "I can inform you that our customers are very much divided on both the perpetual and subscription licensing." Of course Adobe basically said there was not enough demand for perpetual licenses. Given that both companies have offered both methods for roughly the same time it is heartening to know that there are still a lot of Capture One users who are staying with perpetual licensing.
The last thing they added was a suggestion that I visit the store to decide what is best for me. I am glad I did because right after clicking on Capture One Pro you are presented with two purchase buttons "I want to subscribe" and "I want to buy". Now that is refreshing. Adobe spent years trying to hide the perpetual license purchase option. There were blog posts on how to find the product in their store. So, they essentially setup a self fulfilling prophecy that less customers opted to use the perpetual license option (because it was a second class choice) and then they used the declining numbers to kill it off. Grrr
So, on the whole I feel much better although not totally assuaged. Honestly I had hopped for a stronger commitment but I get why they are not willing to do that.
At this point I will not discount Capture One while I conduct my search for a new home. Thanks for everyone's help.0
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