I never broke a NDA
and never will, but this days I'm glad others did to counter a behaviour which is totally against customer interest because I think it is on the edge of unethical business practice to lure user with questionable marketing claims into buying a software (upgrade) without disclosing what they really will get when it is released.
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100% agreed. This is a very questionable sales tactic.
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Found this comment on Thom Hogan’s website today. Kind of sums up the situation.
“Meanwhile, apparently Capture One doesn't want to be left out of the processing upgrade wars, and is offering a 20% discount checkout code (PREODER2020) for the next version, Capture One 21. But the Capture One folks won't even tell you what you might be getting, as no features have been disclosed, nor will they tell you when you'll get it. Frankly, that's starting to be disrespectful of their customers, in my opinion. "Give me money and I'll eventually give you something" is not a reasonable business practice, it's a cash grab.”
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To those who object to this statement, it is true that anyone with an earlier license can sign up for beta testing and learn what is on offer in C1 21, this misses a more salient point. There are many people who don’t want to disrupt their workflow to install a beta. Without installing the beta, you won’t know what has changed.
So don’t use the semi-public beta as an excuse for Phase One not being forthcoming with what the upgrade brings. I *am* testing, but I test many software applications.0 -
On the other hand, since no one is being forced to sign up for the new release, if folks don't want to commit without knowing what is in it they don't have to.
In the past few years the release point has been quite consistent and, one imagines, largely driven by the need to do general support work for scheduled Mac and Windows "updates" that will invariably force under the hood changes to be engineered.
Similarly the historical release of new cameras form the manufacturers for the "holiday season" has been a little influential. That may not be so significant now that sales of stand alone pro and enthusiast digital cameras, per annum, are so much lower than they were at their peak around ten years ago.
Regular long term C1 users will know of the pattern of event over the past several years and versions. They can make their own decision about the likelihood of what is offered being of value to them if they wish to commit to the offer. They will, no doubt, have a opinions about what has been provided in earlier releases and make their decision based on that. If the savings offered are of significance to them and the changes that they may or may not find really do influence their decisions I'm sure they will be happy to wait and see what is there and not worry to much about saving a few dollars. If they would be likely to upgrade anyway ... those matters will not concern them.
Of course the simplest way to avoid such situations is to follow an approach in a commercial world that offers only a subscription type model (Adobe with many business software supplier along with Microsoft doing the same thing or heading that way) and Apple and other in the "mobile" marketplace kind of doing it by the way things are charged for as part of the buy-in price and support ends after a year or two thus forcing a hardware upgrade with built in "support" in the purchase price.
There are very few "free lunches" out there, although some people, somehow, seem to offer product that is upgraded over time with no direct charge and no apparent indirect charge. I have no idea how they do it for a product with some scale and a large user base and yet still survive. I'm not talking about one person developers or small enthusiast groups but full commercial operations. I would love to understand how that works.
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SFA I can't make decisions on future releases based on what was done in the past since past releases only tell you about the past. It says almost nothing about the path moving forward.
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Without installing the beta, you won’t know what has changed.
I won’t re-enter this discussion as I have come to realize people have made up their minds, but when you download the beta you can simply look at the release notes to know what’s coming without installing it let alone disrupting your workflow.
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is anyone really surprised ?
this company has always shown an arrogant attitude but maybe this has now reached a breaking point as more user see that beside bold marketing claims things are not so rosy in the c1 camp - small improvements at high costs, a fast growing list of unsolved issues and bugs, very slow osx compatibly updates, a growing list of unsupported lenses, outdated technology, a cluttered outdated UI, still no iOS version...
do you really believe SFA this is a recommendation to blindly order an update ? game changing tools ? really ? sounds like late night shopping TV to me.
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@ Kip Vaughan
Quite so.
So for those that on balance are going to update anyway because they have no concern about whether whatever is going to be new in the application will make a difference to their decision there is an opportunity to save a few dollars in the process.
For other, such as yourself in this case, who are more concerned about new content value at this time it's just a matter of waiting to see what is offered and then decide whether to update or not at the early stage. In fact not even that. It's more a matter of deciding whether you want to pay in advance an then update at some future point.
If you do pre-order you will have a little administration to do and save perhaps $30 or so. Get some free styles as well.
If you are not comfortable with that then don't do it. The worst case scenario is that you discover that there is some viral new functionality that you absolutely cannot wait for and you discover that just after the offer and its discount expire.
That would be unfortunate and cost you the $30 but is that really likely to be the case? Is there any new functionality that, if it was introduced, you would absolutely have to have right then but that would not be worth $30?
It's an offer.
It's optional.
There may or may not be later opportunities that give another chance to upgrade and save a few bucks.
This is not exactly a life changing decision that must be made right now ...
As with all beta software - including operating system updates from Apple, Microsoft and all the others - there is no certainty that the contents of software in final pre-release testing, as seen by the testers, will be the same as the software finally released. Some things may be removed and some things may be added. That's just the way things are.
So in reality if one has doubts about the likely value something may deliver (whatever it is), don't buy it at this time.
If one thinks there will probably be value on offer, no matter what is delivered, then go ahead and take advantage of the offer.
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@CSP
See my comment above.
I may be wrong but I still believe that people are able to make up their own minds about whether something will offer them value and whether they need greater certainty before spending their money.
There is no reason for most people to feel any compulsion at all to make a decision at this point if their personal approach to such matter leaves them feeling uncomfortable.
If a typical product marketing offer, seen in many retail situations around the world, is something that people cannot (or will not) rationalise at a basic level (will I be taking a big gamble to save a few bucks?) then the modern world is turning into a very sad place.
I do realise that you seem to have a particular "bee in your bonnet " on matters relating to C1. If I felt the same I would have departed for other options long ago.
But this particular situation is no more than a regular marketing exercise that offer people some small financial advantage IF they feel comfortable about signing up for it.
No more, no less.
It's not the first and likely won't be the last.
Not an issue if a supplier adopts a subscription only policy of course. Maybe the avoidance of this sort of conflict of opinion is one of the reasons that so many software developers seem to be keen to adopt a subscription only formula for their business.
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Hello everyone, with confidence - which part of the new CO21 version should be worth upgrading? I have learned from experience, especially with Capture One, that I will never pay in advance for a new software release announcement. As long as the DAM functionality is not significantly improved and as long as the graphics support on the MAC is not switched to Metal,the "discount" can still be an immoral offer.The new teasers and the glossy pages of the marketing department want to activate the "must have" syndrome and, strangely enough, this works over and over again. As long as the current SW does not show significant improvements in the DAM, I will not give an upgrade - I promise !
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I think the biggest issue with 2021 is that it will be killing off Mojave support which means on top of the pricing for the latest version all sorts of legacy tools will break including Lightroom 6.14 which still has functionality that that C1 has yet to copy in even the latest version of the product. That's a bit of a deal breaker. If they are going to kill off that much legacy software this new update would have to be massive.
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Kip,
Are you writing about an Apple OS update when you mention 2021 and killing off Mojave?
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Yes, Mojave (MacOS 10.14) is the last OS that supports 32-bit so a lot of tools like InDesign CS6 can't run in 10.15. MacOS 11 is getting rid of extension support so there is another whole round of apps that will get killed off. Other design software I run can still run the latest versions on 10.14 like Sketch, Quark XPress, the latest Affinity 1.9 betas, Final Cut Pro, etc. Actually all my other design/photography software.
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No one is forcing you to upgrade your OS.
If you need app X and app X stops working with version Y of the OS you have two choices: do not upgrade to version Y of the OS or convince the vendor of app X to update their app. In practice the latter isn't really a choice -- Adobe is not going to update CS6. If you want to keep using that app dedicate a machine to Mojave while you can. If you have to upgrade your hardware and it comes with a newer OS you can run Mojave and the apps you need in a virtual machine on the new machine.
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I don't have the time to switch back and forth between multiple operating systems. I did that way back and it was terrible. At the time I had to restart operating systems but even when I tried virtualization I couldn't get it to work. I guess I'll just have to stick with C1 20.
This is why it is important to have information other than just "go buy update and we won't have any details about it."
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i will never understand folks which see the need to make arguments against user interests, maybe it is a form of stockholm syndrome, who knows. to me it also seems that at least in the country I do business and probably in the whole EC we have laws against "unfair competition". i´m no lawyer so I don't know if this applies here but this laws include that companies should not make false, misleading or un- verifiable claims in advertising, so this is maybe not just an personal matter as some suggest but a question of customer protection and even when this is totally legal it is still totally unfair to customer which deserve the right to know what they are paying for ! the least they should do is to include a money back guaranty in their offer !
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Kip, won’t 21 support MacOS 10.14? The current version supports 10.13-10.15, so 21 supporting 10.14-10.16 would make sense.
I’d really like to see them change their release schedule so both the last version gets to support the new MacOS and the new version supports it right from the bat, but I suspect the chance of that is pretty close to zero.
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@ emile maybe you are right but does your restaurant also want you pay in advance and do they advertise the surprise menu as a game changer ;-)
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@csp haha, no they don’t but they don’t offer 20% off either :-). I removed the comment as I deplore all the bickering.
Where does Phase state it’s a game changer? Maybe I missed something. The mail I got was pretty bland and without any great claims. Just 20% off if you pay in advance, like last year.
I totally get that this offer is not for everyone and that people react that Phase should first tell ‘m what’s in it before they pay, but I still feel the offer is entirely optional and therefore hardly worth the fuss.
As for me, I know myself. Always want to have the new gadget. I know I’ll fork over eventually, as I have for the past 13 or so years, so I grab the 20% now instead of later, even though I share the same grievances about the DAM capabilities as Helmut above does and think there are other areas that need improvement. Then again, I had those qualms about Adobe too, when I used their products (next to C1).
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@ emile for me adobe is like an old friend I use PS more than 25 years but I favour smaller companies when ever possible. with c1 I have a hate / love relationship but in the last year it turned to pure hate because the actually version is still full of bugs and the versions before were not really great either. I am a longtime user , started with version 3 but I more and more see that the raw software I use most becomes a pain to work with. reality is that from all of my friends which are photographers too I´m the last one using c1. I still hope they can do better and focus on their users needs, it is an interesting and fast software in the hand of bad management. and btw dxo claims to be revolutionary and in fact they are, dxo outperforms c1 even at iso 100 when you push the shadows, it will become interesting to find out if the c1 marketing claim is also true.....
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Emile, someone posted a page that had details on 21 and they listed MacOS 10.15.6 as minimum requirements. I suppose Phase One may respond back by saying system requirements may change by the time the product ships but that only proves the point that they shouldn't be advertising products where major requirements, features, and bug fixes are still up in the air. Catalina breaks even more legacy support. That is why it is so important for companies to detail these things instead of just "pay us." Also someone else with older computers than mine may be concerned about hardware requirements.
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Also Emile that is the problem with looking at past software to judge what a company will do in the future. They may have some reason that makes sense for them to go from support for three versions of MacOS to support two versions. Some titles will only run on the very latest OS. Also couldn't they fit another point release between 13.1.x and 14? They can't do a 13.2 to fix more glitches and OS support?
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@ Kip, on the risk of breaking an NDA, I believe the someone and the page you are referring to have it wrong and that you’ll be fine.
I concur that they should at the minimum note the software and hardware requirements when they offer a pre-order discount, if they want to avoid disappointing their customers. I'm also totally with you on the 13.2 fix to get future OS support. Better: they should shift their release schedule to not coincide with Apple’s schedule.
For me Phase has always been pretty reliable in the past, both in good and bad ways, including MacOS support several versions back. Great image quality; great colours; easy to get to a presentable end product; lacking in the database; slow to fix bugs; slow to support a new OS. I've sort of accepted the shortcomings and have managed to work around them. Maybe I shouldn't. I still prefer it to the competition.
@ csp - I've been interested in DxO for a while but I've switched from Canon to Fujifilm a few years back after retiring from full-time event photography and DxO just refuses to support their sensors, so that's a no-go for me.
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@emile
dxo is just another sign in which direction software development will go. I like c1 for its speed or easy LCC handling but the advantage in image quality is gone. as many others I have thought AI is only a new buzz word but I was wrong because now I can see real benefits for my work. adobe enhanced detail was the first ai based demosaicing offer but deepPrime is superior and simply amazing. beside better high iso NR I see in my tests that deepPrime also eliminates the small advantage MF cameras held over their 35mm counterparts with similar pixel count. pushed shadows are now impressive clean with ultra fine grain and zero artefacts at low iso. from my test I do not see a disadvantage using dxo linear dng files with c1 everything behaves similar to the original raw.0
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