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Windows 7 x64 Color Management

Persio DeLuca Filho
Gentlemen,
I have recently updated to Windows 7 x64 and CO 5.0.2. My monitor is calibrated.
I have noticed a few characteristics which I can not understand and would appreciate your comments:
1. The main Capture One display reflects the color characteristics of the thumbnails in the Browser which in turn reflect the characteristics of the ICC Profile selected in the Process Recipe tab.
2. This behavior forces me to select the ICC Profile in Process Recipe equal to the ICC Profile selected for my Display in Windows Color Management aplet.
3. This "sounds" strange to me. What if I wanted to output in Adobe RGB and my display is set to sRGB in Windows? I would be working on a fully distorted image in the main CO screen!!!
4. I am sure I missed something along the way. Please show me the way.
Thank you,
Persio.
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  • Paul Steunebrink
    What happened to your monitor calibration? Is a profile created? Is the profile installed and in use by Windows for the monitor?

    From your initial post it is very difficult for me to give any troubleshooting directions because it is a kind of confusing. Sorry for that.
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  • Persio DeLuca Filho
    Gentlemen,
    I am sorry for the confusing post. No excuse but I guess I was too tired.
    I now understand how Color Management in Windows 7 is working.

    I just noticed a small glitch in version 5.0.2 when compared to 5.0.1.
    In version 5.0.2, when you switch the ICC Profile in Process Recipe, the change is immediately reflected on the thumbnails but not on the main image (as was done in version 5.0.1).
    Phase One will certainly address this in a future maintenance release.

    Thanks,
    Persio.
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  • Paul Steunebrink
    [quote="Persio1" wrote:
    ...
    I now understand how Color Management in Windows 7 is working.

    You're one of the happy few... 😉

    Windows Vista & 7 color management issues surface here regularly. We can all learn from that. So if you mind sharing your discoveries feel welcome to do.
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  • Persio DeLuca Filho
    Gentlemen,
    I will report on my experience with Windows 7 Color Management
    Let me start with a few disclaimers.
    * I am not a professional photographer.
    * I have not studied all possibilities of Windows Color Management.
    * I will base my comments on the software tools I use.

    My basic photography tool set includes:
    * Windows 7 x64
    * Capture One version 5.0.2
    * Qimage version 2010.107 - for printing
    * BreezeBrowser version 2.13 - image browsing, renaming, organizing, etc.

    Setting up Color Management in Windows 7.
    * I set my monitor (Sharp LCD) to sRGB display mode using the monitor buttons
    * I decided to calibrate my monitor using the simple procedure available in Windows Color Management: Color Management/Advanced/Calibrate Display. This procedure generates an ICC profile, which is named by Windows (CalibratedDisplayProfile-1.icc), and used by Windows as the default profile for the Display device - refer to: Color Management/Devices/select Display in the drop-down menu and confirm the default profile in the box below.
    * I did not bother with anything else in Windows Color Management because my other applications have their own color management setups.
    * So I went on to setup BreezeBrowser and Qimage to use the CalibratedDisplayProfile-1 generated above as their monitor profile. For printing both Qimage and BreezeBrowser are setup to use my standard printer profile.

    Conclusion thus far:
    * Using the above setup, images processed by CO look the same in BreezeBrowser and in Qimage and print very accurately by Qimage (I tested both Adobe RGB and sRGB ICC Profiles in Process Recipe, and CR2 and JPG test images).
    * I presume this will also be true for Photoshop users.

    Remaining questions to be answered:
    * It is not clear to me how CO interacts with Windows 7 color management. My preliminary conclusion is that it does not.
    * The following quote was taken from CO User Guide:
    "Color is dealt with in two ways in Capture One; internally and for output.
    Internally, Capture One works in a very large color space, similar to
    that captured by camera sensors." and for output it is governed by the ICC Profile setup in Process Recipe.
    * Another conclusion, based on the above, and for maximum color fidelity between your CO work screen and the final output, is that one should work in CO with ICC Profile in Process Recipe set to the same ICC profile used as the basis for the calibrated Windows profile (CalibratedDisplayProfile-1), which in my case was "sRGB" and select the ICC Profile to be included in the output file as a last step prior to processing the file.
    * This sounds very awkward and it is contrary to what is recommended on page 45 of CO User Guide "...please note that colors might in fact change quiet a lot between different color spaces, therefore it is recommended to do your editing in the color space that you actually want to output to".
    * I am sure we need knowledgeable input to clarify this.

    A bug that needs to be corrected (CO version 5.0.2).
    * The CO main image does not get automatically updated when switching ICC Profiles in Process Recipe AND when image zoom (in the slider) is below 33%. When image zoom is set to 33% or larger the image reflects the ICC Profile selection automatically.

    I apologize for the long post and hope to have made my comments clear.
    Persio.
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  • Paul Steunebrink
    Persio,
    First, thanks for the write up. Second, regarding your 'remaining questions to be answered' section, I think you make some interesting observations. Main issue is whether Capture One 5 does take Windows Color Management into account.

    Experience differ here on the forum since Vista came to market. From a similar setup (Win7 x64, CO 5.0.1, hardware calibrated Eizo monitor) I can testify the CO5 does take color management into account where the monitor profile is concerned. Note that it is important to setup CO5 correctly in that you should set the Proof Profile to Selected Recipe.

    That said, Windows color management is not that straightforward anymore since the XP-days. Microsoft introduced WCS (goodbye ICM) introduced in Vista introduced a lot of confusion (but is providing backwards ICM support still). Also, v4 profiles were introduced. Maybe maybe maybe CO5 still relies on ICM including WCS profile with ICM built-in. And maybe maybe if you do color management with WCS (as you did) no ICM profile is in it. Here ends my knowledge, so I must stop before talking nonsense but there is more to investigate.

    Sidebar note: I calibrated my screen with a spectrophotometer and Eizo software logged in as Administrator. I found that as User01 I did not had the calibration since calibration has become a user-related setting in Win7 (and Vista, I think). Fortunately there is an advanced setting to apply the calibration computer-wide.
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  • Persio DeLuca Filho
    Paul,
    Thank you for your comments.
    Please help me find "Proof Profile". It should be under the View menu but it is not!
    I use CO version 5.0.2 but NOT the Professional Edition. Is Proof Profile available at all in CO?
    Thanks,
    Persio.
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  • Paul Steunebrink
    [quote="Persio1" wrote:
    Paul,
    Thank you for your comments.
    Please help me find "Proof Profile". It should be under the View menu but it is not!
    I use CO version 5.0.2 but NOT the Professional Edition. Is Proof Profile available at all in CO?
    Thanks,
    Persio.

    It is in Pro/DB versions only. In the standard version it should (internally) be set accordingly.
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  • Persio DeLuca Filho
    Paul,
    Thanks for the clarification.

    When you say that in the standard version it should internally be set accordingly, I understand that the Viewer profile (Proof Profile) is set automatically equal to the Process Recipe ICC Profile. This confirms what I have tested. When I change the Process Recipe the image in the Viewer changes accordingly.

    The problem with this is concept is that the Viewer will not display a good representation of the image when the Windows Display Profile is set to sRGB and the Process Recipe Profile is set to Adobe RGB (or any other differing option).

    Unless Phase One comes in with different recommendations, I believe the best option for CO users is to make sure that the ICC Profile in Process Recipe matches the Windows Display Profile during image adjustment and change it, as necessary, just before processing the file.

    Maybe another consideration would be to include the Proof Profile feature for CO standard users, assuming Proof Profile would govern the Viewer and could be matched to Windows Display Profile, and the Process Recipe ICC Profile used to simply be included in the output file.

    I would really like to hear Phase One comments on this.

    Regards,
    Persio.
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  • Paul Steunebrink
    [quote="Persio1" wrote:
    ..
    The problem with this is concept is that the Viewer will not display a good representation of the image when the Windows Display Profile is set to sRGB and the Process Recipe Profile is set to Adobe RGB (or any other differing option).

    This is a misunderstanding re. the concept of color management and how it is implemented in an application like Capture One (an many others). You forget that Capture One like any color managed application runs with a large (wide gamut) working space internally. This basically means that what you see on screen is your image based on your output profile (say AdobeRGB) rendered with the monitor profile (say sRGB). The process is even more complex because the input profile is taken into account as well (representing the camera's color space).

    To summarize, the internal working space is at the heart of the machine, with the camera profile for input, output working space for output and the monitor working space for viewing.
    The rendering on screen can be influenced by selecting a different rendering intent, with Perceptual as the default option, which is most common used for photographic images (again Pro/DB only, in standard probably Perceptual by default, not selectable).

    This also explains that when the monitor profile is not taken into account correctly, you do not make the correct adjustments in the Viewer.
    Recommendation: do NOT use the monitor profile for output.

    Hope this helps.
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