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Fujifilm profiles for older sensor types

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The initial press release was promising, Capture One supporting Fujifilm and the best had to come. Support for the Film profiles.
Good enough for me to make a start with Capture One and I got onboard with a subscription.
Didn’t mind waiting for the profiles. And finally, the came. But not for the older sensors, the X-e2s is not supported.
There is such a thing as lying by omission and that what happened.
If the initial release had stated “Support for Film profiles is coming, but only for the newer sensors†I never subscribed and saved me some money.
Or Am I mistaken and is support for the profiles coming for older sensor types?
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  • SFA
    This being primarily a User to User forum most of the people who come here will not know the answer to your question and those few who may have some idea will not be able to offer an answer.

    I would suggest that you create a Support Case and ask the question directly to Phase. However they do have a policy of not discussing possible future developments - and although that might be frustrating for everyone I think it makes a lot of sense. I say that based on a number of years experience of managing user requirements for commercial business software in a non-public market and that was something of a challenge to match claimed needs with available resources and different ideas presented by different users to fulfil the same business requirements.

    It might also be worth asking Fuji if they are supporting the idea of making the curves available for older cameras. One might imagine they are keen to see people buy new cameras wherever they can make a sale rather than encourage them to stay with old ones. Whether that would be the case I have no idea but it would be worth considering.

    The question from a Phase point of view is, I would guess, whether there are enough people with the older cameras who are likely to be influenced by the availability of dedicate simulation curves for old school film 'looks' into buying Capture One. If the numbers don't stack up then there is no way to cover the cost of the resource required and that resource would be better deployed elsewhere. On the other hand if Fuji was covering the cost of the effort in some way (assuming it is technically viable of course), that would be less of a concern. Indeed it may be that Fuji would need to supply relevant information in order to facilitate the creation of the curve before they could officially endorse it.

    So the obvious recommendation would be to signal your interest to both Phase and Fuji and hope that others in a similar situation will do the same so that the level of proven interest can be assessed and taken into account camera model by camera model.

    HTH.


    Grant
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  • SFA
    As curves these profiles probably represent a fairly significant piece of work for each camera supported - especially if the specs change a little from one camera to the next.

    I rather suspect that you really have to be into film looks to appreciate them and if you are I'm sure they look great.

    I took a quick look using some supported test files I had on disk and for those files I found nothing to excite me although the result looked very competent and excellent quality as one would expect. It was just that to me they were not motivating. They may not have been the best sample files to appreciate the effects.

    My point is that for many people whether or not these styles exist will have no influence over their decisions about buying or upgrading Fuji cameras. (especially older models presumably no longer available as new from the manufacturer.)

    So the commercial decision vs. the corporate history 'pull' must be a difficult balancing act.

    Feedback from users may help define future progress.

    Grant
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  • M.A.
    It is incredibly disappointing, as I had been looking forward to this since the announcement, and hoping for it before that. I'm an X-T1 and X100 user, so imaging my surprise after installing - and clicking on the curves dropdown with great anticipation, and then... nothing. 🤬 🤬 😭

    [quote="SFA" wrote:
    I rather suspect that you really have to be into film looks to appreciate them and if you are I'm sure they look great.


    The profiles are not meant to look analog (except maybe for Acros), it is a bit of a misnomer actually. Most people misunderstand at first, and reject the idea because it is associated with filters. But it is not that. They're based on decades of color science gained from developing their many different tastes in film for both photography and professional cinema. It's not something that one just adds on top of a photograph, but look at it as tweaking the curves and color response of the sensor before development, not unlike chemical film. This provides a good baseline in look and feel to start from, like one would choose a film in the old days for its character. Many movie directors still do. To me this is cleaner, more consistent, and feels more natural than using styles.
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  • SFA
    [quote="Maurice01" wrote:
    It is incredibly disappointing, as I had been looking forward to this since the announcement, and hoping for it before that. I'm an X-T1 and X100 user, so imaging my surprise after installing - and clicking on the curves dropdown with great anticipation, and then... nothing. 🤬 🤬 😭

    [quote="SFA" wrote:
    I rather suspect that you really have to be into film looks to appreciate them and if you are I'm sure they look great.


    The profiles are not meant to look analog (except maybe for Acros), it is a bit of a misnomer actually. Most people misunderstand at first, and reject the idea because it is associated with filters. But it is not that. They're based on decades of color science gained from developing their many different tastes in film for both photography and professional cinema. It's not something that one just adds on top of a photograph, but look at it as tweaking the curves and color response of the sensor before development, not unlike chemical film. This provides a good baseline in look and feel to start from, like one would choose a film in the old days for its character. Many movie directors still do. To me this is cleaner, more consistent, and feels more natural than using styles.


    Yes indeed. I spotted that and it makes most sense to have it working that way rather than attempt to emulate everything as a style.

    That said there is, possibly, a place for styles if any film fans, who prefer the Fuji looks but are not Fuji camera users, want to try or the same 'look' as their favourite films provide. Or at least a starting point to something close to that look.

    I always tended to use Kodak films so perhaps my appreciation of the FujiFilm look is not as developed (no pun intended) as might be desirable when assessing the benefits of the available profiles.


    Grant
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  • Paul Steunebrink
    Please reference
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  • M.A.
    [quote="Paul_Steunebrink" wrote:
    Please reference

    Bedankt, i did read that in the end. But the 'damage' of anticipation and disappointment had already been done. ☹️

    (This could easily have been prevented by clearly listing the supported models in the announcement, or mention that the support was limited in the first place. Nobody knew it would be on a per-camera basis.)

    Is there any chance that this is just the first batch, and other 'lower priority' models would be added later?

    💡
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  • SFA
    [quote="Maurice01" wrote:
    [quote="Paul_Steunebrink" wrote:
    Please reference

    Bedankt, i did read that in the end. But the 'damage' of anticipation and disappointment had already been done. ☹️

    (This could easily have been prevented by clearly listing the supported models in the announcement, or mention that the support was limited in the first place. Nobody knew it would be on a per-camera basis.)

    Is there any chance that this is just the first batch, and other 'lower priority' models would be added later?

    💡



    This post may be relevant.

    viewtopic.php?f=76&t=29381&p=142332&hilit=fiju+profiles#p142558

    And those that follow it. Notably this one.

    viewtopic.php?f=76&t=29381&p=142332&hilit=fiju+profiles#p142575

    You may already have seen them? If so I apologise for offering them again.


    Grant
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  • M.A.
    Indeed i've seen them.

    I'm pretty sure that the mentioned 'firmware limitation' has only to do with the model name, not actually any technical limitation of the Raw file we end up with. There may be additional metadata added in later models, but at worst that would only prevent automatic selection. Though i don't think so, as Fuji's own software can recognize camera settings in the Raws just fine.

    My question still stands. Fuji may well decide to add additional bodies, and if there's any official word on that i'd love to hear it. They're known for supporting older camera bodies, but may just be testing the waters first, it's just a matter of willingness.

    I remember even one of their own software announcements having a list of supported bodies divided by the date that support would be available. If i'm not mistaken, the newest models got their support first.
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  • SFA
    [quote="Maurice01" wrote:


    I remember even one of their own software announcements having a list of supported bodies divided by the date that support would be available. If i'm not mistaken, the newest models got their support first.


    Which situation is, of course, entirely logical if a vendor wishes to try to leverage some aspect of the loyalty of log term users of their products into the upgrade they they will surely consider at some point - because they are loyal users of the products .... if you see what I mean.

    And if they are using the option to obtain new customers then only the currently available products would really matter to that marketing strategy.

    Frustrating, no doubt, but logical in its way.


    Grant
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  • M.A.
    Thanks, but i wasn't questioning the logic. And Fuji has proven time and time again that they're very successful at doing what would be illogical to most other companies.
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