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Falling in love only to come crashing back to reality.

NNN636789232677796275
A month with Capture One has been enough to convince me that it is the right option for me. I'm a new photographer and grappling with which RAW developer to use has been much more difficult than deciding which camera/lens system ever was. I have an older laptop with i5, 8GB of RAM, SSD, that has functioned perfectly well for everything (including music production) until I threw imaging at it.

Over the past few months I have used LR, Darktable, Luminar (3 and 2018), DXO Photolab, and Capture One. I get by far the best results, the fastest with Capture One. I find its workflow and resource usage to be the best for me.

Now onto the cost. $299usd (or $325usd after GST for Australian customers) is a lot of money, especially if I am going to then pay $149usd in a years time to upgrade to CO13. I understand that there is far more capability in this software than others that are around $100usd outright, but it seems there has been an opportunity missed by Phase One here.

I am sure many people (non professionals really) would like me, be willing to pay around $150usd (up to $200usd) outright for a version of CO that had all the RAW development tools without the tethering, advanced asset/project management, and output tools that CO12Pro has. Considering software has a fixed cost of development regardless of sales volume, a lower margin higher volume selling variant of CO would easily increase the ROI from development.

Not having a large amount of money available to dedicate towards photography right now I am faced with waiting to save up for a license, a heavy discount to appear, or just moving on to other RAW developers.

I hope this is some feedback that the Phase One team considers. After all, DXO was pretty nice, and Luminar 3 is OK. ON1 is the next one I want to try.
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  • GrahamB3
    You apparently like the product, but would like to pay less for it. I could apply that to just about every product and service I use. Some things can be negotiated, some are take it or leave it.

    If Phase One's current business model for Capture One doesn't meet projections, they'll tweak it. C1 11, and previous versions, offered a reduced feature version for free. One is unlikely to see reduced feature for reduced price C1 versions for the current iteration.
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  • SFA
    [quote="GrahamB3" wrote:
    C1 11, and previous versions, offered a reduced feature version for free. One is unlikely to see reduced feature for reduced price C1 versions for the current iteration.


    The original Feature reduced Express version was dropped some time before the idea was revised but for the Sony RAW files Only manufacturer specific version. That alternative has now been repeated with the free FujiFilm only version for Fuji camera's RAW files.

    However most of the really useful editing and processing that I like to use is in the Pro versions. The free versions are great it needs are limited or one historically does most of one's image preparation in, say, Photoshop or some other application and see no need to change that workflow.

    I think it comes down to considering how much one likes the results one can achieve and how much effort and time it takes to get to them.

    If the results are liked and the effort is more often than not enjoyable and the time is less than one might previously have taken ... what is that worth?

    More specifically, what it is worth to each individual within their specific list of 'satisfaction' requirements?

    Nothing else and no other comparisons really matter.


    Grant
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  • Irvin Gomez
    [quote="NNN636789232677796275" wrote:
    Over the past few months I have used LR, Darktable, Luminar (3 and 2018), DXO Photolab, and Capture One. I get by far the best results, the fastest with Capture One. I find its workflow and resource usage to be the best for me.

    Now onto the cost. $299usd (or $325usd after GST for Australian customers) is a lot of money, especially if I am going to then pay $149usd in a years time to upgrade to CO13. I understand that there is far more capability in this software than others that are around $100usd outright, but it seems there has been an opportunity missed by Phase One here.

    I am sure many people (non professionals really) would like me, be willing to pay around $150usd (up to $200usd) outright for a version of CO that had all the RAW development tools without the tethering, advanced asset/project management, and output tools that CO12Pro has. Considering software has a fixed cost of development regardless of sales volume, a lower margin higher volume selling variant of CO would easily increase the ROI from development.

    Not having a large amount of money available to dedicate towards photography right now I am faced with waiting to save up for a license, a heavy discount to appear, or just moving on to other RAW developers.


    The thing is COP by itself is not enough. Can’t do common things very popular today, like HDR stacking, Focus Stacking, Frequency Separation, Blur Brush, etc.. So, the cost quickly becomes prohibitive.

    On the other hand, Phase One has a right to do what is best for its business. We, users, can only vote with our wallets. I just did with v12: no more upgrades ever priced over US$100. Just not enough value for me.
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  • GrahamB3
    [quote="Irvin.Gomez" wrote:


    The thing is COP by itself is not enough. Can’t do common things very popular today, like HDR stacking, Focus Stacking, Frequency Separation, Blur Brush, etc.. So, the cost quickly becomes prohibitive.


    One may use the Helicon focus stacking plugin with v12. The first month is free.
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  • Irvin Gomez
    [quote="GrahamB3" wrote:
    [quote="Irvin.Gomez" wrote:


    The thing is COP by itself is not enough. Can’t do common things very popular today, like HDR stacking, Focus Stacking, Frequency Separation, Blur Brush, etc.. So, the cost quickly becomes prohibitive.


    One may use the Helicon focus stacking plugin with v12. The first month is free.


    Sure. We have to invest in additional products (the Adobe subscription, in my case) to compensate for COP’s limitations. That has to be factored into the cost. I decided the recent upgrade is not worth it *for me*. Will not ever pay over $100 for a COPro upgrade.
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  • Paul Spatafora
    [quote="Irvin.Gomez" wrote:
    [quote="GrahamB3" wrote:
    [quote="Irvin.Gomez" wrote:


    The thing is COP by itself is not enough. Can’t do common things very popular today, like HDR stacking, Focus Stacking, Frequency Separation, Blur Brush, etc.. So, the cost quickly becomes prohibitive.


    One may use the Helicon focus stacking plugin with v12. The first month is free.


    Sure. We have to invest in additional products (the Adobe subscription, in my case) to compensate for COP’s limitations. That has to be factored into the cost. I decided the recent upgrade is not worth it *for me*. Will not ever pay over $100 for a COPro upgrade.


    I was so mad at the cost of the upgrade that I downloaded every competitor to CO and gave everything a test drive using a wide range of photos. These were my findings:

    1. DxO is a worthy competitor and the file quality is on par with CO. The purchase price is lower and you can get the whole suite of products including Nik and the filter package for the cost of one purchase of CO

    2. Luminar 3 is an interesting product. It is neither a Pro RAW converter nor an editor. It's a strange somewhere in between. This package is where a RAW converter will end up in the future. In reality, it only needs a good Cropping and Rotating tool to make it viable. I have written to Skylum and suggested my findings to make it a viable alternative to CO.Personally I think it's one year away from seriously competing with CO. Image quality is half a step behind CO. Luminar's layer system is so much better than CO's and a few steps behind a real photo editor. I ended up buying it as a backup to CO.

    3. LR. I have it, never use it and hate it. Image quality is not as good as CO.

    4. ON1's workflow just doesn't work for me.

    5. Dark table. Really tried to use it. The more I used it, the more I hated it.

    6. CO. After looking at everything, I decided to upgrade for one more year, with the hope that Skylum will correct a few things in Luminar 3. They need an effective rotation and cropping tool and solid color management for it to compete with CO. CO, has the best IQ so far and Luminar is second.

    Luminar focuses on filters and creative tools but it needs to focus on more pro tools to be an effective RAW converter to switch over.

    Hope this helps.

    Paul
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  • Irvin Gomez
    [quote="NNN635018233259472077" wrote:

    I was so mad at the cost of the upgrade that I downloaded every competitor to CO and gave everything a test drive using a wide range of photos.

    After looking at everything, I decided to upgrade for one more year, with the hope that Skylum will correct a few things in Luminar 3


    I was not upset or ‘mad’ at the unreasonable (in my opinion) high upgrade price. It’s a business and businesses have to do what is good for their bottom line.

    I’m slowly returning to Lightroom due to the vast improvements made to the auto-tone feature, but will sill use Capture One (which I like a lot) v11 for a while.
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  • Michael Rogers
    I was so mad at the cost of the upgrade that I downloaded every competitor to CO and gave everything a test drive using a wide range of photos. These were my findings


    Have you also looked at Alien Skin's Exposure x4 and RawTherapee? I would be interested in your thoughts.

    Mike
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  • Paul Spatafora
    [quote="NN636139655180027490UL" wrote:
    I was so mad at the cost of the upgrade that I downloaded every competitor to CO and gave everything a test drive using a wide range of photos. These were my findings


    Have you also looked at Alien Skin's Exposure x4 and RawTherapee? I would be interested in your thoughts.

    Mike

    Hi Mike,

    Thanks for the pointing out to these 2 programs. I downloaded the two and have to say that Exposure X4 looks very promising. It looks like I won't have to spend $589 CD to get CO and the filter packs. They're all in Exposure X4 for $199 USD. The layers feature looks more refined than CO by a mile, and all the basic stuff is there. I'll put it through it's paces in the next 30 days and compare it to CO. If the image quality is up to par with CO, It looks like next year I might switch to Luminar or Exposure X. I'm sure next year, the upgrade to CO will require selling a kidney.

    RAW Therapee was way to geeky for me. I'm sure it's a wonderful product, but I'm too old to learn something complicated like that. That's the problem with those GNU programs, they are so complicated and offer you way too many choices that are for geeks, which I don't understand.

    Give Exposure X4 a whirl, and let me know your thoughts.

    Paul
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  • Michael Rogers
    Paul,

    I tried Exposure X4 and really liked it too. The only thing that held me back was the lack of CA lens corrections. I'm still interested as to your thoughts regarding X4's functionality compared to Capture One 12.

    RawTherapee is as you say just too "geeky". The overwhelming amount of options is confusing to me.

    Mike
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  • Filthy Lucre
    [quote="Irvin.Gomez" wrote:
    [quote="NNN635018233259472077" wrote:

    I was so mad at the cost of the upgrade that I downloaded every competitor to CO and gave everything a test drive using a wide range of photos.

    After looking at everything, I decided to upgrade for one more year, with the hope that Skylum will correct a few things in Luminar 3


    I was not upset or ‘mad’ at the unreasonable (in my opinion) high upgrade price. It’s a business and businesses have to do what is good for their bottom line.

    I’m slowly returning to Lightroom due to the vast improvements made to the auto-tone feature, but will sill use Capture One (which I like a lot) v11 for a while.

    I've been on board with C1 since version 7, but the new upgrade pricing increase/gouge is causing me to rethink C1's value. Unless a hefty rebate/discount is forthcoming, I will likely stand pat at V10 until I settle on another product. C1 is good, but it's not nearly double the upgrade price good.
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  • Permanently deleted user
    [quote="Filthy Lucre" wrote:


    I've been on board with C1 since version 7, but the new upgrade pricing increase/gouge is causing me to rethink C1's value. Unless a hefty rebate/discount is forthcoming, I will likely stand pat at V10 until I settle on another product. C1 is good, but it's not nearly double the upgrade price good.


    I had bought CO5 (not Pro) for 61.25€ (49€ + 25% VAT) at half of his price and I had Expression Media 2 for free.
    Actually I bough it just for EM2 but I liked it so much that I decided to stick to it.

    So I upgraded to COP6 for 137€ + VAT (171,25€) with IIRC a 50% discount again.

    I then upgraded to COP7 and Media Pro (I think MP upgrade was free upgrading to COP7) for 67,50€ (I think 50% off again) and I had a free upgrade to COP8 too.

    I have been away from photography for 4 years since then but it seems to me that unfortunately hefty rebate times are gone.

    I have been lucky to pay just 300€ in many years for 1 Express and 3 Pro editions plus Expression Media 2 and Media Pro (and I have to add a courtesy upgrade to Media Pro SE to solve some issues too). I've not been so lucky to pay even more for CO11 only without an upgrade discount option just a couple of days before 12 came out with a valid upgrade plan from CO7. I'm still a little bothered to have practically paid almost the double for CO12. It's nobody's fault and fortunately I like it enough, but I don't know if I will upgrade again at these prices. I'm not a pro even if photography has a great role in my "job" but I'm already paying for an Adobe CC photography plan for everything CO is not able of.
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  • Paul Spatafora
    [quote="NN636139655180027490UL" wrote:
    Paul,

    I tried Exposure X4 and really liked it too. The only thing that held me back was the lack of CA lens corrections. I'm still interested as to your thoughts regarding X4's functionality compared to Capture One 12.

    RawTherapee is as you say just too "geeky". The overwhelming amount of options is confusing to me.

    Mike

    Hi Mike,

    I've been playing with it all morning and really like Exposure X4. I have been asking CO since V8 for a more flexible watermarking tool to add text and images to the watermark. Exposure has this feature and it's very flexible. WOW! I can't believe it has it and I've written to CO for years asking for this.

    It also has all those gimmicky filters, B&W filters, and so forth. CO wants you to pay for them and at a hefty price. I wrote to them telling them that there is no value to the consumer to "buy" them when LR, and the rest include them as a sweetener to buy their software.

    They added a few tools to V12 which as it appears, everyone had already!! I have been complaisant with my software research hoping that CO is just a bit behind and now I realized that they are really far behind. I had heard from a reliable source that they were placing a lot of their engineering resources on there hardware and not on the software. V12 is essentially a bug fix just like V11 was. I wrote to CO telling them that I don't drive a Mercedes but a Ford, and that I don't have a gaggle of technicians working for me like in there videos. I'm a meat and potatoes photographer, so I'm looking for support and value.

    Having said all this, I did purchase V12 for it's image quality, but now I know that their are a few good alternative that can replace CO, so for the next upgrade cycle, I will probably switch. Mostly likely Exposure X5. It has a workflow I understand and many of the tools I've asked CO to add since I started using it but never got. Luminar is a potential choice too, but I have hope that they might improve by the time I upgrade next year.

    In the end, I upgraded to CO V12 because it still have the best image quality, but as I discovered the alternatives are so close now that image quality is not a game changer like it was a few years ago. If you're on the fence, and haven't upgraded to CO V12, the CA feature would not be a show stopper to me any longer. You can contact Alien and find out if they are considering it as an upgrade for future versions.

    Sorry that we're discussing this on CO's forum.

    Hope this helps.

    Paul
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  • Filthy Lucre
    [quote="NNN635018233259472077" wrote:
    [quote="NN636139655180027490UL" wrote:

    Sorry that we're discussing this on CO's forum.

    Don't be. C1 is directly responsible (by both their actions and inactions) for people discussing the value of C1 vis-a-vis other software.
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  • richard neal
    I have tried many of the other editors lately too but I still prefer Capture 1. Im usually the sort of person who always pays for software upgrades, I even logged in to my account ready to upgrade and stopped short at the price. There just arent enough features to justify the increase so im sticking with version 11.

    Whats sad about this is, C1 make the upgrade price even bigger if you are upgrading from an earlier version so it means by staying with 11, im likely going to be faced with a huge upgrade price when a version appears that is worth buying. I, like many others likely came here to avoid adobe subscription models, so that isnt going to be an option going forward and then sooner or later ill have a camera that isnt supported by version 11 and at that point ill end up going elsewhere.

    C1 need to stop taking tips from the apple play book. Increasing the price for incremental updates only works for a short while, eventually you will lose your customer base
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  • Paul Spatafora
    [quote="Diggedy" wrote:
    I have tried many of the other editors lately too but I still prefer Capture 1. Im usually the sort of person who always pays for software upgrades, I even logged in to my account ready to upgrade and stopped short at the price. There just arent enough features to justify the increase so im sticking with version 11.

    Whats sad about this is, C1 make the upgrade price even bigger if you are upgrading from an earlier version so it means by staying with 11, im likely going to be faced with a huge upgrade price when a version appears that is worth buying. I, like many others likely came here to avoid adobe subscription models, so that isnt going to be an option going forward and then sooner or later ill have a camera that isnt supported by version 11 and at that point ill end up going elsewhere.

    C1 need to stop taking tips from the apple play book. Increasing the price for incremental updates only works for a short while, eventually you will lose your customer base


    I would seriously consider Exposure X4. I have been testing it extensively and I think it will replace CO eventually. I'm kicking myself for upgrading, but I'll definitely look at Exposure again at the end of the year. I don't need two converters. The Gucci pricing of CO is going to be out of reach for most of us. I think they are marketing for the uber high end photographers and not the meat and potatoes type like myself. The Exposure IQ is very close to CO and the tool set is really good and it includes lots of filters. I couldn't believe some of the pricing on their upgrade page. I haven't seen prices like that since Adobe was charging mega bucks for PS back in the day. Now you can get PS and LR for the same price as Netflix's.

    The other software I'm keeping a close eye in Luminar. It's not prime time yet, but they are listening to their user base and I suspect that they will improve it this year. It gets a lot of good press for the cost, but it is not a serious production tool yet.

    Hope this helps.

    Paul
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  • Permanently deleted user
    Thanks Paul for the info on exposure. I upgraded at last minute to v12 because they were taking 10% discount away as of Jan 1, 2019. It will be the last time. I have dxo which is my second raw editor I use depending on what I need. Their upgrade price is very reasonable. I also have the adobe photography plan. The last one I have is luminar which came with the 5 day deal I do every year. The upgrade to vs3 was free. I have not tried luminar yet.
    I will now look at alien exposure to see if it can replace dxo and capture one.
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  • Paul Spatafora
    [quote="NNN635125303983928245" wrote:
    Thanks Paul for the info on exposure. I upgraded at last minute to v12 because they were taking 10% discount away as of Jan 1, 2019. It will be the last time. I have dxo which is my second raw editor I use depending on what I need. Their upgrade price is very reasonable. I also have the adobe photography plan. The last one I have is luminar which came with the 5 day deal I do every year. The upgrade to vs3 was free. I have not tried luminar yet.
    I will now look at alien exposure to see if it can replace dxo and capture one.


    It looks like you have everything covered in terms of software. I did the same thing with CO V12. I purchased the Gucci software with the 10% discount. I'd like to get your impressions of DxO. I just couldn't get into their workflow or I would have switched to it. Let me know what your impressions are for Exposure.
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  • richard neal
    [quote="NNN635018233259472077" wrote:
    [quote="Diggedy" wrote:
    I have tried many of the other editors lately too but I still prefer Capture 1. Im usually the sort of person who always pays for software upgrades, I even logged in to my account ready to upgrade and stopped short at the price. There just arent enough features to justify the increase so im sticking with version 11.

    Whats sad about this is, C1 make the upgrade price even bigger if you are upgrading from an earlier version so it means by staying with 11, im likely going to be faced with a huge upgrade price when a version appears that is worth buying. I, like many others likely came here to avoid adobe subscription models, so that isnt going to be an option going forward and then sooner or later ill have a camera that isnt supported by version 11 and at that point ill end up going elsewhere.

    C1 need to stop taking tips from the apple play book. Increasing the price for incremental updates only works for a short while, eventually you will lose your customer base


    I would seriously consider Exposure X4. I have been testing it extensively and I think it will replace CO eventually. I'm kicking myself for upgrading, but I'll definitely look at Exposure again at the end of the year. I don't need two converters. The Gucci pricing of CO is going to be out of reach for most of us. I think they are marketing for the uber high end photographers and not the meat and potatoes type like myself. The Exposure IQ is very close to CO and the tool set is really good and it includes lots of filters. I couldn't believe some of the pricing on their upgrade page. I haven't seen prices like that since Adobe was charging mega bucks for PS back in the day. Now you can get PS and LR for the same price as Netflix's.

    The other software I'm keeping a close eye in Luminar. It's not prime time yet, but they are listening to their user base and I suspect that they will improve it this year. It gets a lot of good press for the cost, but it is not a serious production tool yet.

    Hope this helps.

    Paul


    I am currently in the middle of the exposure trial. I tried re-editing some wedding photos from last year and I was impressed but then I tried to edit a few photos of me and the family over christmas with bright red christmas clothes on and it just seemed to oversaturate them. I couldnt seem to get the saturation right and keep everything else looking the same. I will likely try the trial again on my other laptop as I really want to make it work, it seemed to tick every box and when used in conjunction with affinity it covered all my needs

    Ive got some more family portraits to do tomorrow (my family) so ive got time to play with it, hopefully it will work out
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  • Ian Wilson
    Moderator
    Top Commenter
    I had a brief look at an intro video for Exposure as it had been mentioned here. It seemed to me that it was very much for the kind of user who’d like loads of presets to choose from as a starting point. Not convinced it’s what I’d like. Also, who are Alien Skin? Will they still be around in, say, 5 years’ time?

    Ian
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  • SFA
    Diggedy,

    I'm assuming you are working with RAW files.

    If you have not already tried to do your own thing with the Base Characteristics tool then I highly recommend that you do.

    It depends, perhaps, upon which camera you are using but try something like this.

    Set the base Curve to "Linear Response".

    Check the White Balance - ideally against something in the image that is known "mid grey" but if nothing is viable try white and then black as alternatives.

    In the Exposure tool REDUCE the Contrast a bit (experiment) and increase the saturation a bit (or a lot - experiment).

    In Preferences set the Levels tool to work by Colour Channel as default and then in the levels tool use the Auto option. Be sure to do this in the Tool and use the "A" icon.

    Play with those settings until you get the beginnings of a balance that appeals to you (It may be immediate, it may not. There are a lot of possible variables in there, especially White Balance baselines.)

    If you have extremes of exposure in an image working with this sort of tool set, use the HDR slider to light darks and dig detail out of lights and dark areas should you have some.

    That gives you a starting point from which to choose how you wish to see the image progress.

    If you want to you can always go back and change the initial "development" of the RAW file at any time.

    If you identify a Base group of settings that give you a combination that you would be likely to re-use - save it as a style to help you quickly reach a good starting point for future images.

    HTH.


    Grant
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