"You should submit a feature request or bug report"
I just want to share something with people who haven't yet tried to submit a feature request or bug report to Phase One. And yes, there is a question for the community at the end.
You'll hear on these forums that one method of getting action when you have trouble using the software is to submit to Phase One through the tech support site. I did that a couple years ago and I want to share with you the kind of dialog you're likely to get from the developer of this software (I have not added or deleted anything from this conversation):
Me:
PO:
Me:
PO:
Me:
PO:
Me:
PO:
Granted, some of the issues in that version of the software have since been addressed in v10, but the feature I asked for is still absent. This is absolutely ridiculous. Almost ALL of this could be fixed by allowing the software to create a variant stack of all variants including those round-tripped to third-party software. And while they're at it, let me put other images into that same variant stack. I KNOW this isn't impossible, but for some reason, Phase One doesn't seem to think it's a feature users want.
Here's my question to you: Am I missing something? Is there a way to do this? Or maybe there is a better, easier way to find the original version of an image once I've left the Folder view? What if that file doesn't have a keyword attached and I don't know any other information that I could use to otherwise search for the file in the catalog? As I told PO Support above, I can't possibly be expected to manually search through every variant on my machine looking for one image.
You'll hear on these forums that one method of getting action when you have trouble using the software is to submit to Phase One through the tech support site. I did that a couple years ago and I want to share with you the kind of dialog you're likely to get from the developer of this software (I have not added or deleted anything from this conversation):
Me:
This is a feature request:
Please add the ability to edit images in external editors from Smart Albums.
If I want to send an image out to Silver Efex Pro, I should be able to do that from any album. This seems like a glaring oversight given this can be done from virtually every other album type. And since the "Show Parent Folder in Library" command shows only the Smart Album I'm already in (it's based on a global search for specific keywords), there is no way for me to quickly return to a folder or album from which I can use the "Edit With ..." command.
PO:
Hello Philip, I will put foward your request but I don not forsee this being possible. The smart albums are virtual.
Best Regards,
Phase ONe support
Me:
So what about the other issue of not being able to easily find the image in its "non-virtual" folder location?
PO:
I am not sure what you mean...can you explain further
Me:
The Smart Album uses a catalog-wide search for a specific keyword. When I attempt to use the "Edit With ..." command, I get the warning dialog that explains why I cannot use this command from a Smart Album or the Trash. Unfortunately, it doesn't tell me how I can get to the album or folder that contains the image I'm trying to edit, nor is there any obvious way for me to get back to said folder. When I use the "Show Parent Folder in Library" command, it shows me only the same Smart Folder I'm already in. Since the Info tab doesn't show the catalog hierarchy for the image, and since the image name gives me no clue as to its location in the catalog, I have no way to find the image location in the catalog other than to painstakingly search manually through folders and albums until I find its location. Seeing as how I have 90,000 variants, I don't see this as an acceptable option. Please tell me there's an easy way to do this.
PO:
Hello Philip, I am not sure what the issue is at this point. No matter what album you are in you can filter by keywords in the library tool.
Thank you,
Phase One Support
Me:
Apple had this figured out TEN YEARS AGO.
I realize that a Smart Album is "virtual." I realize that I can filter the contents of any album with keywords. What I want is to be able to use the "Edit With ..." command on an image inside a Smart Album. (This is the command that allows me to use a third-party application to edit files that are contained in my C1 catalog without having to export those files and then re-import them after editing in the third-party software.)
What I think you're telling me is that, because the Smart Album is virtual and thus draws its contents from other albums based on search criteria, I cannot use the "Edit With ..." command because that would create a new file and that new file cannot be contained directly inside a Smart Album.
That's fine. I understand that. But what I don't understand is why C1 can't just create a new file that is located inside the folder of the original variant. Since the "Edit With ..." command creates a new file that may or may not contain identical data as the original variant, it can, at least momentarily, exist in the Smart Album until the round-trip to the third-party application is complete. Once back in C1, the Smart Album criteria may very well expel the new image, but it will still exist in the folder or album with the original variant.
Has no one at Phase One ever used Aperture? Since Apple last year discontinued development and support of the software, I would think Phase One would have IMMEDIATELY started copying all the best features in an effort to win new support from former Aperture users who now are left to find a replacement for their beloved software.
PO:
Yes, that is what I am telling you. I will add your request for edit with command from smart album. Yes we have a system for getting Aperture catalogs into CO. Here is what can be transferred. https://www.phaseone.com/en/Search/Arti ... nguageid=1
Best Regards,
Phase One Support
Granted, some of the issues in that version of the software have since been addressed in v10, but the feature I asked for is still absent. This is absolutely ridiculous. Almost ALL of this could be fixed by allowing the software to create a variant stack of all variants including those round-tripped to third-party software. And while they're at it, let me put other images into that same variant stack. I KNOW this isn't impossible, but for some reason, Phase One doesn't seem to think it's a feature users want.
Here's my question to you: Am I missing something? Is there a way to do this? Or maybe there is a better, easier way to find the original version of an image once I've left the Folder view? What if that file doesn't have a keyword attached and I don't know any other information that I could use to otherwise search for the file in the catalog? As I told PO Support above, I can't possibly be expected to manually search through every variant on my machine looking for one image.
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Yes you should be able to 'edit > open in' an image from anywhere including smart albums (I realise you say you can't). The catalog knows where the original is so C1 should be able to create a [TIFF/JPEG] copy and send that to Silver Effects, Photoshop, Mars, where ever you want... 0 -
Classic, the person from support has absolutely no clue about what the ask is. Then cherry-picks a keyword that looks familiar and replies with a boilerplate answer from the support manual. It's so irrelevant and so bad, one could think it's an automated system doing this. 🙄 0 -
Just curious... Does this issue pertain to regular Albums (which are also virtual) or just Smart Albums?
(I don't have CO, so can't test this myself.)0 -
[quote="syncrasy" wrote:
Just curious... Does this issue pertain to regular Albums (which are also virtual) or just Smart Albums?
(I don't have CO, so can't test this myself.)
No, not regular albums, although here again is a problem: if you round-trip an image to a third party app from inside a regular album, the returned file will exist only in the album in which it was created. In other words, if you have an image in two regular albums, the newly round-tripped image will be automatically included only in the album in which it was created and if you look at the original in the other album, the round-trip file will not be visible unless you manually add it to that album.
As I said before, this would not be an issue if Capture One simply supported variant stacks with more than just the variants of a single file (and even those are only edit variants, not those created via a round-trip to an external app).0 -
[quote="PDBreske" wrote:
... if you round-trip an image to a third party app from inside a regular album, the returned file will exist only in the album in which it was created. In other words, if you have an image in two regular albums, the newly round-tripped image will be automatically included only in the album in which it was created and if you look at the original in the other album, the round-trip file will not be visible unless you manually add it to that album.
Wow. (Excuse me while I lift my jaw up off the floor.) I'm speechless. But then I've never actually used a program that creates variants or stacks. Currently I use regular Albums/Catalog Sets and 3rd party editors extensively via Media Pro. If I want a "variant" I simply create a separate file with a different name. Very old school. Obviously any edits are reflected in all Albums/Catalog Sets.[quote="PDBreske" wrote:
As I said before, this would not be an issue if Capture One simply supported variant stacks with more than just the variants of a single file (and even those are only edit variants, not those created via a round-trip to an external app).
Just so I understand... In Capture One, if you edit a raw image within CO, does it create a new file or a virtual variant? Or do you specify whether you want to create a variant or just edit the master file? In other words, if you simply edit the master raw file in CO, and that file is in multiple Albums, are you saying even the master file edits will be reflected only in the Album from which you launched the CO editor? Or are you talking about additional versions/variants (i.e., beyond the master)? Sorry for the basic question, but I'm trying to understand if a CO workflow would help me or frustrate me, particularly with regard to images in multiple Albums.0 -
[quote="syncrasy" wrote:
Just so I understand... In Capture One, if you edit a raw image within CO, does it create a new file or a virtual variant? Or do you specify whether you want to create a variant or just edit the master file? In other words, if you simply edit the master raw file in CO, and that file is in multiple Albums, are you saying even the master file edits will be reflected only in the Album from which you launched the CO editor? Or are you talking about additional versions/variants (i.e., beyond the master)? Sorry for the basic question, but I'm trying to understand if a CO workflow would help me or frustrate me, particularly with regard to images in multiple Albums.
Right now I'm importing an old Aperture library (long story), so I can't test your question directly while CO is busy, but I believe that all edit variants (those variants created in CO that have only a different set of adjustments from the original) stay with the original variant in all albums. When I get a chance, I'll run a few tests to see what happens to those variants when the original is called into albums and smart albums.0 -
[quote="PDBreske" wrote:
[quote="syncrasy" wrote:
Just so I understand... In Capture One, if you edit a raw image within CO, does it create a new file or a virtual variant? Or do you specify whether you want to create a variant or just edit the master file? In other words, if you simply edit the master raw file in CO, and that file is in multiple Albums, are you saying even the master file edits will be reflected only in the Album from which you launched the CO editor? Or are you talking about additional versions/variants (i.e., beyond the master)? Sorry for the basic question, but I'm trying to understand if a CO workflow would help me or frustrate me, particularly with regard to images in multiple Albums.
Right now I'm importing an old Aperture library (long story), so I can't test your question directly while CO is busy, but I believe that all edit variants (those variants created in CO that have only a different set of adjustments from the original) stay with the original variant in all albums. When I get a chance, I'll run a few tests to see what happens to those variants when the original is called into albums and smart albums.
Thanks. I'll be curious to hear about your results. I was actually wondering about a more simple question (nothing to do with variants): If you have an original image in three Albums, then edit the image in CO (launched from one of the Albums), will the edits be reflected in the thumbnail in all three Albums or just the Album from which you launched the image?
More to your experiment... I would expect that edit variants are treated separately in terms of Album membership. For example, if the original image and variant 1 belong to Album A and Album B, then you remove the original image from Album A, variant 1 should still have membership in Albums A and B. Is that what you will be testing?0 -
[quote="syncrasy" wrote:
Thanks. I'll be curious to hear about your results. I was actually wondering about a more simple question (nothing to do with variants): If you have an original image in three Albums, then edit the image in CO (launched from one of the Albums), will the edits be reflected in the thumbnail in all three Albums or just the Album from which you launched the image?
More to your experiment... I would expect that edit variants are treated separately in terms of Album membership. For example, if the original image and variant 1 belong to Album A and Album B, then you remove the original image from Album A, variant 1 should still have membership in Albums A and B. Is that what you will be testing?
The first question I can answer without even looking: Any edits applied to an image will be applied no matter where that image is found. Even if you have the image duplicated in dozens of folders, the adjustments made to that variant will always be applied to that variant.
I will add your other parameters to my tests when I get the chance.0 -
[quote="PDBreske" wrote:
... Even if you have the image duplicated in dozens of folders, the adjustments made to that variant will always be applied to that variant.
I'm confused by your use of the terms "duplicated" and "folder." Are you referring to physical files/folders or virtual images (variants) and virtual folders (Albums)?
In CO is a "variant" a virtual version of the original (managed by the database/XML sidecar file) or a physical file?
I wouldn't expect any edit to an image, whether original or variant, to trickle over to duplicated copies of physical files.0 -
In CO /everything/ is a virtual version of the original. Just as any RAW converter, CO applies its algorithms to show you its interpretation of the RAW data contained in the original file, and moreover it never ever modifies an original file. Ever. You can't even change the date of capture from within CO. 0 -
[quote="syncrasy" wrote:
I'm confused by your use of the terms "duplicated" and "folder." Are you referring to physical files/folders or virtual images (variants) and virtual folders (Albums)?
In CO is a "variant" a virtual version of the original (managed by the database/XML sidecar file) or a physical file?
I wouldn't expect any edit to an image, whether original or variant, to trickle over to duplicated copies of physical files.
You're right. I should have used "albums" instead of "folders." John Doe correctly stated that there is only one original file and all variants are just edits applied to what you see on the screen.More to your experiment... I would expect that edit variants are treated separately in terms of Album membership. For example, if the original image and variant 1 belong to Album A and Album B, then you remove the original image from Album A, variant 1 should still have membership in Albums A and B. Is that what you will be testing?
It turns out that CO will show all variants of an image even if you add only one variant to an album.
Let's say you have three variants of an image. If you add the second variant to an album, all three variants will show up in that album. You can collapse the variant "stack," but only the first variant in that stack will show in all albums to which the variant stack has been added. So, if you want only the second variant to show up in album A, you can drag that variant to the first position in the variant stack, but that variant will then be the first variant in album B, even if you want the third variant to be displayed in album B. (This is completely different from Aperture's handling of stacks and album picks where the software would allow you to pick any image in a stack to be displayed in any album you choose.)
However, if you create a smart album that searches for a keyword used only by some of the three variants, only the variant(s) with that keyword will show up in the smart album. Those variants that do show up will have a label with the variant number in the corner of the thumbnail (all variants do this, by the way), but they won't show the total number of variants associated with that image (i.e., they might be labeled "2," "3," and "5," even if there are six total variants). (Aperture would always show a label with the number of versions in a stack when the stack was collapsed and the total number of versions even if only some of them were visible in a smart album.)0 -
[quote="PDBreske" wrote:
... if you want only the second variant to show up in album A, you can drag that variant to the first position in the variant stack, but that variant will then be the first variant in album B, even if you want the third variant to be displayed in album B. (This is completely different from Aperture's handling of stacks and album picks where the software would allow you to pick any image in a stack to be displayed in any album you choose.)
Thanks for the report. Aperture's handling of this situation is obviously more sophisticated.
In Media Pro I use regular (not smart) Albums/Catalog Sets to maintain my Web gallery selections (with actual image files, not virtual variants of course). Since CO doesn't have Web gallery tools I suppose this issue is moot for my purposes, but I would consider it a design flaw in CO since Albums should reflect the user's choice of variant(s). And it's one more reason for me to continue using Media Pro as my DAM/catalog.0
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