C1 8.x Engine - Highlights recovery very different from v7.x
So when trying out new release I upgraded the engine in Base Characteristics in few of my images (created variants for that so I still have older ones) I noticed a REALLY big difference in rendering of some of those images. Few looks are drastically changed. Especially with images I used Highlight tool in HDR tab.
The newer engine 8 seems to recover less detail than engine 7. I can't seem to reproduce the (IMHO nicer) looking image I could do in C1 7. Too bad you can't just switch engines once you upgraded.
Some images I like better in Engine 8 but for my style and taste I miss some looks from Engine 7.
Any thoughts?
The newer engine 8 seems to recover less detail than engine 7. I can't seem to reproduce the (IMHO nicer) looking image I could do in C1 7. Too bad you can't just switch engines once you upgraded.
Some images I like better in Engine 8 but for my style and taste I miss some looks from Engine 7.
Any thoughts?
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Exactly the same thought here. The highlight recovery is about 1/3 worse than in engine 7. Really a big step back and I hope that there will be a fix for this soon. 0 -
Pretty disappointing. I really like the highlight recovery tool from 7. To me it's a substantial flaw. 0 -
[quote="NN635142464227298396UL" wrote:
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Some images I like better in Engine 8 but for my style and taste I miss some looks from Engine 7.
Any thoughts?
What you could do is setting the default processing engine in CO8 to Engine 7. Go to Preferences > Image.
This gives you the opportunity to upgrade an image's engine to Engine 8 any time from Base Characteristics.0 -
If you want to have more power, you can always create (several even) an adjustment layer, choose invert mask/fill mask, and increase the Highlight slider there. That will add even more highlight recovery to the image, and can even be applied locally. 0 -
That's a work-around for a fault, Christian - but it's not the answer.
I think we would all agree that we should never see a given function go backwards in terms of performance, from one version to a new - and promised-to-be-better - version.0 -
[quote="Paul_Steunebrink" wrote:
What you could do is setting the default processing engine in CO8 to Engine 7. Go to Preferences > Image.
This gives you the opportunity to upgrade an image's engine to Engine 8 any time from Base Characteristics.
But then we lose the advantages on a given image that might come from the 8 engine, if you need 7's highlight recovery, and that's not really a solution either.
What's needed is the same highlights performance in 8 that we get in 7.
Or better, given that it's is what we were promised:With Capture One Pro 8, you can bring out even more detail in highlights and shadows – even in over- or underexposed images. The improved HDR tool helps you perfect high-contrast scenes by recovering blown-out highlights and opening up dark shadows, all from one single capture.
I fully accept Christian's comments elsewhere that all software - especially "new" software - has its teething troubles, but I hold Phase One to its public promises.0 -
My experience with the highlight recovery tool is that it is much improved. In v7, reducing blown highlights in a sunlit background caused noticeable flattening of midtone detail in faces (spot-metered for subject). In version 8, blown background highlights are dealt with *assuming Phase haven't recalibrated the highlight warning indicator* whilst there is no interference with the mid-tones. Additionally, obvious specular highlights - e.g. the sun glinting off a resin-coated stone driveway - were completely lost in v7 yet are maintained in v8 despite the highlight recovery tool being set to 50 points or higher.
YMMV but for me, the highlight recovery tool of v7 destroyed my mid-tones and had me looking around for an alternative for my people shots. Version 8 puts C1Pro squarely back in my workflow.
Best
Neil
P.S. please someone tell me how I can have my real name and location in my profile rather than a "serial" number? I've seen this mentioned before but I can't find the solution now. Thanks.0 -
[quote="NN635338752454027400UL" wrote:
My experience with the highlight recovery tool is that it is much improved. In v7, reducing blown highlights in a sunlit background caused noticeable flattening of midtone detail in faces (spot-metered for subject). In version 8, blown background highlights are dealt with *assuming Phase haven't recalibrated the highlight warning indicator* whilst there is no interference with the mid-tones. Additionally, obvious specular highlights - e.g. the sun glinting off a resin-coated stone driveway - were completely lost in v7 yet are maintained in v8 despite the highlight recovery tool being set to 50 points or higher.
YMMV but for me, the highlight recovery tool of v7 destroyed my mid-tones and had me looking around for an alternative for my people shots. Version 8 puts C1Pro squarely back in my workflow.
Absolutely agree on this. The v7 shadows/highlights tool was a weak point, because as you say the highlight slider flattened the midtones and took the "bite" out of images, and the shadows tool did not only open up the shadows, but introduced an often garish saturation in colors in the lifted areas.
Whatever the shortcomings of the new v8 shadows/highlights tool, it is much much better and gives much much more natural looking results than v7 or before. It is in fact the first really good HDR tool in CO1. As far it not being effective enough: I don't feel this way myself, as the modern digital sensors allow perfectly for moderate exposure, while overexposure can lead to all sorts of issues as purple fringing etc., that are much harder to fix than simply dialing in some exposure compensation.
Chris0 -
Thanks ChrisM for reminding me about something: I'm sure there was a purple fringing option in the Lens Correction for my Leica DG Summilux 25 in C1Pro 7 but there is not in C1Pro 8.
Best//Neil0 -
[quote="NN635338752454027400UL" wrote:
Thanks ChrisM for reminding me about something: I'm sure there was a purple fringing option in the Lens Correction for my Leica DG Summilux 25 in C1Pro 7 but there is not in C1Pro 8.
Best//Neil
Neil, that's correct, it's a seperate tool now, and if you saved the v7 workspace, you will have to load the tool in the lens tab. The new seperate tool has a slider to adjust the amount of defringing.
Chris0 -
Ah, thanks, Chris, I'll look into that!
Best
Neil0 -
I have that same lens. I find C1P7 and now C1P8 both do extremely poorly in correcting CA and fringing compared to Lightroom and even Photo Ninja. Particularly poorly with that lens. I had some examples that I sent to the Image Professor on his blog. How do you find it? [quote="NN635338752454027400UL" wrote:
Thanks ChrisM for reminding me about something: I'm sure there was a purple fringing option in the Lens Correction for my Leica DG Summilux 25 in C1Pro 7 but there is not in C1Pro 8.
Best//Neil0 -
[quote="NN635338752454027400UL" wrote:
My experience with the highlight recovery tool is that it is much improved. In v7, reducing blown highlights in a sunlit background caused noticeable flattening of midtone detail in faces (spot-metered for subject). In version 8, blown background highlights are dealt with *assuming Phase haven't recalibrated the highlight warning indicator* whilst there is no interference with the mid-tones.
Yep, I agree that the newer HR is better (more "Lightroom-like", actually) at maintaining the overall tonality of the image, and I'm very grateful for that, but there's less detail recovery from the new version of the tool. At least that seems to be what some of us are seeing.
In the interests of full disclosure, I'm particularly focused (pun intended) on the quality of highlight recovery in a converter, because of the nature of the subjects I shoot and the lack of control I have over the light I shoot in: my comments aren't based on a casual interest in highlight recovery, but on a specific reliance on it.
I'm experienced in working with highlights too, and this new approach from Capture One 8 is rather worrying.
Now it may simply be that I need to use it in a different way to what I'm used to in Capture One, and I continue to experiment with that in that in mind. But so far I'm less than convinced that version 8 is an "improvement" here.0 -
[quote="ChrisM" wrote:
while overexposure can lead to all sorts of issues as purple fringing etc., that are much harder to fix than simply dialing in some exposure compensation.
Chris, this (from this) is what a good converter's highlight recovery is capable of.
As it happens, I converted this file in Photo Ninja (with the recovery topped up" in PS, as per my usual - well-sorted - highlight recovery workflow), but Lightroom and Capture One 7 are both able to provide a starting point that can result in the same level of recovery.
So far, I'm not convinced the same can be said of 8, and that's a worry.0 -
I've also noticed that highlight recovery seems worse in 8. Less detail seems to be recovered. That's my finding anyway.
I did a quick comparison here. Each image has identical settings, Highlights 100, Shadows 50. The C1P8 image may initially seem more pleasing but that's because the image is more contrasty as the highlights slider doesn't appear to have been as effective as the image processed in 7. I've zoomed in to 100% on these images and I can see more detail retention in areas approaching clipping (in the clouds) in 7. In 8, these same areas appear a little blown and lacking in any detail.
What do others think? Maybe there's something else affecting this result? They both have the same curve profile and camera profile 😕
What's also interesting is the file size of the 7 file is slightly larger than 8. Both processed JPEGs at 100%.0 -
[quote="Keith Reeder" wrote:
[quote="ChrisM" wrote:
while overexposure can lead to all sorts of issues as purple fringing etc., that are much harder to fix than simply dialing in some exposure compensation.
Chris, this (from this) is what a good converter's highlight recovery is capable of.
As it happens, I converted this file in Photo Ninja (with the recovery topped up" in PS, as per my usual - well-sorted - highlight recovery workflow), but Lightroom and Capture One 7 are both able to provide a starting point that can result in the same level of recovery.
So far, I'm not convinced the same can be said of 8, and that's a worry.
well, photoninja looks promising at the fist look but imho it only works in 1 of 1000 images even in your sample you see the unpleasing rough transion in the recovered aera, something jim christian is aware of and in most cases it introduces ugly color casts. c1 is not pefect but produces natural and smooth results wich i prefer. i too think highlight recovery in c1 8 is an big improvment over c1 7 and the shifted midtones0 -
[quote="Horseoncowboy " wrote:
well, photoninja looks promising at the fist look but imho it only works in 1 of 1000 images
I've used it since release, and "1 in 1000" is selling it rather short...even in your sample you see the unpleasing rough transion in the recovered aera
I can't - and I've seen this image on more than ten different monitors. In fact I think the transitional area is very well handled. What are you seeing?something jim christian is aware of and in most cases it introduces ugly color casts.
The colour cast issue is old news - it was fixed in the last release, and has been a non-issue for a long time.c1 is not pefect but produces natural and smooth results wich i prefer. i too think highlight recovery in c1 8 is an big improvment over c1 7 and the shifted midtones
But it's not recovering highlight detail as well as it did in 7 - this is a different issue, unrelated to liking the improvement in the midtones adjustment.0 -
Regarding "burned" skies, C1 V8 and V7 are definitely not the best. They both tend to produce "brownish" unnatural colors. Photo Ninja, Iridient Developer and even LR produce better results. Too bad, but it's up to us photographers to avoid burned areas when we shoot 😉
John0 -
[quote="Jean cg" wrote:
but it's up to us photographers to avoid burned areas when we shoot
Which is great - if you're shooting something over which you have control. Shooting wildlife (birds, primarily), and sport, I have no control over the subject matter or the light.
Another worry: I'm seeing magenta "false colours" in recovered highlights - thought we'd seen the last of that...
(Oh, and Capture One 8 hung up again when I was processing that - needed yet another trip to Windows Task Manager. I've used Task Manager more in the last couple of days, on version 8, than I have in the rest of the year on all the other programs on my PC put together).0 -
[quote="chipbutty" wrote:
I have that same lens. I find C1P7 and now C1P8 both do extremely poorly in correcting CA and fringing compared to Lightroom and even Photo Ninja. Particularly poorly with that lens. I had some examples that I sent to the Image Professor on his blog. How do you find it?
I agree with you but I'm not satisfied with any software's correction of this lens. I read a lot of reviews about it and nowhere did I read about the fringing problems. I didn't buy the Voigtlander 25 mm precisely because it wasn't usable at f0.95 for this reason, which made it pointless.
What body are you using it on? I read a few days ago, but I can't remember where, that the purple fringing is a known issue of Panasonic lenses on Olympus bodies, I guess because Olympus are not correcting for it in camera (so we buy their lenses instead).
I'm using the advanced colour tool to correct for the magenta & green fringing, which works, but it would be great if I didn't have to bother. I shoot the 12-40 wide-open all the time with no fringing, but obviously the f2.8 maximum is a limitation. I was looking at the Leica Nocticron 42.5 but my experience with the Summilux are making me think twice.
As for Photoninja. Hmm. Last time I tried it, it put a magenta cast on recovered highlights. Apparently I see from this thread that it's fixed now so I might give it another try. Unlike Keith, I don't do wildlife shots and generally can meter for my subject, so lack of perceived detail in the highlights matters less to me than accurate mid-tones.
Best
Neil0 -
@keith, PN is not able to blend recovered detail with full blown areas in a smooth and natural way ( look at the chest of your bird sample ) i rather prefer less recovery strength but smooth transitions. i have played a lot with PN but using c1 with a linear curve always gave me better results with almost the same amount of recovered information. it also depends very much on the camera you use. while canon raw files work rather acceptable images rendered from a sony a7r raw are unusable ! 0 -
I'll put in my two cents here...
The image presented by ChipBuddy all the same actual details are there in both images, but the Capture One 7 images everything is darker... this also makes the mid tones flatter and just a bit unnatural. It has much more of that "HDR" look. The Capture One 8 image still has the same highlights (based on the jpegs) but because the recovery is better focused on the actual blown out highlights the rest of the contrast looks much more natural and less like the highlights had to be recovered.
One of the test files I have used for years to illustrate this tool is a good example. In Capture One 6 full highlight recovery still leaves a lot of tones lost and terrible mid tones, Capture One recovers substantially more information, though not all and producers significantly better, but not perfect mid tones. Capture One 8 recovers the highlights equally well, certainly no loss of recovery, BUT the mid tones now look significantly better. Capture One 7 wasn't recovering more highlights compared to 8, it was pulling down more mid tones that didn't need any recovery which makes it look like it has a bigger effect.
I think if you like the HDR look then then the CO8 recovery is step backwards, but if you are looking to bring the blown out highlights back in range without having to do extra work to make the image look nice then CO8 is significantly improved. I know for the type of shooting I do and the type of jobs I used to work on as a digital tech, the CO8 recovery is a huge step forward for productivity. Of course tastes vary.
My suggestion is that if you don't like the current effect do two things:
1. As christian said you can add a new layer of recovery... therefore make a layer, fill it with mask and set a recovery value around 50% or more. Save it as a Style. When you need more highlight recovery apply the style and then adjust the slider as necessary. This would be a fairly quick way to extend the range and give you more recovery than either program can do on its own.
2. If you have files that show less details being recovered in the actual blown out areas send them to us in a support case and we can bring them before the image core team. Also if you get pink highlights please send them to as well since that is usually a bug specific to an individual raw type that we can correct.0 -
Also got a magenta "glory" around a highly blown out sun, filed a support case, wanted to share the answer I got.
The assumption is that the color anomaly is caused by a non-standard ISO setting (I usually shot with ISOs set to x times 160, trying to exploit an allegedly low-noise mode of my 50D). The dev team's going to look into that.
Best wishes,
Andras0 -
[quote="Horseoncowboy " wrote:
@keith, PN is not able to blend recovered detail with full blown areas in a smooth and natural way ( look at the chest of your bird sample )
Still not seeing what you're seeing, I'm afraid.
Not to worry - we're here to discuss Capture One, not Photo Ninja.0 -
[quote="Jon" wrote:
II think if you like the HDR look then then the CO8 recovery is step backwards, but if you are looking to bring the blown out highlights back in range without having to do extra work to make the image look nice then CO8 is significantly improved.
Oh, I agree that a natural look is preferable, Jon - HDR (even though Phase One has chosen to name the tool group in exactly this way! 😉) is the last thing I want to see.
If magenta highlights become problematic, I'll push some files Phase One's way - fortunately, the image I posted above is from a camera I'm not using any more (it's from my old 7D), and - so far - I'm not seeing it in my current camera's conversions.
I'm flip-flopping about the overall quality of the HR: I've just done some very challenging files - Gannets (pure white birds) in bright overhead sunshine, and they look great, with transitions looking really good, and detail retained very well.0 -
I do agree with much of that Jon. The mid tones are far less affected in 8 and images do look more natural. Actually in some images highlight detail looks better in 8 but I can detect a slight loss of highlight detail in some images in 8 compared to 7. [quote="Jon" wrote:
I'll put in my two cents here...
The image presented by ChipBuddy all the same actual details are there in both images, but the Capture One 7 images everything is darker... this also makes the mid tones flatter and just a bit unnatural. It has much more of that "HDR" look. The Capture One 8 image still has the same highlights (based on the jpegs) but because the recovery is better focused on the actual blown out highlights the rest of the contrast looks much more natural and less like the highlights had to be recovered.
One of the test files I have used for years to illustrate this tool is a good example. In Capture One 6 full highlight recovery still leaves a lot of tones lost and terrible mid tones, Capture One recovers substantially more information, though not all and producers significantly better, but not perfect mid tones. Capture One 8 recovers the highlights equally well, certainly no loss of recovery, BUT the mid tones now look significantly better. Capture One 7 wasn't recovering more highlights compared to 8, it was pulling down more mid tones that didn't need any recovery which makes it look like it has a bigger effect.
I think if you like the HDR look then then the CO8 recovery is step backwards, but if you are looking to bring the blown out highlights back in range without having to do extra work to make the image look nice then CO8 is significantly improved. I know for the type of shooting I do and the type of jobs I used to work on as a digital tech, the CO8 recovery is a huge step forward for productivity. Of course tastes vary.
My suggestion is that if you don't like the current effect do two things:
1. As christian said you can add a new layer of recovery... therefore make a layer, fill it with mask and set a recovery value around 50% or more. Save it as a Style. When you need more highlight recovery apply the style and then adjust the slider as necessary. This would be a fairly quick way to extend the range and give you more recovery than either program can do on its own.
2. If you have files that show less details being recovered in the actual blown out areas send them to us in a support case and we can bring them before the image core team. Also if you get pink highlights please send them to as well since that is usually a bug specific to an individual raw type that we can correct.0 -
This describes my impression regarding its behavior very well. I like the less affected mid tones as well as the more natural look in general - but sometimes I wish the slider would go further to a value up to 150, just to get a bit more out of the photo. [quote="Jon" wrote:
I'll put in my two cents here...
The image presented by ChipBuddy all the same actual details are there in both images, but the Capture One 7 images everything is darker... this also makes the mid tones flatter and just a bit unnatural. It has much more of that "HDR" look. The Capture One 8 image still has the same highlights (based on the jpegs) but because the recovery is better focused on the actual blown out highlights the rest of the contrast looks much more natural and less like the highlights had to be recovered.
One of the test files I have used for years to illustrate this tool is a good example. In Capture One 6 full highlight recovery still leaves a lot of tones lost and terrible mid tones, Capture One recovers substantially more information, though not all and producers significantly better, but not perfect mid tones. Capture One 8 recovers the highlights equally well, certainly no loss of recovery, BUT the mid tones now look significantly better. Capture One 7 wasn't recovering more highlights compared to 8, it was pulling down more mid tones that didn't need any recovery which makes it look like it has a bigger effect.
I think if you like the HDR look then then the CO8 recovery is step backwards, but if you are looking to bring the blown out highlights back in range without having to do extra work to make the image look nice then CO8 is significantly improved. I know for the type of shooting I do and the type of jobs I used to work on as a digital tech, the CO8 recovery is a huge step forward for productivity. Of course tastes vary.
My suggestion is that if you don't like the current effect do two things:
1. As christian said you can add a new layer of recovery... therefore make a layer, fill it with mask and set a recovery value around 50% or more. Save it as a Style. When you need more highlight recovery apply the style and then adjust the slider as necessary. This would be a fairly quick way to extend the range and give you more recovery than either program can do on its own.
2. If you have files that show less details being recovered in the actual blown out areas send them to us in a support case and we can bring them before the image core team. Also if you get pink highlights please send them to as well since that is usually a bug specific to an individual raw type that we can correct.0 -
I like the less affected mid tones as well as the more natural look in general - but sometimes I wish the slider would go further to a value up to 150, just to get a bit more out of the photo.
You can do this now. Add an adjustment layer in Local settings, invert mask, then putting Highlights to 50 should give you 150 if you already have the global highlights at 100.0 -
After a more detailed view, the difference is not that much, but the C7 image tends to get way more darker, which gives an impression of much better highlight recovery than there actually is.
I still think they should have allowed to go all "overdrive" like they allow with all the other settings (any really uses 100% saturation? but it is good to have it)
Here is a simple compare between C7 and C8. Especially look at the guy on the left side of the image, C7 has a very visible "Halo" around the edge, which C8 does not have. C8 sky is much more brighter, but that is fixable with blue b/w slider, or with another layer and more Highlight recovery there (that trick works pretty well actually). All the other highlights seem to be as good recovered as with C7.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/mxd6im2js4xt ... C7_HDR.jpg
I still wished there would be a, "go 150%" slider too, like you go half you go ok, everything beyond that is just insane, but allowed.
As usual, if you upgrade Process Engines be aware that it will change the way the image is rendered.0
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